Sacred Stones No-Seth Tier List

[Rewjeo]

I think the speed thing decides whether or not he's better than Ross, personally.

[RNG Princess]

Gilliam hits harder and has better durability against everything except axe users that double him.

They have more move and hit though, so its chipping vs tanking ^^'

Ross can chip something in C.2, idk about Neimi (maybe chip in C3 and C4?) but Gilliam can tank in C4 for someone like Colm/Neimi to claim kill (unless he has 4spd which soloes the entire area.)

Then they all begin struggling even more in later chapters except Neimi/Ross have better long term use I think.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Anouleth]

I am, but seeing as we won't use Gilliam in 100% of playthroughs, there are only certain times he will be used.

Except Gilliam isn't so unusably poor that he won't be touched.

He is 70% of the time.

Some of the time, yes, but that's true with all characters.

No, it isn't. Franz does not have a 70% chance for his offense to implode. Eirika does not have a 70% chance. With characters that are actually good, the chance is much smaller, and often it will be worth using them even despite the risk of RNG-screwage (unless you are suggesting we should go through the game using no units at all because you're worried they'll all be RNG screwed).

Yes, this will happen to Gilliam more often than other units, but the player does not have to go out of his/her way to take a chance, and, if he is going to be unusably bad, then he won't be used.

That doesn't matter. If Gilliam is unusable, he's unusable and that's a strike against him, just as Amelia being unusable 100% of the time is a strike against her. In 70% of efficient playthroughs, Gilliam does nothing and even in the other 30% his use is very limited. This speaks to me of a character who deserves Bottom Tier. At least characters like L'arachel, Innes and Syrene can be useful in all playthroughs.

You can ignore his bad times because it is so easy for the player to do while still actually using him sometimes.

Oh, so it just "doesn't matter" that Gilliam is completely shit 70% of the time. Move along folks, nothing to see here, try to avert your eyes from the trainwreck that is Gilliam's speed.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Actually, there's barely any difference between if Gilliam procs speed or not. He still handles Ch4 reinforcements faster than the rate determining step.

[Shadow Mir]

Gilliam hits harder and has better durability against everything except axe users that double him.

They have more move and hit though, so its chipping vs tanking ^^'

Ross can chip something in C.2, idk about Neimi (maybe chip in C3 and C4?) but Gilliam can tank in C4 for someone like Colm/Neimi to claim kill (unless he has 4spd which soloes the entire area.)

Then they all begin struggling even more in later chapters except Neimi/Ross have better long term use I think.

Speaking of axemen doubling... Chapter 2 may have some 7 AS Bandits.

[Salad Utensil]

Gilliam has 14 Con unpromoted / GK, 16 if he goes general, so it's pretty infeasible to Rescue / Drop him, since the only units who can do that are unpromoted Vanessa / Tana.

Gilliam is not a good option to drop in Chapter 7. He is boned by the Thunder Mage up top, and the Archers will swarm him and block his path. Franz does have the durability to survive since he can ORKO Archers and Mages, unlike Gilliam, who can't double them. Eirika is pretty much the only character who can do substantial damage to Murray at this point though.

I concur with Anouleth, it's reasonable to get Franz up to level 15 by Chapter 8. Mine was level 13 after Chapter 7, with the Chapter 4 and Chapter 6 bosskills under his belt. He gets kills pretty easily, ORKOing Soldiers and Archers with a few levels, and dealing substantial damage to Fighters.

What? Paladin!Franz, Paladin!Forde, MK!Lute, WK!Cormag, Valk!Natasha, FK!Tana, FK!Vanessa, who are all viable units have 14 Aid, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No one can survive all the enemies except Seth because of the mage...Franz NEEDS 10AS (level 11) to double the mage (with 70ish hit), along with pure water and the dragon shield to be able to survive if you assume everything hits him (faces 60ish hits rates). This isn't unique to Franz as Garcia or Gilliam can do the same thing although Gilliam relies less on his level ups in order to do this. Generally the mage is too dangerous to deal with so you CAN drop Garcia/Gilliam/Franz out of its range, but still in the range of the archers and soldiers.

