What makes a good chapter?

[Geriba]

Remember that I'm a ranked player at heart, dondon. I wouldn't be surprised if those maps I love in FE7 don't have the same charm in a purely efficient run-through (which I don't think I've ever done, to be honest), but they certainly do if you're going for an S-Rank.

[Swordsalmon]

Agreed, but Fire Emblem 7 HHM is a close second. Brimming with uniqueness and challenge, just like Thracia's map design. Living Legend, for example, is a FoW desert map; if that wasn't enough, you'll have to ferry thieves around the archer-laden desert to collect valuable items. It's also the only chapter I know of where you literally protect the enemies from an NPC. Crazed Beast is a three-pronged attack, which I guess you could argue FE4 did first, but it's different with ginormous maps. Pirate Ship is probably the best at-sea level in the series, forcing the player to choose between a conservative, survivalist approach and a rush to the boss to steal his item. Battle before Dawn is an insane physic-spamming, paladin-rushing, Ursula-surviving rescue mission, complete with FoW and thieves trying to steal your shit. And I don't need to go into detail about how epic HHM Cog of Destiny is, do I?

A disagree. Thracia 776 added a lot more gameplay scenarios to the series, and most of those are extremely good. FE7 had some unique maps, but they were a pain to go through and in my opinion, detract greatly from the game.

Sure, you're saving the enemies from an NPC in Living Legend, but it's not very fun. Pretty much hinges on "Rescue Pent and hope your flier doesn't die!". Crazed Beast is very good in theory, but doesn't live up to the excitment with all those weak enemies. The ship battle is also pretty boring (And there's like, four other ship chapters in the series?), and Battle Before Dawn is a wreck.

Actually, I'd say FE7 has the worst level design in the series. With the exception of a few chapters (Dragon's Gate, Cog of Destiny), they're small, bland, and too easy.

[13th]

I also like the gimmicks of FE7. 28x and the bridges just make for an awesome, strategic move, because if you have no flier and get a units stuck in the water... unless that unit is Dart or Hawkeye, it ain't goin' anywhere. I like the "Defeat all these bosses to get to the final boss" concept of Light, but the fact there's 8 of them, all armed with Insane weaponry, and the fact that there is little room for error, its so difficult it can be not fun.

Although, my favorite chapter in FE7 is Battle Preparations. "BUY STUFF BEFORE 5 TURNS PASS!"

[Geriba]

I also like the gimmicks of FE7. 28x and the bridges just make for an awesome, strategic move, because if you have no flier and get a units stuck in the water... unless that unit is Dart or Hawkeye, it ain't goin' anywhere. I like the "Defeat all these bosses to get to the final boss" concept of Light, but the fact there's 8 of them, all armed with Insane weaponry, and the fact that there is little room for error, its so difficult it can be not fun.

Although, my favorite chapter in FE7 is Battle Preparations. "BUY STUFF BEFORE 5 TURNS PASS!"

Light Runes and staves are your friends.

[13th]

Yeah, I know, Jaffar. I just stated my thoughts there.

[Geriba]

Yeah, I know, Jaffar. I just stated my thoughts there.

Yeah, I know, shadow. I just stated my thoughts on your thoughts there.

[Charpig]

I like chapters where there are lots and lots of enemies. I also like chapters where large amounts of experience can be earned, so I can level up several times in one chapter. It's also very important for a Fire Emblem game to have an epic final chapter, I want to feel like I'm reaching the end of a long journey.

[Big Klingy]

For me, a good chapter is one that makes me feel like I'm actually fighting a major battle, as opposed to just playing a chess-like game. So far, only RDs maps have really given me that feeling, specifically 2-E (for once you feel like you're fighting an actual siege and the late part 3 maps.

I also like a chapter that tells an engaging story, which you watch unfold and get involved in while playing the map. FE4 Chapter 5 and RD 3-13 come to mind here.

From FE7, Cog of Destiny, Night of Farewells and Battle Before Dawn always stood out to me. I can, however, see why pure gameplay enthusiasts hate that last one, failing due to reasons beyond your control is irritating. But I'm more of a 50/50 story to gameplay ratio guy myself. (if I want pure strategy I'll go back to Advance Wars) I've always found this a fun and memorable chapter on the lower dificulties.

Night of Farewells is unique, has strong, but not overly cheap, enemies and wraps up possibly my favourite subplot in the game.

Cog of Destiny is pretty much the point where the game starts getting really epic. (the new map theme reflects this too)

[CT075]

What Klingy said, basically. I'd like to add a couple Fe5 maps, including the one where all you have is Glade and some generic Lenster units against crushing waves of Armor Knights and the boss. All the while, you're frantically rushing Leaf and his team over to the escape point which happens to be the castle you're defending. If you leave anyone behind, they get captured and you have to go rescue them.

And then there's that chapter where you need to get back to the castle after your assault on Blume has failed. You're either running away at top speed, desperately running for your lives or attempting to stand and fight against the overwhelming waves of Cavaliers (note: A well trained Othin and Asvel can make this feat trivially easy). At the same time, you have either Miranda or Sleuth, trying to get through to one of the enemy leaders.

