Sacred Stones No-Seth Tier List

[dondon151]

I would put Franz being at C swords by chapter 5 as dubious at best, considering he starts with E in swords.

[Bryan]

Eirika at level 4 has 29 avo, +forest/fort, +WTA gives 64 avo against the most common 77. Vulneraries also exist and can be used without slowing down since she 2RKOs. Crits are unnecessary.

Shit happens when we rely on just Eirika to tank. It can't when we have Franz tank.

What part of 64 avoid and 77 hit was not understandable? That's like, 13 hit? If she's on a plain it will be around 30, but still... Why do you need Def when you have that much avoid? In the rare event that she is hit, she can just use a potion.

Franz isn't doubling, nor is he that much more durable. He's got about a four HP and three Def lead on her. (This is saying they are both at level four.) It's one more attack that he can survive, which is great; but he'll get hit much more frequently.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Nyan

[dondon151]

4 HP, 3 def is a pretty substantial defensive lead.

[Anouleth]

Why is Eph. Ephraim nearly as good as (or as good as) Franz? Why is Vanessa nearly as good as Franz? Why is Eph. Duessel nearly as good as him? Why is Eir. Duessel nearly as good as him? Why is this not true, Anouleth? WoMC and I are at least working out what he contributes, but no one has really compared what anyone else contributes.

What? I don't think that any of those units deserve to be in the same tier as Franz, and I don't get where you got that impression from. I said that Franz should be in his own tier. Whether that means everyone else in Top Tier is moved into High Tier, or Franz ascends to Seth Tier (stupid name is up to you), I don't care, but I don't see how you could have interpreted my statement as 'Vanessa/Duessel/Ephraim are almost as good as Franz'. Franz can promote in about Chapter 8 or 9, I've gotten him to level 15 by then before. From that point on, he is on par with Duessel or Gerik except with the advantages of 8 move, in addition to his earlygame value.

4 HP, 3 def is a pretty substantial defensive lead.

Especially when you consider he doesn't face WTD from lance users.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Anouleth

[grandjackal]

Ok, I just have thoughts, though I'll ignore the whole Franz vs Eirika thing from here on, I just want to mention chapter 2 has quite a bit of terrain that Eirika can reach easy to help with surviving the bandits on her own (one piece of that terrain is a fort no less. We can assume at least a lvl 4 Eirika considering prologue, the early enemies in chapter 1, and the boss. 18 HP and 3.9 Def would in most likelyhood be 4. With WTA reducing damage by 1, and the forest giving +2 Def, she is taking 8 damage at most, which is a 3RKO, and the hit rates with her 10.8 Speed and 6.8 Luck (so we could easily assume 11 Speed and 7 Luck for 29 base avoid), +10 for WTA and +20 from fort...that's about 18 hit displayed on her, so I would venture her surviving is really not that big an issue. They'd 4RKO Franz at base if he took the fort, but on the other hand, he's not doubling them unless by some miracle he got to lvl 7 in one chapter. So yeah, I could be inclined to believe that Franz isn't permanently beating Eirika's ass in early game just cause "lolhorsie" is the golden excuse. Rest of the game? You guys can look into that.

However, I want to make my own comments considering the tier list just from a base sight.

-Lute and Artur are a tier above Saleh...Why? Especially on Eirika route.

-Garcia and Gilliam above Cormag and Deussal?...Yyyeeaaahhh, no.

-Neimi above the summon-bot, mounted healer-bot and instant utility Rennac? Name one thing aside from chipping walls in chapter 3 that she ever does worth value.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Grandjackal

[Bryan]

-Neimi above the summon-bot, mounted healer-bot and instant utility Rennac? Name one thing aside from chipping walls in chapter 3 that she ever does worth value.

She at least can promote to Ranger and gain swords. Plus, she has claim to the only bolt in the game. IMO, it's nice to have your own promotion item.