I kind of want to know your turncounts for those chapters...

[-Cynthia-]

Bottom seems too harsh for Gilliam. He does help clear Chapter 1 a bit, since Franz and Eirika generally aren't ORKOing. He can chip a wall in Chapter 3 and probably help the Chapter 4 rout. It's not much, but no one in Low does very much.

[Anouleth]

Bottom seems too harsh for Gilliam. He does help clear Chapter 1 a bit, since Franz and Eirika generally aren't ORKOing. He can chip a wall in Chapter 3 and probably help the Chapter 4 rout. It's not much, but no one in Low does very much.

L'arachel is essentially free deployment for chapter 14 (we have money, but not quite enough to fork out for Rennac), and extra healers in the chapter are just helpful. In Eph Route, anyway. Knoll has lategame summons. Rennac has desert items. Syrene has 8 move and flying utility. I think that's better than hitting the odd enemy in Chapter 1 and being barely better for a deployment slot than Colm in Chapter 4. If not Bottom, than bottom of Low.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Looking at the list for both routes, he should be below Syrene, and Neimi should be right next to him, IMO.

[Radiant Dragon]

Neimi and Ross need to drop into Low, and Syrene sounds like she'll be good at the bottom of Lower Mid.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Hmm, I agree on that. I forgot about Ross.

How about L'Arachel>Knoll? She has a few chapters on him and has immediate staffbot uses. And she has better move.

[Radiant Dragon]

L'Arachel doesn't have better move than Knoll until she promotes (I'm assuming we're Sealing Knoll as soon as we get him), and he can use staves as well and has unique utility in Summons. Plus we already have 3 other staff users; Saleh is just plain better than both, and Moulder or Natasha are probably promoted by the time L'Arachel joins. How many staffbots do we need?

Really, all she has on Knoll is Canto, some availability and potential. I don't think that makes her better.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Aquilae]

What? Paladin!Franz, Paladin!Forde, MK!Lute, WK!Cormag, Valk!Natasha, FK!Tana, FK!Vanessa, who are all viable units have 14 Aid, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

No one can survive all the enemies except Seth because of the mage...Franz NEEDS 10AS (level 11) to double the mage (with 70ish hit), along with pure water and the dragon shield to be able to survive if you assume everything hits him (faces 60ish hits rates). This isn't unique to Franz as Garcia or Gilliam can do the same thing although Gilliam relies less on his level ups in order to do this. Generally the mage is too dangerous to deal with so you CAN drop Garcia/Gilliam/Franz out of its range, but still in the range of the archers and soldiers.

I kind of want to know your turncounts for those chapters...

Derp, I was looking at fat Gerik who has 15 Con xD

Franz doesn't have to face everything, he can be dropped out of range of the Mercs. He can survive quite comfortably at level 12, since all he has to face are the Soldiers, an Archer and the Mage from his position, and can clean up later.

Garcia can't survive because he has 2-3 points of Def less than Franz, and only a bit more HP. He also can't double the Archers with his Hand Axe, and has poorer accuracy. Gilliam gets doubled by the Mage, which takes off ~20 HP already. He also can't clear out the Archers like Franz.

Gilliam also can't clear out the Archers, and gets doubled by the Mage (he needs >6 AS to avoid being doubled, which isn't happening). The Mage alone shaves off ~20 HP, and the Soldiers and the Archer combine for a kill on level 8 Gilliam (4 + 4 + 2 damage). Gilliam has poorer accuracy, and can't dodge anything. This is assuming Gilliam actually can get enough level ups to reach level 9, which will be an uphill task due to his poor move and bad offense.

Clearing out the Archers is important because Vanessa still has to Drop Eirika over, and if the archer isn't cleared, she'd have to drop further away to canto back and avoid it. Franz is the only person who can do this, and he can do it comforably with his level 11 averages. Franz also can dodge stuff much better than Garcia / Gilliam, and I'd assume he can dodge about 1 in 4 attacks due to 60% disp.

