eclipse Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 There is no way that Bord should be ahead of Cord or nearly on par with Ogma. Ogma can use an armourslayer as well as Bord can use a hammer and actually double with it. And Cord's growths are far superior to Bord's, and Cord doesn't need skill, because enemies have little to no avoid in this game. Armorslayer inflicts WTD (which means less damage), and Ogma doesn't take to lance hits very well. If I have class B males, they tend to go directly to axes, unless I'm somehow convinced that a sword/bow is better for the map/their growths. This doesn't happen very often. Cord's problem is getting to the point where his superior growths kick in. Since I'm in Draft Tournament mode, it means feeding him kills, which is best saved for gaiden chapters, and/or newer recruits. Bord can immediately start Hammering things the second he shows up. Cord's stupidly low axe level really hurts his case. The sooner you can start Hammering things, the better (Chapters 5-8 have armors on the throne, and there's several more after them). Even if the Hammer isn't useful before Chapter 5, I can think of two axes that are extremely useful that Bord can wield and Cord must work towards. Axes in general tend to have bad Hit, so I'll take the extra Skill. This goes double for things on a throne. Bord's stupid high Skill allowed me to do one monumentally silly Endgame move that I wouldn't attempt with Cord: Emergency Parthia against Medeus on H2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Even if the Hammer isn't useful before Chapter 5, I can think of two axes that are extremely useful that Bord can wield and Cord must work towards. Ummm... Hand Axe and Steel Axe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Ummm... Hand Axe and Steel Devil Axe? Fix'd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Armorslayer inflicts WTD (which means less damage), and Ogma doesn't take to lance hits very well. If I have class B males, they tend to go directly to axes, unless I'm somehow convinced that a sword/bow is better for the map/their growths. This doesn't happen very often. Bord has one less base defence than Ogma (in their base classes, and Bord isn't reclassing to Merc anytime soon, nor should Ogma reclass to fighter), and a 10% less defence growth. They'll take roughly the same damage anyway. Coupled with equal HP growths, Bord's durability is never going to be better than Ogma. Oh, and Ogma is doubling with an armourslayer, while Bord is hitting once with a Hammer. They'll be doing about equal damage. Cord's problem is getting to the point where his superior growths kick in. Since I'm in Draft Tournament mode, it means feeding him kills, which is best saved for gaiden chapters, and/or newer recruits. Bord can immediately start Hammering things the second he shows up. Cord's stupidly low axe level really hurts his case. The sooner you can start Hammering things, the better (Chapters 5-8 have armors on the throne, and there's several more after them). Even if the Hammer isn't useful before Chapter 5, I can think of two axes that are extremely useful that Bord can wield and Cord must work towards. Cord doubles everything except the boss and maybe the hunter in Normal mode. Yes, he's even doubling thieves. I don't see why we have to feed him kills, unlike our friend Bord. And what exactly is Bord using the hammer on before chapter 5, when your cavs can one round knights in NM, and Bord isn't even going to be doubling them. On average, he needs to get to level 8 to be able to use the hammer without attack speed loss. And Cord needs to swing his axe 30 times to hit D in axes. That's 15 battles. That's easily doable early in chapter 4. And promotion fixes Cord's skill forever, as the only class he should be is a hero. Even reclassing to a Hero won't help Bord's speed. Axes in general tend to have bad Hit, so I'll take the extra Skill. This goes double for things on a throne. Bord isn't getting to the throne before Marth anyway. Or he shouldn't be. And Knights have nonexistant avoid. Bord's stupid high Skill allowed me to do one monumentally silly Endgame move that I wouldn't attempt with Cord: Emergency Parthia against Medeus on H2. A Level 20/13 Warrior Cord with an A in bows has (100 + 12 + 11 + 5) = 128 hit with Parthia, + a possible 10 more hit if Bord, Barts, or Ogma are in the vicinity. Medeus on H3 has roughly (25 + 20) = 50 avoid, still leaving Cord with a 78-88% hit rate, while a 20/13 Warrior Bord with A in