Return of the Emblem: Chat

[Phoenix]

Can't you guys have these arguments in the evening

[spoiler=Regarding Previous Argument]I hadn't finished with the updates and went to bed instead ... that's why the crossbow and combat knife were mysteriously nerfed with no warning.

Drawbacks: I can't counter, can't use any weapons that don't allow me to use SKL as a primary weapon, and have to put up with the stupid ranged counter rules instead of the bows flat-out 'no counter on first attack' rule which has already cost me at least one death.

Somebody just wants free attacks. Why on earth should you not be countered when using a crossbow(ranged weapon) if someone else is using a ranged weapon as well? That'd be as bad as not being countered by a melee attack when you yourself are wielding a melee weapon. I'm sure if it's really 'stupid' you can point out why. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, though.

If you don't want to be countered ever ... start thinking about counterless weapons like grenades or the blunderbuss(BOTH SKILL BASED WEAPONS--THE FORMER ALREADY AVAILABLE I might add).

Advantages: SKL isn't worthless to me now.

It's skl--it's never worthless. An example, wouldn't it have been nice if Shadrak had enough base skill to only need to pop ONE stimulant instead of TWO during that last fight? Amon could have popped just one and gotten the same hit results with lower mt.

Seriously, in the tier below the crossbow we have weapons that allow people to add on MAG to their STR and has the option to toggle between melee and ranged, a weapon that allows half of the STR stat to be used for DEF as well, a weapon that both boosts hit and allows for amazing doubling (especially if upgraded), one that allows people to freaking alter the outcome of dice rolls of their enemy, ones with 25% MT boosts, a weapon that does the exact same thing as the crossbow except doubles far easier and all I have to give up is one or two rounds of non-counters that didn't matter anyways the way things were going, a ranged weapon that had faster doubling and one that a character could switch out for another weapon with no downsides if he wasn't fighting at range, and of those, the ONLY one Robin could even use if she were to give up her crossbow is the combat knife and I am 100% positive I would have to buy something else to even gain access to it in the first place.

That's one of the longest sentences I've ever seen. By the way, the only thing you need to use a combat knife are 60 points, and a free special weapons slot(you don't have to buy what you already have). Being 100% positive to the contrary isn't going to change that.

Seriously, not having STR is a pretty big downside in of itself as I am shut out from a multitude of weapons. Now on top of that my one advantage is being nerfed?

This is not a case of 'hose' the Robin. Please don't treat it that way. It's bad enough only people directly affected by an issue will argue against it(like who would say anything if slim weapon damage was nerfed even further--down to 75%?). Don't take it to the next level by blowing your personal stake in the matter out of proportion.

And Cynthia, talking to people helps a LOT because it allows you to identify what the problem is, how to address it, and if there is even one in the first place.

It allows us to get bogged down and accomplish nothing after a long IRC debate is what it allows.

I'm not having any semblance of a 'committee'. It's impossible to keep pace and get things done that way. If Luna and I do something that you guys don't agree with, we're happy to discuss or even debate it(civilly), but the final decision's ours. We're not unreasonable so don't treat us like we are, please.

Bring Z back, his show was hilarious!

I miss the Ether show. Old school.

... anyway. I don't mind a crossbow upgrade, either, but I don't have any ideas for one right now. As always, you're all free to make suggestions and stuff and we'll review them, etc.

I'll have to leave too, but only for a couple of hours later this evening.

[Snowy_One]

Here we go... Arguing time.

Somebody just wants free attacks. Why on earth should you not be countered when using a crossbow(ranged weapon) if someone else is using a ranged weapon as well? That'd be as bad as not being countered by a melee attack when you yourself are wielding a melee weapon. I'm sure if it's really 'stupid' you can point out why. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, though.

If you don't want to be countered ever ... start thinking about counterless weapons like grenades or the blunderbuss(BOTH SKILL BASED WEAPONS--THE FORMER ALREADY AVAILABLE I might add).

For starters, it's false advertising. Right in the sign-up topic it says 'Ranged: Enemies may only counter a ranged user once every two phases'. Right there, plain as day, then suddenly, out of nowhere, ranged units can counter other ranged units? Not to mention that, in order to get this, I have to ignore the bows special ability which is a flat-out ignore counters for the first strike on a enemy group, no questions.

It's skl--it's never worthless. An example, wouldn't it have been nice if Shadrak had enough base skill to only need to pop ONE stimulant instead of TWO during that last fight? Amon could have popped just one and gotten the same hit results with lower mt.

Without a weapon that allows you to use SKL as MT, it's worthless whenever you fight a enemy with low evade. It contributes nothing to evade, no advantage to anything outside of hit, and you need it for when you throw the dodgy enemies at us. Without a SKL-damage weapon, luck is more useful against low-evade enemies.