Here's my run for reference:

[Salad Utensil]

Derp, I was looking at fat Gerik who has 15 Con xD

Franz doesn't have to face everything, he can be dropped out of range of the Mercs. He can survive quite comfortably at level 12, since all he has to face are the Soldiers, an Archer and the Mage from his position, and can clean up later.

Garcia can't survive because he has 2-3 points of Def less than Franz, and only a bit more HP. He also can't double the Archers with his Hand Axe, and has poorer accuracy. Gilliam gets doubled by the Mage, which takes off ~20 HP already. He also can't clear out the Archers like Franz.

Gilliam also can't clear out the Archers, and gets doubled by the Mage (he needs >6 AS to avoid being doubled, which isn't happening). The Mage alone shaves off ~20 HP, and the Soldiers and the Archer combine for a kill on level 8 Gilliam (4 + 4 + 2 damage). Gilliam has poorer accuracy, and can't dodge anything. This is assuming Gilliam actually can get enough level ups to reach level 9, which will be an uphill task due to his poor move and bad offense.

Clearing out the Archers is important because Vanessa still has to Drop Eirika over, and if the archer isn't cleared, she'd have to drop further away to canto back and avoid it. Franz is the only person who can do this, and he can do it comforably with his level 11 averages. Franz also can dodge stuff much better than Garcia / Gilliam, and I'd assume he can dodge about 1 in 4 attacks due to 60% disp.

Here's my run for reference:

I just want to point out there is exactly 1 space somewhere on the bridge that is completely out of the range of the mage yet in range of both archers and soldiers. If Gilliam (or Garcia depending on his level ups and if he got the dragon shield) just need to 2HKO the archers to clear them out of the way.

My strategy is to have Vanessa deployed on the furthest possible tile out and have her rescue Franz/Garcia/Gilliam directly 7 spaces up. Meanwhile have Eirika make her way upward toward the mage and fighter (bring Joshua as well in order to clear out the enemies). On turn 2 she can drop someone into the range of the archers and soldiers but not the mage (1 space up, 2 right) and return to get Eirika on Turn 3. Turn 2 enemy phase is used to clear the soldiers and if the archers are 2HKOed they can die during turn 3 enemy phase when you heal Garcia/Gilliam/Franz during the player phase. Have Vanessa drop Eirika in front of the boss (mine was slightly speed blessed though 14AS should suffice and the level 9 average is 13.8) on turn 4 and if the boss gets cleared, you can seize turn 5. Furthermore this ensures you get the pure water and if your other units are strong enough you can bait the energy ring mage toward you and potentially steal it during turn 5.

Anyway if you ignore the mage, you don't even HAVE to rely on dodging a single hit provided you gave the person you plan on dropping the dragon shield you get chapter 5

Did that mage really have 11 AS?

Because from my PT...

Edited July 1, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Vykan12]

Speaking of axemen doubling... Chapter 2 may have some 7 AS Bandits.

That just sounds downright insane. The fighters/bandits in C9 Eir have 7-9 AS.

[Mekkah]

I've had Gilliam doubled by a Ch2 bandit before, so it happens. Just not all that often.

[Rewjeo]

He is 70% of the time.

But you can get around it. It's not even hard. He's gonna level up anyways.

No, it isn't. Franz does not have a 70% chance for his offense to implode. Eirika does not have a 70% chance. With characters that are actually good, the chance is much smaller, and often it will be worth using them even despite the risk of RNG-screwage (unless you are suggesting we should go through the game using no units at all because you're worried they'll all be RNG screwed).

Actually, it is and you literally restated the next part of my post. I'm not saying we won't use units in case they get RNG screwed. I'm saying we won't use them AFTER THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN SCREWED BY THE RNG.

That doesn't matter. If Gilliam is unusable, he's unusable and that's a strike against him, just as Amelia being unusable 100% of the time is a strike against her. In 70% of efficient playthroughs, Gilliam does nothing and even in the other 30% his use is very limited. This speaks to me of a character who deserves Bottom Tier. At least characters like L'arachel, Innes and Syrene can be useful in all playthroughs.