Not arguing that she does anything.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Nyan

[Life]

She at least can promote to Ranger and gain swords. Plus, she has claim to the only bolt in the game. IMO, it's nice to have your own promotion item.

Not arguing that she does anything.

I love Neimi but let's look at the facts, shall we?

For Neimi to promote, she still has to get to Level 10. She starts at Level 1. As an archer.

A horse and swords are really nice but where is she going to get all that Exp from?

[grandjackal]

She at least can promote to Ranger and gain swords. Plus, she has claim to the only bolt in the game. IMO, it's nice to have your own promotion item.

Well, yeah, she can go ranger. This would be nice, if she were any good. This is her at 10/1, since we would be mad to make her wait longer to promote.

24 HP, 10 Str, 11 Skl, 12 Spd, 8 Lck, 7 Def, 8 Res

This is Franz at level 10 without promotion, except she's missing 4 HP and 1 Def to him, along with weapon ranks in weapons that aren't awful. One must also consider her bases, and how crazy it is to attempt getting her to any decent level quick, considering she starts with a base might of 9 and a pitiful speed base of 6.

For L'arachel's mounted healing and Rennac's instant thief utility, I don't think I need to spell out how they're better than her right off the bat. For Knoll, that's gonna be a bit harder, mainly because everyone has the conception that Knoll sucks. He does, statistically, but not in utility. To explain my point...

First off, he can promote off the bat, or at least close enough to it. I won't bother posting his stats, cause they're awful, and they're also not the point. Neimi has to be trained through her awfulness, while Knoll can just skip that bullshit altogether. Knoll gets two things from promotion.

Staffs

Summoning

Staffs are just a nice bonus that allows him to heal when he can, which is cool and all. However, the summoning is bigger than many think. To explain why.

-Knoll moves 6 spaces, summons, and his summons move 5. This means he can forge a defensive line that reaches 2 spaces ahead of even paladins, and thus allows him to easier control enemy spacing for when you want to bust through and surround groups if they're tightly packed. This can be significant in the chapter before final.

-AI always goes for them over anything. This simply helps the survival rate of your more mobile units because of it. Because of this...

-It baits Shadowshots and Stone for when you can manage to manipulate the enemy you want to attack it. This is quite simple for Shadowshot, and makes life significantly easier.

I would take that over anything Neimi does as a Ranger.

[Rewjeo]

What? I don't think that any of those units deserve to be in the same tier as Franz, and I don't get where you got that impression from. I said that Franz should be in his own tier. Whether that means everyone else in Top Tier is moved into High Tier, or Franz ascends to Seth Tier (stupid name is up to you), I don't care, but I don't see how you could have interpreted my statement as 'Vanessa/Duessel/Ephraim are almost as good as Franz'. Franz can promote in about Chapter 8 or 9, I've gotten him to level 15 by then before. From that point on, he is on par with Duessel or Gerik except with the advantages of 8 move, in addition to his earlygame value.

I meant that other people were saying those units deserved to be in the same tier, and you were saying otherwise. I was asking them to explain why they should be in the same tier as him and asking you why they shouldn't. Sorry for the misunderstanding. And for the record, I have the exact same stance as you on this matter.

There's a lot of stuff flying around other than this Eirika/Franz/Top Tier stuff, so I'll add a "Current Discussions" thing to the first post in which I will have all unfinished debates. It'll probably be a pretty substantial list right now...

[Ring Wraith]

Neimi should be at the top of the bottom tier (once Syrene gets out of there). She's plain awful, but has better availability than the others down there.

Gilliam should drop to bottom of the low tier. He's nice for a wall early game, but is absolutely useless otherwise.

Eph. Innes should be much higher. He's a great candidate for Nidhogg just because there's only one other archer in the game--Neimi, who's awful. If you want to train Gerik with a bow and give him Nidhogg, go ahead, but at that point the exp might as well be going to Innes. I'd put him at least between Saleh and Dozla.