So basically any chapter that isn't a generic "lol, go bumrush the enemy for success" chapter.

[Paperblade]

I enjoyed 1-E and most Part 4 chapters when actively avoiding royals/etc.

Defend chapters are cute but tend to drag out (FE7's on Normal Mode are boring, you clear out the enemies and then get held up as a couple reinforcements spawn and die for like 5 turns). They went on too long so I often spent a lot of turns standing around doing nothing. Only HM Pirate Ship sans Marcus and HM Kinship's Bond really escaped this feeling. Battle Before Dawn almost did except LOLRNGNPCS. If you're going to make a defend chapter but don't want to be too harsh on players, please add an alternate win condition such as defeat boss.

I actually don't really care for Night of Farewells. The disparity between using 2-3 flyers and not is too great IMO.

FEDS2's chapters were extremely well designed.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Paperblade

[Mekkah]

I hate Night of Farewells. Disappearing tiles never did it for me, I don't know how anyone could find that fun. It's pretty challenging alright, but not in a fun way.

Cog of Destiny, when you're not being annoyed by the status staves, is great. It has that all-out war feel going. It has like the only challenging enemies in the game (Valkyries...Luna Druids are easy if you have a way around them, and luck-based if you don't). Same feeling for FE6 Ch21, though that one went a little overboard on the reinforcements.

Most Final chapters feel very good, often because of the music.

[Zkirsche]

I hate routs because they're too time consuming. I prefer defend/survive maps more than anything else (17-3, from PoR, is a good example).

Difficult kill boss/seize maps are good too. Stuff like chapter 22 from PoR, aren't.

[Lux Aeterna]

Difficult kill boss/seize maps are good too. Stuff like chapter 22 from PoR, aren't.

That's the one where you can essentially kill the warrior boss in one turn with bolting, right?

[Zkirsche]

Yep >_>

[Emeraldfox]

A huge desert map.

[riariadne]

Long, interesting, challenging, plot-significant. Preferably forces my units into groups and/or is a defence mission that actually requires a competent defence. Good music.

...And shouldn't pop up too often. They'd be cheapened if every map was like these.

Yeah, this pretty much sums it up for me. I also like maps with unique objectives (hello FE7 chapter 6). I generally dislike Fog of War maps as well unless they are defend.

[Guy Starwind]

I'm not sure what I would say to make a good chapter. However, I would say I love chapter 5 in FE4 and all the chapters you get to kill the other members in the game in FE10. So, I guess I like watching my guys die? :D

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Good environmental design/atmosphere. I like how in FE10 you can zoom out, set the camera angle to "unplayable," and find out random stuff about the maps, like how 2-E is between two dirt paths.

Variety is also good.

[Smiley Jim]

In my opinion, I prefer maps that actually force you to think up a strategy and plan each move out carefully. I also like maps with a unique victory condition, such as FE7's Ch25 where you had to seize three forts or 3-4 in Radiant Dawn where you had to have two characters seize at the same time. I also agree with Anouleth about maps not trying to be 'cute', but still leaving little room for error. While I don't have much to say on most types of maps, there are a few in particular which should be addressed:

Defend maps: In a scenario where you need to defend, the player should be forced to actually DEFEND the throne/gate, and not waste time trying to rout everything. The developers should make it so that you can't just shave turns off by killing the boss, and you have to sit it out for the designated amount of time. Another way to make defend chapters more challenging is to have an infinite amount of reinforcements spawn from certain stairs/forts on the map that can't be stopped even if you kill the boss, then place bottlenecks on the map that you need to exploit in order to survive the onslaught. Even better, the map should force the player to wait out for the designated time, AND kill the boss(like in FE5's C20.)

Escape maps: In a scenario where you need to escape, the player should have escaping the map as his no.1 priority. As an example, have an infinite amount of reinforements spawn from the player's starting position that are stronger than the regular mooks, and a somewhat long path to the escape point. Also, your units should have to escape before the lord does or else you lose the unit(s) left behind. Another way to make an escape map more challenging is to put a mounted/flying boss that moves after a set amount of turns(or if you stupidly enter his range), and if this boss comes into contact with ANY of your units, it results in a game over.

Edited March 6, 2011 by DA125

[Anouleth]

Defend maps: In a scenario where you need to defend, the player should be forced to actually DEFEND the throne/gate, and not waste time trying to rout everything. The developers should make it so that you can't just shave turns off by killing the boss, and you have to sit it out for the designated amount of time.

The problem is that in many easier defend maps, it's pointless to force the player to sit through the 6 to 15 turns when they've routed everything by turn 5. Although I don't think defend chapters should have Kill Boss as a victory condition, Rout would be more appropriate.

The issue is that while for us, defend chapters are very easy because we are skilled enough to take down the boss, many players probably find them more challenging. I think that it's very easy for us to sit here and think that FE should be more difficult since we play it all the time, but the game shouldn't necessarily cater to a tiny minority of the people who play it.

Another way to make an escape map more challenging is to put a mounted/flying boss that moves after a set amount of turns(or if you stupidly enter his range), and if this boss comes into contact with ANY of your units, it results in a game over.