Y'know what the difference between Gilliam and Amelia is? Under the rules of the tier list, you can very very easily go around Gilliam's bad times. Amelia is always absolutely worthless so there's nothing you can do. Gilliam won't do anything in far more than just 70% of playthroughs. More like 95% We're only using him 1/6 as often as he procs SPD. Why shouldn't a team be fluid?

Are Syrene and L'arachel useful in all runs? Moulder has C staves at base, Artur can promote for C staves, Lute has D staves on promotion, Natasha has D at base, and on Eirika's route Saleh shows up immediately after her with C staves. Syrene is just another flier for the last few chapters. It's entirely possible that we will have other fliers who can take her role on just as well, and even if they're slightly worse, how much is she contributing edit: over what the other fliers could do? Gilliam is actually pretty helpful for a couple chapters if he gets that SPD.

Oh, so it just "doesn't matter" that Gilliam is completely shit 70% of the time. Move along folks, nothing to see here, try to avert your eyes from the trainwreck that is Gilliam's speed.

Time for a crappy analogy. There is a portal to some thing you really really want, but only 30% of the time. The other 70% of the time you just end up behind it. You can see through it, so you know when it will be good and when it won't. It only opens once a day, and you can only try to walk through it one out of every twenty days for some reason. Make it up. Why would you choose to walk through it when you know you won't get anything out of it when you could wait until you know you'll get whatever you want and then walk through it?

That is a pretty horrible analogy, but it does explain my thinking.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Rewjeo

[grandjackal]

But you can get around it. It's not even hard. He's gonna level up anyways.

No, you can't just get around 3 base speed. This limits his offense in an infinite way, as it means it's impossible for him to actually double, and he's already got the trouble of lagging behind every unit in the entire army. Unless you're suggesting he gets a wing (which would be lunacy), you're not gonna just handwave his speed by saying "He's gonna get levels anyways".

Actually, it is and you literally restated the next part of my post. I'm not saying we won't use units in case they get RNG screwed. I'm saying we won't use them AFTER THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN SCREWED BY THE RNG.

This does not help your case, because you're arguing for a character who starts at his base stats with a severely crippling weakness that he will essentially never recover from, even on average.

Y'know what the difference between Gilliam and Amelia is? Under the rules of the tier list, you can very very easily go around Gilliam's bad times. Amelia is always absolutely worthless so there's nothing you can do. Gilliam won't do anything in far more than just 70% of playthroughs. More like 95% We're only using him 1/6 as often as he procs SPD. Why shouldn't a team be fluid?

Cause Gilliam does not make a team fluid either? Unless you are constantly transporting him about with mounted units just to get his ass on the front lines, he's doing absolutely nothing.

Are Syrene and L'arachel useful in all runs?

They can be, yes.

Moulder has C staves at base, Artur can promote for C staves, Lute has D staves on promotion, Natasha has D at base, and on Eirika's route Saleh shows up immediately after her with C staves. Syrene is just another flier for the last few chapters. It's entirely possible that we will have other fliers who can take her role on just as well, and even if they're slightly worse, how much is she contributing edit: over what the other fliers could do? Gilliam is actually pretty helpful for a couple chapters if he gets that SPD.

You had, what I would like to think, is absolutely 0 point in even bringing up the mages, because having staff rank is always a boon. You can't not be useful if you have staffs.

Furthermore, having another flight transportation is nothing to shake a stick at. See: Darkling Woods, and the assload of terrain you have to forage through. This forever beats "Is useful in taking care of ass-end reinforcements 30% of the timefor a single chapter when everyone else in your party can do it 100% of the time".

Time for a crappy analogy. There is a portal to some thing you really really want, but only 30% of the time. The other 70% of the time you just end up behind it. You can see through it, so you know when it will be good and when it won't. It only opens once a day, and you can only try to walk through it one out of every twenty days for some reason. Make it up. Why would you choose to walk through it when you know you won't get anything out of it when you could wait until you know you'll get whatever you want and then walk through it?

That is a pretty horrible analogy, but it does explain my thinking.

