Sacred Stones No-Seth Tier List

[Thor Odinson]

she joins early enough where she has several chapters of free deployment

Neimi joins in C3. You get prep screen in C4. She only have one chapter of free deployment and that's her joining.

[Shadow Mir]

Well, Gilliam is kinda-sorta necessary to get a low turn count in chapter 1-4 and he is forced in chapters 1-3 and can get a few kills. Admittedly they would be better spent going to someone else, but he does contribute positively and is kinda-sorta necessary for clearing a chapter quickly even if it just rescue chaining. Whereas Neimi is never really necessary for anything.

The first knight's crest going to Gilliam may seem unlikely, but it is still a consideration since it makes him significantly better with +2 move (and he stops getting doubled by everything) and Franz/Forde/Kyle may want to take advantage of their good growths and not promote at level 10. In Eirika route the first chapter is a route map and I can't think of anyone durable enough to be clear the south end of the map besides Seth (who doesn't exist) or an early promoted paladin or great knight (and remember Gilliam's base level is higher than Franz's with worse growths).

I still think Gilliam is better than Ross at least...

I'm not seeing Gilliam getting much exp in chapters 1-3 since they're pretty axe-heavy.

[Radiant Dragon]

I agree with the fact that he's better than Ross, though.

[Rewjeo]

So, Neimi is gaining 300 more EXP than Gilliam over fewer chapters? Compare 10/1 Gilliam to 7/0 Neimi. With a Steel Bow, she has 16 ATK and 89 HIT. With a Hand Axe, Gilliam has 21 MT and 80 HIT. A javelin means one less MT, but five more HIT. He has 7 SPD, she has 9 or 10. Against a lot of enemies, he's probably doing her job better than she is. And then he's got an enemy phase (and not all that bad of one, either. 33-34 HP with 14 DEF and MT as high as the mid 20s is pretty good for a time) and more MOV. Even once she promotes, she has no 1-2 range and is probably not doing enough damage even with doubling that there's any difference between her countering and him countering like 90% of the time. He also has WTC and much better defenses. She has like 1 MOV on him after promotion, and that's about it. I guess she might be better for the lategame, though.

Edit: And this is assuming that she somehow gets EXP faster than he does.

Edit 2: At 10/5 she's got nearly 50 ATK with Nidhogg, which is not a widely contested item.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Rewjeo

[RNG Princess]

So, Neimi is gaining 300 more EXP than Gilliam over fewer chapters? Compare 10/1 Gilliam to 7/0 Neimi. With a Steel Bow, she has 16 ATK and 89 HIT. With a Hand Axe, Gilliam has 21 MT and 80 HIT. A javelin means one less MT, but five more HIT. He has 7 SPD, she has 9 or 10. Against a lot of enemies, he's probably doing her job better than she is. And then he's got an enemy phase (and not all that bad of one, either. 33-34 HP with 14 DEF and MT as high as the mid 20s is pretty good for a time) and more MOV. Even once she promotes, she has no 1-2 range and is probably not doing enough damage even with doubling that there's any difference between her countering and him countering like 90% of the time. He also has WTC and much better defenses. She has like 1 MOV on him after promotion, and that's about it. I guess she might be better for the lategame, though.

Edit: And this is assuming that she somehow gets EXP faster than he does.

Edit 2: At 10/5 she's got nearly 50 ATK with Nidhogg, which is not a widely contested item.

Convicing ^^' but anyways I don't agree with Neimi moving to bottom, and Gilliam can stay where he is for his early game fever I can't really disagree with him > her, its until later chapters where she shows better results

Edited June 29, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Caliban of Sycorax]

In any case it doesn't matter. Franz, Forde, and Kyle can and should promote first. Unless this is a draft we can assume we will use all units barring Seth. When it comes down to it, Gilliam will be lucky to get a few kills before C4 rolls around. He has WTD across the map in C2 and even with lolaxehit he's gonna get hit a few times, and Moulder's going to be preoccupied healing Franz/Eirika/Garcia who will essentially fight the whole map. In C3 there's one mercenary. ONE. And it doesn't matter, this chapter has lolbreakablewalls that Gilliam could chip at but he'll get eaten alive if he goes any farther, in all honesty. He's better than Ross but that doesn't mean much, he still sucks.

[Anouleth]

I don't know if Gilliam can reasonably be level 10 in time for Chapter 9.

[Rewjeo]

In any case it doesn't matter. Franz, Forde, and Kyle can and should promote first.

Can you please not ignore the rules even after I've pointed out the rule that makes this point moot?

Unless this is a draft we can assume we will use all units barring Seth.

No, we can't. There is simply not enough EXP (or deployment slots...) to use all of the units. That would just turn this into a max efficiency list, anyways. If we're 'using everyone' then the most efficient strategy would become to only use the best of the best.

When it comes down to it, Gilliam will be lucky to get a few kills before C4 rolls around. He has WTD across the map in C2 and even with lolaxehit he's gonna get hit a few times, and Moulder's going to be preoccupied healing Franz/Eirika/Garcia who will essentially fight the whole map. In C3 there's one mercenary. ONE. And it doesn't matter, this chapter has lolbreakablewalls that Gilliam could chip at but he'll get eaten alive if he goes any farther, in all honesty. He's better than Ross but that doesn't mean much, he still sucks.

Indeed.