That seems a little arbitrary. For many players, just getting a character killed is cause to reset, so the same could be accomplished by making the boss very powerful... which at the same time, leaves open the possibility of the player managing to survive him. I think that you're approaching this the wrong way. You think that the game should force the player to adopt a particular style and give them a game over if they refuse. But part of what makes FE fun to play is that there are many different ways to play it, and a good player can do very impressive things.

[Zkirsche]

The problem is that in many easier defend maps, it's pointless to force the player to sit through the 6 to 15 turns when they've routed everything by turn 5. Although I don't think defend chapters should have Kill Boss as a victory condition, Rout would be more appropriate.

Then make defend maps harder so that we actually have to defend.

I think that it's very easy for us to sit here and think that FE should be more difficult since we play it all the time, but the game shouldn't necessarily cater to a tiny minority of the people who play it.

The option for a large difficulty should still be there though, as many people, not just including all of us debaters, like to find challenge in a game. E.G. Maniac mode from PoR. It was scrapped for an easier mode: but why not include both?

The game should also definitely cater to those who play it all teh time as well as we're probably the most loyal customers anyway.

[Paperblade]

The problem is that in many easier defend maps, it's pointless to force the player to sit through the 6 to 15 turns when they've routed everything by turn 5. Although I don't think defend chapters should have Kill Boss as a victory condition, Rout would be more appropriate.

The issue is that while for us, defend chapters are very easy because we are skilled enough to take down the boss, many players probably find them more challenging. I think that it's very easy for us to sit here and think that FE should be more difficult since we play it all the time, but the game shouldn't necessarily cater to a tiny minority of the people who play it.

This is easy to avoid by what the DS games did and make like 6 different difficulty levels. New Mystery appeals to a wider audience more than any previous FE by adding a way to avoid permadeath, but H3 and H4 are still extremely difficult.

That seems a little arbitrary. For many players, just getting a character killed is cause to reset, so the same could be accomplished by making the boss very powerful... which at the same time, leaves open the possibility of the player managing to survive him. I think that you're approaching this the wrong way. You think that the game should force the player to adopt a particular style and give them a game over if they refuse. But part of what makes FE fun to play is that there are many different ways to play it, and a good player can do very impressive things.

Agreed. Arbitrary defeat conditions are lame and means we don't get the potential for hilarious videos where people kick reason to the curb (such as CM killing off most of Jeorge's Snipers + the Physic Bishop in Ch. 5 Lunatic)

[Florete]

The problem is that in many easier defend maps, it's pointless to force the player to sit through the 6 to 15 turns when they've routed everything by turn 5. Although I don't think defend chapters should have Kill Boss as a victory condition, Rout would be more appropriate.

Going off this, I really wish 2-E in RD didn't have Kill Boss as a victory condition. If you actually play that out it feels like a real Defend map more than any other, particularly in Hard mode and likely in your first few times on Normal (maybe even later). I remember playing that on my first run and it was far and away the hardest map in the game for me. I kept shouting "Why are there so many reinforcements!?!"

But now I know I can just move Elincia to the right spot a few turns in and have her Stun Ludveck :/.

[Viceroy]

High level of challenge is the most important. Most of Fire Emblem is easy when you can just take your best units and form an impassable wall against which all the mook enemies will kill themselves, then just clean up 1 turn later with heal staves and repeat until you kill the boss and seize the throne. Even worse is when you don't even HAVE to form a defensive line, because enemies are too few and far between, and they just come at your 12 unit army one at a time and you smash their shit with WTA in single turns.

This is why I only play insanely difficult ROM edits these days.

[Anouleth]

High level of challenge is the most important. Most of Fire Emblem is easy when you can just take your best units and form an impassable wall against which all the mook enemies will kill themselves, then just clean up 1 turn later with heal staves and repeat until you kill the boss and seize the throne. Even worse is when you don't even HAVE to form a defensive line, because enemies are too few and far between, and they just come at your 12 unit army one at a time and you smash their shit with WTA in single turns.

This is why I only play insanely difficult ROM edits these days.

Or just play for low turn counts where you can't really get away with steamrolling forward very slowly.

Going off this, I really wish 2-E in RD didn't have Kill Boss as a victory condition. If you actually play that out it feels like a real Defend map more than any other, particularly in Hard mode and likely in your first few times on Normal (maybe even later). I remember playing that on my first run and it was far and away the hardest map in the game for me. I kept shouting "Why are there so many reinforcements!?!"

But now I know I can just move Elincia to the right spot a few turns in and have her Stun Ludveck :/.

I agree with you, actually. I also remember thinking that Chapter 8 in PoR was hard... but now it just seems so easy for me... the same goes for all the other defend chapters.

But for tough defend chapters, I can only really think of Last Hope in FE8. Definitely the toughest map in FE8, you have big bunches of reinforcements coming every turn with a big mixture of classes (Heroes, Warriors, Snipers, Rangers, Mage Knights, Great Knights, Paladins, Swordmasters). So disappointing how easy it is to snipe Riev.