That's one of the longest sentences I've ever seen. By the way, the only thing you need to use a combat knife are 60 points, and a free special weapons slot(you don't have to buy what you already have). Being 100% positive to the contrary isn't going to change that.

The only reason I'm not doing that is because Robin is already established as a archer character-wise and it would make no sense at all for her to suddenly abandon her bow to use her skinning knife. If I had known of this beforehand, I would have made her a more capable knife-fighter at least, if not outright a thief. As I said, the only thing I'm really losing is the occasional uncountable attack, but that is more than made up for by the doubling edge.

This is not a case of 'hose' the Robin. Please don't treat it that way. It's bad enough only people directly affected by an issue will argue against it(like who would say anything if slim weapon damage was nerfed even further--down to 75%?). Don't take it to the next level by blowing your personal stake in the matter out of proportion.

You came out of nowhere and nerfed the crossbow, of which there were only, like, two primary users of which one is my only character who was designed around its use and not expect me to take this very personally?

It allows us to get bogged down and accomplish nothing after a long IRC debate is what it allows.

I'm not having any semblance of a 'committee'. It's impossible to keep pace and get things done that way. If Luna and I do something that you guys don't agree with, we're happy to discuss or even debate it(civilly), but the final decision's ours. We're not unreasonable so don't treat us like we are, please.

Okay. I disagree heavily with your nerf. It hurts my character in a significant way, came out of nowhere, and feels far too much like a punishment than a fix of a 'broken' mechanic.

... anyway. I don't mind a crossbow upgrade, either, but I don't have any ideas for one right now. As always, you're all free to make suggestions and stuff and we'll review them, etc.

I already suggested one of giving a upgrade that puts it back up to 100% SKL used for MT.

[Phoenix]

Here we go... Arguing time.

Indeed

For starters, it's false advertising.

No no no, this:

Stimulant: 20

An incredible strength boosting drug that will give you the strength of an ox and the precision of a ... really precise thing. It has three uses per purchase and each use stacks. Order now and kill those pesky sword masters, guaranteed.

That's false advertising, you just didn't do enough homework.

Right in the sign-up topic it says 'Ranged: Enemies may only counter a ranged user once every two phases'. Right there, plain as day, then suddenly, out of nowhere, ranged units can counter other ranged units?

What the hell did you think would happen when two ranged weapons met, rock-paper-scissors?

Not to mention that, in order to get this, I have to ignore the bows special ability which is a flat-out ignore counters for the first strike on a enemy group, no questions.

You want the bow ability use an actual bow; you want the crossbow's use the crossbow.

Without a weapon that allows you to use SKL as MT, it's worthless whenever you fight a enemy with low evade.

*An

Well it's a good thing there are skill weapons then, isn't it?

And I'm sure you feel sorry for those poor str/skl characters who need to invest in both just to wield a bow while Robin's can just pump skl and use the free stat for whatever

It contributes nothing to evade, no advantage to anything outside of hit, and you need it for when you throw the dodgy enemies at us. Without a SKL-damage weapon, luck is more useful against low-evade enemies.

Hit contributing to evade would be weird ... and I'd be crucified.

Also how is luck more useful against low evade enemies without skl based weapons around?

The only reason I'm not doing that is because Robin is already established as a archer character-wise and it would make no sense at all for her to suddenly abandon her bow to use her skinning knife.

Probably less lethal than shooting people with a crossbow ... which was essentially a flintlock pistol if it landed a crit

Besides, she's already using a crossbow as a homemade hunting bow, or whatever. IC's nice but it had NOTHING to do with with your weapon choice for Robin the first time(since it's not IC for her to use a damn crossbow). You chose the crossbow over a regular one because it's easier to build a character around(I assume)(and more powerful afterward frankly), not because it was IC. IC has NOTHING to do with the weapon she's been using, period.

If I had known of this beforehand, I would have made her a more capable knife-fighter at least, if not outright a thief. As I said, the only thing I'm really losing is the occasional uncountable attack, but that is more than made up for by the doubling edge.

If you love the combat knife so much, get one and justify it just like the last time. Another idea might be to look at the advantages of a crossbow instead of focusing in on this all consuming loss of 2 mt.

Just carrying this skill weapon let's you invest more in evasion. Your dice luck may be poor but that doesn't count against it.

You came out of nowhere and nerfed the crossbow, of which there were only, like, two primary users of which one is my only character who was designed around its use and not expect me to take this very personally?

It's not that I don't expect you to take it personally ... it's just illogical to do so, and I wish you wouldn't. You should already know that this isn't about nerfing Robin, nor was the knife nerf centered around Amon. We're not after Robin so she should not even be a topic of discussion barring the need for examples. Instead, you're making this entirely about Robin.