[Anouleth]

I don't think that Innes can reasonably gain that much WEXP in Ephraim's route. The remaining chapters are quite short and Innes lacks the movement to keep up with mounted units (and once he gets there, no enemy phase). Dozla stinks, but he's not *that* much worse and can use Garm whenever Duessel isn't doing so. Saleh is significantly better - he has a better chance of reaching S Rank, and he has enemy phase and staff access, although he's unlikely to get past C rank.

[grandjackal]

Yeeeeah, him getting S rank in Ephraim's route is kinda shaky I'd imagine. He has to get essentially 35 kills to reach it, which is not significantly easy for a Sniper to do. On top of that, he just has so little time to work with (5 chapters is not a lot of time if you're a guy who can only do things on player phase). Ephraim's route he doesn't look too hot.

Eirika's Route on the other hand I think he could have an argument against Ephriam who's above him, simply just based on availability, but I would have to ask what level we're assuming when Ephraim comes back from his soloing of Grado. We assuming Orson isn't rickrolling5x? Though looking at stats, I suppose it wouldn't matter too much. Ephraim at 10/1 Is still fairly decent...Could definitely be better, but decent. And considering he's a dude on a horse and has enemy phase...

Hmmm...What about Innes vs Josh?

[Roach]

Joshua is a superior unit to almost anyone else, should you give him the Boots.

Despite being swordlocked, Joshua will critical without a support at a 1-in-3 ratio, minimum, without a killing edge or a shamshir.

Another phenomenal unit is Marisa, due to the fact that as an Assassin, she will dodge nearly anything. Unfortunately, her use is limited due to terrible strength growth.

My top unit, however, is most certainly Lute. With 44 HP, 30 Mag, 24 Skill, 26 Speed, 19 Defense and 25 Resistance, I can make her a one woman army; Now, most times Lute does not grow as such with HP and Defense, but she is still a remarkable unit.

[dondon151]

Begone, troll!

[Caliban of Sycorax]

lolmarisa

I agree on the Josh part, but his support partners suck, barring Natasha who's too busy running around spamhealing.

[Ring Wraith]

Whoa. Innes only has 5 chapters before the final? How did I forget about that (especially since I'm on chapter 17 of an Ephraim run right now)...I still think he should be higher than he is, but not as high. I wouldn't consider him worse than Knoll, and you get them the same chapter. Innes can actually take a few hits. And he's below Neimi right now...Maybe below Ross would be suitable. I'm a big fan of Ross though, and would probably put him at high tier if I could.

[grandjackal]

So I can't help but notice that Colm's top tier. I am enraged.

First off, let's go over the fact that Colm's offense is absolutely ass at base. 4 Str on swords and stuck to E, meaning he's stuck with 9 might on Iron. This man has base Eirika's offense if we took away Rapier, took away Steel, and made her join 3 chapters later. Aside from Gilliam, Ross and Neimi, Colm's pretty much the worst unit on the team currently. Even though he doubles, it's obvious that 9 mt does not ORKO a damn thing, and that he'll always be taking a counter with his fantastic 18 HP and 3 Def. This inhibits his leveling speed, since we can get through these early chapters reletively fast, and he can't quite kill enough enemies in that time to keep himself at a good level despite thief increased exp game since he's always 2RKOing at best, and having to worry about getting hit. Let's think about chapter 5. How much can he really do? Every option he'll have to deal with at least 1 soldier having WTA on hm and an archer, of whom I'm positive are 2RKOing him when attacking together. Even against axers, he's most likely only 2RKOing. 6 turns best, it means 3 kills at best.

Let's run through chapters 1 by 1 for a short bit of earlygame. His opening he basically starts as far from the action ashe could get. By the time he kills the bandit in the treasure room, we could be barreling through the main room before Bazba. 1 Kill and 1 chip is not helping too much.