bows will have (100 + 18 + 5 + 5) 128 displayed hit. OMG ITS THE SAME. By the way, I am not trying to be critical, I enjoy reading your ratings, I just want to bring up some points. If you want me to pull up some Ogma with armorslayer vs Bord with Hammer numbers, I will. Or hell, even Marth with Rapier. Edited January 20, 2011 by General_Horace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Hm...Caeda didn't get a 10 in hard mode? Now I'm interested to see if anyone will. I think Sedgar is about as gamebreaking a unit as Caeda on hard mode, but you have to get him a couple of levels and increase his weapon ranks before he's useful. Even if the rest of your team is terrible sans a unit or two (like mine was) his endgame is absolutely clutch. Edited January 20, 2011 by Xander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.M. Gei Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 What about General-reclassed Sedgar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 That's also part of the reason why he's so great. But even as a general you have to give him a couple of levels before he starts getting pinged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 By the way, I am not trying to be critical, I enjoy reading your ratings, I just want to bring up some points. If you want me to pull up some Ogma with armorslayer vs Bord with Hammer numbers, I will. Or hell, even Marth with Rapier. Sure, calculations are always good! You'll need to take account some weapon ranks, which change depending on the mode you're on (for example, someone before Chapter 9 was walking around with A lances). Assume no forges for anything, etc, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Alright, some calcs. I'm just ballparking the boss stats for the most part, but they should be fairly accurate. Our first Knight comes along in chapter 4, and Bord has no business getting there in time to kill it, as Marth is either running across the river, (the knight doesn't matter in this case), running across the bridge (after a cav gets the knight moving/kills it) or is recruiting Merric. Neither Ogma nor Bord/Cord should be there. They are almost better off getting exp from the eastern group of enemies. Chapter 5 comes along, and we have our first important knights to clear out. Bord clearly wins against these knights, as he doubles and kills both. He also hits the boss reasonably hard, but there is no one on the team barring Excalibur!Wendall or Wing Spear Shiida that can 0HKO this guy. Adv: Bord Chapter 6, a chapter loaded with knights. (Well, 3) Let's see how our characters are doing right now. Unit Lvl Hp Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res Wep Ogma 10 27.4 8.4 13.4 13.8 5.4 7.2 0 B Swords Bord 6 23.6 10.2 5.8 7.4 1.85 5.4 0 C Axes Cord 7 24 9.5 6.0 11.0 7.0 5.5 0 D Axes Why give Ogma extra levels? He is probably grabbing some bosskills, and more kills in general due to better offence. Bord is mostly used for 1-2 range, and will be weakening stuff for others to kill, and he isn't doubling, so Cord gets 1 extra level here. The knights here have 29-30 HP, 16 Atk, 3 AS, and 11 def. I'll assume they have a B in lances. Damage is only reduced if the enemy's weapon rank is A. Ogma @ Silver Sword hits for (8+12+2-11) 11 X 2 22 Damage, at 100% Hit. He is also 3HKO'd exactly at a reliable hit% Bord @ Hammer hits for (10+27-11) 26 Damage, at 82% hit and doesn't double due to being weighed down by the hammer. Bord is also 3RKO'd, so neither are in danger here. Fairly similar damage output, and 82% is still somewhat reliable. Not putting Cord here, as he does poor damage in contrast. Neither should be taking on the boss here, they can't make it to the throne on time. Chapter 6x has no knights, and these guys won't be getting a ton of training here. Chapter 7 has a few that will be weakened before any of them arrive, and Ogma and Cord double the Cavs, but, admittably, all three 2RKO, unless Ogma pulls out Silver. Chapter 8 has one knight and Roger, and the reinforcements should never exist. Bord, unless he has hit B in axes, 3RKO's the cavs, while Ogma and Cord 2RKO due to doubling. Chapter 10 Bord cannot reach the throne before Marth, while Ogma can, although it is impractiacal. Bord and Ogma 3RKO the cavs, but Bord has iffy hit, while Cord 2RKO's with Steel, but also has an iffy hitrate. Chapter 11 is ballistae land. Chapter 12 however, has knights. Unit Lvl Hp Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res Wep Ogma 17/1 39.7 13.2 18.8 17.9 8.2 10.6 