Okay. I disagree heavily with your nerf. It hurts my character in a significant way, came out of nowhere, and feels far too much like a punishment than a fix of a 'broken' mechanic.

This is exactly my previous point. It's all about Robin in your eyes so your argument won't have a thing to do with balance which is what Luna and I were really going for.

I already suggested one of giving a upgrade that puts it back up to 100% SKL used for MT.

'Puts back'? It's an upgrade, man

I've already noted that down, by the way.

[Mercakete]

@ upgraded crossbow: Well, how about that automatic crossbow Weyland made? I can't think of much that can be done to upgrade a crossbow in-rp besides that. Maybe the crossbow can be an upgrade from a slingshot?

I'm not entirely serious about this, as you might be able to tell. I'd just accept the new crossbow as is. *shrug*

[Zsword]

If Arbalasts don't exist there's always those for an upgraded Crossbow.

[roymbrog]

If the upgraded Crossbow is tier 4 I move for full MT. However, I also had some other possible ideas too (cause, you know, tier4 and all):

- For every x amounts of str a character has, ignore one point of the target's defense?

- Ranged ALL the time 8D

- Ignore or reduce some bonus or something, like the ones given by defensive items such as shields.

- Do more damage to defenders or some such

[Phoenix]

What do you mean ranged all the time? (assumes completely counterless aside from other ranged weapons)

how about a crit modifier?

That reminds me, I've still got to add a thing to the list

[Snowy_One]

Actually, a crit modifier would be kinda cool. I know it wouldn't happen though. I mean, just think of the pain it could inflict then.

[Phoenix]

It's not like a crossbow can't already crit without them.

[Phoenix]

UPDATE:

-Crossbows have been amended

Specifics: Instead of dealing full damage based on skill, they now only deal 80%*shot* damage.

-Combat Knives have been amended

Specifics: Instead of only requiring 130% of an opponents AS to double, they now require 150% to double (nobody cares ).

-Killer Weapons have been amended

Specifics: They now only cost 70 points to purchase instead of 80.

-Composite Weapon Series added.

Specifics: Composite Weapons(T) and Synthetic Weapons(T) added to the full item list.

I'll have to handle the t4 crossbow later once it's actually made.

[roymbrog]

I have a question about the composite series. By defensive bonuses, do you only mean things like shields and mount armor? Or does this include things like the reduction of crit damage armor gives and negation of crits by iron rune? Also, it ignores bonuses from shield tomes and the like, yes?

EDIT: Also, they're not on the requirements list. Was that intentional? 8D

EDIT: EDIT: Whoops, completely missed your question up there.

What do you mean ranged all the time? (assumes completely counterless aside from other ranged weapons)

Yeah, that's kinda what I mean. Like pseudo siege weapon, but it can still be countered, and the user can still be hit without having to close in or such nonsense.

Edited November 8, 2011 by roymbrog

[GoD]

What I believe happened to Raquel.... parody:

(Inside the enemy HQ)

Main Villain: Perfect!! We now have Jethro's girl, who is totally and completely useless

Raquel: HEY!!!

MV: And the Fire emblem... with this we can enact our evil plan.

Raquel: Actually, I dropped it~

MV: :(

[Phoenix]

@ Roy

It's about specific defense bonuses:

Anything in the special item slot that provides a numerical def/res bonus is negated. It only ignores the bonus def/res provided by that equipment.

Eg:

The 30% def boost by Iron Shield ... ignored

Though now that you mention it, they could probably crit normally against crit softening armor. I'll keep that in mind.

Also Luna and I haven't gotten around to level requirements just yet-*shot by a prematurely purchased composite bow*

@ Disky

[Zsword]

kay, I'm going to be gone from Thursday to Sunday night, most likely monday.

Shad is unconcious, and Zel and Krystal are too bummed to really say anything.

[GoD]

No worries Z. I shall take Z to the infirmary..... but, I wonder why Selene wants to rescue Raquel?

[roymbrog]

Because she wants to take the emblem from the bad guys so she can be the new bad guy :3

[GoD]

Really!? I thought she was addicted to pink hair and young girls?

[Phoenix]

I wonder if anyone ever reads those side scenes involving characters like her

[roymbrog]

Hey, I wasn't here. I have an excuse.

[Acacia Sgt]

Hey, I read them... lol

[Mercakete]

I read them too and you know it.

[Phoenix]

... then maybe I'll keep writing them even though it's more effort than leaving things offscreen and shocking the tar out of you guys later

Edited November 11, 2011 by Phoenix

[Mercakete]

... then maybe I'll keep writing them even though it's less effort than leaving things offscreen and shocking the tar out of you guys later

Even though it's less effort than?

[Phoenix]

Look again, THE SENTENCE HAS NOW BECOME CORRECT.

[Mercakete]

Nothing is impossible when you have the edit function. I'm on a computer.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Mercakete