It's a perfect analogy actually. Why would I ever use Gilliam when I could wait for something better to invest in? Why be wrong 70% of the time when I can be right and get what I want 100% of the time?

Edited July 1, 2011 by Grandkitty

[RNG Princess]

Rewjeo Gilliam is still useful without that speed at least in Ch.4 ^^' but before and after that theres really not much use to him except maybe helping drop someone or something. I disagree with Gilliam being in bottom tier, he's not completely useless/negative which is the same reason I think Marisa should rise.

I'm not sure if Syrene's combat is mendable but she has nice weapon ranks (killer weapons?) ^^' and we all know ferrying is useful and thats important especially for ch.20, having 4 fliers means having 2 characters rescued and dropped on the same turn which is pretty fast.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Rewjeo Gilliam is still useful without that speed at least in Ch.4 ^^' but before and after that theres really not much use to him except maybe helping drop someone or something. I disagree with Gilliam being in bottom tier, he's not completely useless/negative which is the same reason I think Marisa should rise.

Gilliam has barely salvageable combat in C4, whereas Marisa just has no combat whatsoever.

[RNG Princess]

Gilliam has barely salvageable combat in C4, whereas Marisa just has no combat whatsoever.

Are you sure? Tana and Marisa start with 7str and in Eirika's route Tana chips decently. Wouldn't Marisa be similar? She comes 1 chapter later.

[Psych]

Presumably because she doesn't have access to good ol' not-taking-a-counter Javelins. Or flight.

[Vykan12]

I understand what Rewjeo's saying about Gilliam's spd. Think of it as a probability-based availability increase. 30% of the time Gilliam gets used for longer because he procs spd. That's something worthy of consideration. After all, if he had a 0% spd growth, then it would be guaranteed that he's used for like 1 chapter, but that's obviously not the case. Unreliable as it may be, it's a point in his advantage. If we were using him whether he proc'd spd or not, then that would be a different story.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Again, there's barely any difference whether he procs speed at first or not.

[Rewjeo]

No, you can't just get around 3 base speed. This limits his offense in an infinite way, as it means it's impossible for him to actually double, and he's already got the trouble of lagging behind every unit in the entire army. Unless you're suggesting he gets a wing (which would be lunacy), you're not gonna just handwave his speed by saying "He's gonna get levels anyways".

Please understand my argument before you disagree. He's going to get a level up in chapter 1. 30% of the time this results in 4 AS. He will be used very rarely. Why not use him when he has 4 SPD only when you aren't even going out of your way to check?

This does not help your case, because you're arguing for a character who starts at his base stats with a severely crippling weakness that he will essentially never recover from, even on average.

I'm not seeing him outside of Low Tier. I'm am 100% aware of him being garbage.

Cause Gilliam does not make a team fluid either? Unless you are constantly transporting him about with mounted units just to get his ass on the front lines, he's doing absolutely nothing.

Sorry, I'll reword it. Why shouldn't the members of my team be fluid?

They can be, yes.

They CAN be used in absolutely every single run? Okay. Will they?

You had, what I would like to think, is absolutely 0 point in even bringing up the mages, because having staff rank is always a boon. You can't not be useful if you have staffs.

When you are inferior to like five other staffers, yes, you can be not useful. Especially if you also fail to have anything other than staffs going for you. I don't see how there was no point in bringing them up, either, seeing as they're better at L'arachel's job than her.

Furthermore, having another flight transportation is nothing to shake a stick at. See: Darkling Woods, and the assload of terrain you have to forage through. This forever beats "Is useful in taking care of ass-end reinforcements 30% of the timefor a single chapter when everyone else in your party can do it 100% of the time".

I have three other fliers. One for a lord, two for boss killers. Is Syrene necessary? No. Would it be better to use her instead of an untrained Tana/Vanessa (or alongside them?) Possibly. Maybe not, I haven't really looked into it.

It's a perfect analogy actually. Why would I ever use Gilliam when I could wait for something better to invest in? Why be wrong 70% of the time when I can be right and get what I want 100% of the time?

Well, in the analogy, you can't, so I don't know where that's coming from.