3 A Swords E Axe Bord 12 29 13.5 8.5 8.0 4.85 6.0 0 B Axes Cord 13 28.8 12.5 7.2 13.4 9.4 6.1 0 C Axes Oh, look! Lots of Knights! This mean Bord is awesome now right! Well, he's decent, but Ogma and Cord are better or equal. I don't even need to post stats here to show who is winning. Ogma can 0RKO with an armorslayer, and is far more durable that the other two. Bord borderline doubles the knights with the Hammer (if he hasn't proc'd speed, he won't double), and his Hit is only slightly better than Cord's due to the weapon rank bonuses. All in all, they all one shot the knights. And Ogma can destroy everything else on the map as well. Chapter 12x they will see little action. Chapter 13 is also ballistae land. Bord however, needs 9 Speed to double some ballistaes, and the odds of that happening are low. Chapter 14 has some knights at the start, but Cord's growths have picked up to a point where Bord is left in the dust. Let's take a look at around chapter 16, where they could be promoting. I'm not including Ogma anymore, as he's destroyed them so badly earlygame that it doesn't even matter anymore. Both are heroes. Unit Lvl Hp Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res Wep Bord 20/1 38.2 18.7 21.1 13.8 7.3 10.8 0 D Sword A Axes Cord 20/1 36.4 17.0 17.6 21.2 12.2 10.8 0 D Sword C Axes As you can see, the difference is astounding. Cord is doubling everything on the map in H5, so he'll be doubling everything on H3. Bord only doubles the Boss and Generic General, that Cord can take out anyway. As you can see, promotion has fixed Cord's Hit, which was never terrible anyway due to decent luck that Bord lacks. They have similar durability, Bord has slightly more HP, but Cord has 10 more avo. Do you see my point, or do I have to keep going, or go back and add more detail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 This is more guesswork than calculation. Gimme a bit to finish up what I'm currently doing, then I'll go back and take stats for H2 (since I don't want to rip my hair out over H3). I'm currently on Chapter 14 right now, and the only class B males I have are Castor and Cord, and the latter is turning out way the hell over average. Level-wise, I don't think my characters turned out like that. Here's a snippet from the most recent draft tournament I did. I had Ogma and Bord, with Ogma reclassed to Pirate for axe levels (and because I really needed indirect attackers). In this run, Bord's a bit Speed blessed. Chapter 5: Name Class Level HP STR MAG SKL SPD LUK DEF RES Ogma Pirate 8.29 28 9 0 4 8 5 5 0 Bord Fighter 6.00 23 9 0 6 8 3 6 0 Chapter 6: Name Class Level HP STR MAG SKL SPD LUK DEF RES Ogma Pirate 8.95 28 9 0 4 8 5 5 0 Bord Fighter 7.52 24 10 0 6 8 3 6 0 Chapter 6x: Name Class Level HP STR MAG SKL SPD LUK DEF RES Ogma Pirate 9.40 29 9 0 4 9 6 5 0 Bord Mercenary 9.31 21 10 0 14 11 4 9 0 Chapter 7: Name Class Level HP STR MAG SKL SPD LUK DEF RES Ogma Pirate 10.10 30 10 0 4 9 7 5 0 Bord Fighter 9.74 25 11 0 7 8 4 7 0 (Ogma hits D axes in Chapter 8, but I'm skipping to. . .) Chapter 12: Name Class Level HP STR MAG SKL SPD LUK DEF RES Ogma Pirate 13.38 33 13 0 6 10 9 7 0 Bord Hunter 12.42 24 13 0 12 9* 4 8 0 Lastly, keep in mind that these are DRAFT rankings, so it's not always safe to assume that you've got Caeda, Wendell, or someone else who can rip through armors with ease. My boss-killer in the earlier chapters is probably Marth. It also means I stall on gaiden chapters to level those units that fall behind, whether it be in level or weapon rank. I think I need solid numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 First of all, why is Ogma a pirate. That defeats the purpose of him. Hold on, i'll see what I can dig up from past drafts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 First of all, why is Ogma a pirate. That defeats the purpose of him. Hold on, i'll see what I can dig up from past drafts. Axe rank, and because I was kinda desperate for a second axe dude. My team also had Jagen (very mobile Armorslayer) and Hardin (Silver Lance the Second). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Jagen does as much to a knight with an armorslayer as with a silver lance, and he's better off as a dracoknight. For future reference, anything other than Hunter or Merc wrecks Ogma because of his speed growth. I saw Mist drafted Bord and Cord in the h3 draft, but Bord was sacrificed in chapter 3, so ... EDIT: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=21850&st=100 Bord and Ogma were drafted onto the same team here, Ogma was always at least 3 levels greater than Bord. Ogma is great earlygame to lategame. Bord is decent earlygame and bad lategame. He just doesn't have the speed growth to keep up. And personally, I think you are overestimating the hammer, especially on normal mode. A steel lance cav can finish a knight on normal mode. And as i've already stated, Bord lacks the strength/speed to one shot knights with the hammer without speedwings on H3 anyway. And it is unfair to compare an axe user Ogma to Bord, as the only class Ogma should be in in normal chapters (excluding gaidens) on a draft run is Merc/Hero, or Horseman. The one extra square of move is highly underrated, and Levin swords exist, and still do a guarenteed 14 damage if Ogma doubles, which will be more than the one Hand Axe hit Bord will do. And honestly, I don't know how NM Ogma got a 7, the same as Bord. Ogma is better than Bord earlygame, and obviously beats him lategame, as he beats him significantly in HP, and speed, slightly in Strength,lolluck and defence, and Bord wins in lolskill, which is pretty useless in this game. And the skill lead is nonexistant as Ogma is another high skill unit himself. Edited January 20, 2011 by General_Horace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 Hmmm. . .lemme dig up a bit more info (this time, one where Abel/Cain/Frey wasn't recruited). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I would be happy to test this if you would like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 Ground rules: 1. H2, so I don't give myself gray hairs. 2. Choose two of Ogma, Bord, and Cord. 3. Grab a draft team. 4. Replace two early characters with them, giving preference to the Altean horse guys. 5. Can you grab the boss stats and weapon ranks for Chapters 5-8 and 10? You can also grab data from the scrub armors, but the throne scares me far more than the rest of the terrain. 6. Usual draft rules. 7. Can you post your levels after the chapters where Hammer is useful? If you want to do a full stat dump, go ahead. If your character gains weapon ranks, please note that, too. 8. Don't forget to buy at least one more hammer! I'll pick the third one that you didn't, and one other, just as a cross-test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) I will, I'll record it, to show I'm not being biased towards Ogma... generating team.... Ogma, Bord, Gordin, Wendall, Narbal, Vyland, Roger, Jake, Lorenz, Est Is that acceptable? Edited January 20, 2011 by General_Horace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 Ah, thanks. I'm stuck with my trusty cartridge, so no recordings. I'll treat this like a normal draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Also, should we punt this over to another topic, to so we don't clutter up your ratings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 Uh, sure! I'll go make one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) Just finished yet another draft. . .so I'm taking a break. Julian + Thiefly thief (3) + Sexy portrait bases (1.5 on Normal, 2.5 on Hard) + Grows like Marth (1 on Normal, .5 on Hard) - Sword lock (2) - Cannot reclass (1) Overall: 7.5/10 Hard Mode: 8/10 Door keys can get expensive. Julian can get chests and doors, while your combat units do more useful things. On Hard, his adjusted 11 Speed means he can attack the boss without being doubled on Chapter 3 (but he'll most likely be 2RKO'd, so don't be reckless). As a fighter, he is scary once he's able to wield the Armorslayer. Starting at E swords doesn't help him in the least. Lena + Female (1.5) + Staffbot (1.5, Hard only) + Can immediately use Mend and Physic (1 on Normal, 1.5 on Hard) + Crazy LCK and RES (.5 on Normal, 1 on Hard) + Decent MAG growth as a mage (.5, Normal only) + Costs no turns to recruit (1) - Negative personal HP growth (.5 on Normal, 1 on Hard) - Starts with Warp (1, Hard only) - As a Cleric, all growths that aren't LCK and RES bite (1) - Stupid starting position (.5) Overall: 7.5/10 Hard Mode: 8/10 On Normal Mode, her starting stuff isn't as big of a deal. On anything besides Normal, you really want to have a healer, and if you didn't pick up Wrys, she is useless on Chapter 3 (the place where she's needed the most, IMO). Navarre + C rank swords right when you need it (1 on Normal, 2.5 on Hard) + Killing Edge (.5 on Normal, 2 on Hard) + Enough base Speed to be useful on Chapter 3 (.5 on Normal, 1 on Hard) + Class A male (1.5 on Normal, 2 on Hard or if you're on Normal and he's your only class A male