@Anouleth

I wasn't necessarily thinking that early, but it *might* be possible. He can get a level in chapter 1, he could hypothetically get quite a lot in Chapter 4 if he got SPD in chapter 1. I could see two three levels. So if he's at like level 7 now, that's only three levels over four chapters. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the player will only use Gilliam if he gets SPD on his first level up, either.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Ignoring the first two sentences Gilliam is still pretty useless beyond the earlygame. C4 is where his usefulness ends, because C5 is too big for him to do anything important, as is C6. C7 Eirika is rescuedropped by Vanessa and this chapter is like 3-4 turned. In C8 this is another rush chapter, and Gilliam's usefulness ends at the beginning part where he could help with a few loldiers. That's about it.

[Anouleth]

Maybe someone should actually try to use Gilliam.

Not me.

[Rewjeo]

Although it's true Gilliam isn't doing anything to contribute in chapter 5 or 6, I'm sure he can find ways to grab EXP for himself.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Not me.

Ditto.

maybe we should make another FE8 draft

[RNG Princess]

Gilliam is decent enough with a slim lance against axe users, he seems that way tbh. His low move doesn't help early game because maps are pretty big, and even after promotion he still has low move, but I think a bigger issue for him is his speed since he can use boots.

At 20/1 he has 9.8 speed which is like what Eirika/Colm starts with, thats just too slow by the time he gets there and even if he uses speedwings he'll tie Vanessa's Base speed but so many chapters later considering he needs to gain 16 levels. Promoting him earlier slows him even more.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Duessel wants the boots because he's leagues better than Gilliam, and if we're not giving them to Duessel we're at least giving them to an 8-move unit like Franz or Vanessa. Hell, even Natasha could use them for two extra move which extends her Physic range ever slightly.

[Radiant Dragon]

Duessel and Gilliam have the same use (yes Duessel does it better, but that's not the point). And I would argue that +2 Physic range for Natasha is less useful than letting a unit keep up and contribute more. Also, you forgot Tethys.

If we're using Gilliam, he's a decent candidate for the Boots.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[RNG Princess]

Just to mention, Duessel should not be getting boots on Eirika's route. Also Rewjeo discussed about characters using items to self improve, but considering Gilliam using all these sources he still falls behind because of his speed.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Vykan12]

You know, there is a way to have low move units see a lot of combat, namely rescue-dropping when your cavs/fliers don't have anyone in range to attack. Granted, Gilliam will need this done for him like every 2nd turn, but it's better than nothing.

@Queen: The slim lance is just too valuable on Vanessa, without it she's already tossing away 3 spd/6 avo by going to iron.

[Anouleth]

Duessel and Gilliam have the same use (yes Duessel does it better, but that's not the point).

All combat characters have the same use: to kill things. However, Duessel can kill things, and Gilliam cannot

And I would argue that +2 Physic range for Natasha is less useful than letting a unit keep up and contribute more.

I don't know, when that unit is Gilliam it is pretty close.

If we're using Gilliam, he's a decent candidate for the Boots.

And if you shoot yourself in the foot, you might want to consider cutting the leg off. The fact remains: what the Boots can acheive on other characters is greater than what it acheives on Gilliam, which is letting a subpar unit keep up in Chapter 16 and 18. You can give the Boots to Gilliam if you really want, but ultimately you are only hurting his case because he is taking a large opportunity cost he can't possibly make up for.

You know, there is a way to have low move units see a lot of combat, namely rescue-dropping when your cavs/fliers don't have anyone in range to attack. Granted, Gilliam will need this done for him like every 2nd turn, but it's better than nothing.

There are many characters we can do this for, and unlike Gilliam they will actually have decent combat. Gerik, Garcia, Joshua, unpromoted Ephraim, and Tethys are all competing for the attention of our Cavaliers.

[RNG Princess]

I personally think Tethys is a good boots candidate

@Vykan iirc you can buy more slim lances in Ch.2

[Rewjeo]

If we're promoting Gilliam around chapter 10, he's probably past the point at which he's useful once the boots show up. I wouldn't give the boots to him.

[Shadow Mir]

If we're promoting Gilliam around chapter 10, he's probably past the point at which he's useful once the boots show up. I wouldn't give the boots to him.

Heh... I have trouble seeing him get enough exp to promote around then, personally.

[dondon151]

Heh... I have trouble seeing him get enough exp to promote around then, personally.

Really? You know, he joins in chapter 1 at level 4. He just needs 6 levels in 10 maps. Units like Neimi, Artur, or Lute need more levels in fewer maps.

[Shadow Mir]

Really? You know, he joins in chapter 1 at level 4. He just needs 6 levels in 10 maps. Units like Neimi, Artur, or Lute need more levels in fewer maps.

Well, I can't expect him to get much exp with that 4 move of his... And axes being common early on isn't helping.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Anouleth]

Really? You know, he joins in chapter 1 at level 4. He just needs 6 levels in 10 maps. Units like Neimi, Artur, or Lute need more levels in fewer maps.

Well, I got Lute to level 10 halfway through chapter 11 on Eph. Route. Neimi and Artur can probably reach that level a little bit earlier, but I don't know how Gilliam would do. 4 move instead of 5 is a big difference.

[Rewjeo]

Chapter 1 he's good, chapter 4 he's good if he got SPD in chapter 1 (which I feel should be assumed. I think that the team should be fluid, not set.) and then can get some EXP in chapter 5 and 6. He can probably get some EXP in chapter 8, too, even though he's only really contributing in chapters 1 and 4. That's just over a level per chapter on average to be in line for a chapter 9 promotion, and I think he could get a lot of experience in the top left corner of chapter 4.