so far) - Facepalm Strength growth (1, Hard only) - Cannot wield Killing Edge without AS loss (1, Hard only) - In a rather awkward position when recruited (.5) - No personal Skill or Speed, which means reclassing to Cavalier for range will be painful (1 on Normal, 2 on Hard) Overall: 7/10 Normal, and the only class A male on Chapter 3: 7.5/10 Hard Mode: 8/10 Navarre on Killing Edge is very deadly! However, he's halfway across the map when you recruit him, so getting him to the boss on Normal probably won't happen. On Hard, he needs to wield an Iron Sword or risk being doubled. Once reclassing is available, he's either stuck with his sword, or stuck on a horse with no Skill or Speed to his name. Edited January 28, 2011 by eclipse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I am a bit confused to how you gave Julian a plus for having growths like Marth, when you gave Marth a minus for having iffy growths. Julian is like a weaker, faster, less durable Marth without a Prf weapon. But Marth is a Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 I am a bit confused to how you gave Julian a plus for having growths like Marth, when you gave Marth a minus for having iffy growths. Julian is like a weaker, faster, less durable Marth without a Prf weapon. But Marth is a Lord. Marth absolutely needs to be on the front lines, in order to get to the throne. He has to be strong, or it costs you turns. Julian has more wiggle room than Marth. If he turns out godly, you have another sword dude to your name. If not, he can still open chests/doors/bridges. Besides, look at his competition (Rickard). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 That makes a lot more sense, I was thinking too literally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) . . .and with that, Them From Chapter 4! Merric + Excalibur (1 on Normal, 2 on Hard) + ZOMG base growths (1 on Normal, 1.5 on Hard) + Good, versatile bases (1 on Normal, 2 on Hard) + Can reclass VERY freely (.5 on Normal, 1.5 on Hard) - Costs a turn to recruit (.5, Normal only) - Starts as a mage (1 on Normal, 2 on Hard, 3 if you're on Hard and you are short on class A males) - No personal Strength growth (1, Hard only) - Somewhat underleveled (1, Hard only) Overall: Normal: 7/10 Hard: 8/10 Hard, and you are short on class A males: 7/10 If you do not have too many Javelin chuckers to your name, Merric can reclass to Cavalier. . .but he'll be relying on class growths for Strength. Merric's growths are such that he can get away with reclassing to Cavalier, and he'll end up super-tanky (the only non-Generals that come close to 80% HP and 35% DEF growth are Matthis and Radd. . .and Radd's pushing it). I don't care for mages, because their movement is terrible, and they're quite frail. Merric's extra turn to recruit isn't too bad on Hard. On Normal, every turn counts. Matthis + Starts with D Lances (1 on Normal, 2 on Hard, 3 on Normal and you do not have any of the Altean Three or Caeda, 4.5 on Hard, and you do not have Abel, Cain, or Caeda) + Technically costs no turns to recruit (1) + Reclassing exists (1) + Tanky as a Cavalier/Paladin (.5 on Normal, 1 on Hard) - Bad personal growths and worse bases (1 on Normal, 2.5 on Hard) - Starting equipment is not spectacular (1, Hard only) - Wants to level as something that's not a Cavalier (.5) - His best support option will probably be too far away to be effective (1) Pay attention everyone, Matthis is gonna hop tiers! Normal: 6/10 Normal, and you don't have the Altean Three or Caeda: 8/10 Hard: 4.5/10 Hard, and you don't have Abel, Cain, or Caeda: 7/10 Matthis is underrated, especially for drafts. He's part of the reason why I pull some of the crazier turn counts. The reason why I put such emphasis on Abel, Cain, Frey, and Caeda is because they can all do what Matthis does, and do it better than him. Matthis can work as a trailblazer, and his insane HP growth combined with his good Defense growth means he's got a decent chance of surviving whatever you throw at him. His Speed is a huge problem, and that 0 starting Luck with a 30% chance of improvement means he'll be risking criticals. You'll want to shove as many Archer levels down his throat as possible on the gaiden chapters. Do not promote Matthis early unless you're desperate. He needs all the growth he can get. Even if his growths aren't the best, it's sufficient for Normal. Edited February 7, 2011 by eclipse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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