Chapter 4, he's still rocking 9 might, which isn't even enough to kill floating eyes (who tend to have 20 HP, thus impossible for Colm to ORKO), and it's not gonna kill meatier zombies, or the myriad of spear skeletons skulking about. Skeletons n particular prove to be a nuisance to Colm since he can't really do any substantial damage to them while they can laugh in his face. I'd imagine 3 kills is cutting it close for the guy, considering how silly easy this chapter can be, so let's go with 2. He's gotten a level up.

So, we skip to Renvall, since we already went over Serafew. Colm now basically has 5 Str, and is still not close to D rank. Let's see what his competition is.

Eirika: Basically him, just better due to level lead and weapon ranks.

Franz: No contest.

Gilliam: Should Colm really be proud he's doing better than Gil?

Vanessa: No

Moulder: He's a healbot, he's got a good excuse.

Garcia: He's still good for the time being, especially with all the incoming lance units.

Ross: I remember way back when that I actually have shown that Ross under the turncounts comparable to the lowest (at the time anyways, and it relied on Seth as well so those turncounts were far tighter to work with) thathe could get out of his trainee mode by chapter 6. 1-2 range, the speed to deal with soldiers (since Colm still can't quite ORKO things due to STR, and Ross hits like a truck to make up for not doubling a better majority), so we at least got something for our effort in a loldier killer, along with someone who can help rush the castle through Waterwalk if we chose pirate (Granted you could still fly someone over, but Ross helps without needing a ferry). Colm on the other hand is still awful at combat.

Natasha: See Moulder

Joshua: An even worse assbeating than what Eirika gives Colm.

Then comes Kyle and Forde, and suddenly Colm just feels like some dude. So why is he so high? Thief utility? I'd argue that thief utility, especially early on, and painfully so if we go Eirika route, means dick.

First off, the chests in Bazba's fort are worthless. The Javelin sounds nice, but hardly necessary, and the bandit near the chest has a chest key anyways. There is nothing worth stealing, and then we hit Renvall. It has a Gem, a Silver Sword, and a Sky Whip. First off, that chest key can be used to get the Gem. Second, that whip and sword are clear across the map, of which we could possibly finish before he can unlock both. Ephraim from 5x could also opt to forgo the Elixer and Killer Lance, taking the keys to get these items with 0 hassle. So, it's not like Colm is the reason we're getting these things, since we're merely sacrificing items that are essentially total luxuries at this point of the game.

If we're going Ephraim route then yeah, he's got Rigwald and Grado Keep to rob to his delight, but Eirika's route is far tighter to deal with. We got L'arachel's map of which yields a Secret Book (4K's nice, but I'm not really crying over it), a Restore Staff (If we haven't killed everything there by the time we get it, considering how out of the way it is), and some other item that escapes me. Only in QoWD does he nab us anything in particular, namely an Energy Ring and a few more fancy trinkets, as the other half goes to Rennac. This is if you haven't just said "Screw it" and got chest keys instead. You might think the cost of keys would be too much compared to the lockpick, but you can always sell the lockpick, which can fetch a decent amount of gold. In fact, selling a lockpick nets you 2 chest keys, essentially. Which is...Exactly the number of chests on the southern side of QoWD. There's an extra chest, but it contains a Dragonspear, which is basically a useless weapon. Then Rennac's on the team, and does everything Colm does for free, no exp needed, nor promotion item. In fact, 20/1 Colm only has 2 Str, 3 Spd (which is superfluous when you consider that Rennac's 17 is perfectly fine), and 5 HP while Rennac's got 2 Def, 6 Res, and most likely still wins weapon rank. I'm not impressed when it comes to the cost of a pricy Ocean Seal, and the fact that being slightly less meh than Rennac's not winning you any prizes.

So in the end, what does this guy really have credit of giving us on Eirika route? A Secret Book. 4K basically. Would you take this over dudes like Cormag and Deussal?

[dondon151]

Dragonspear is not a useless weapon, but I never had any need for a thief when I played through the game.

[Anouleth]

I agree with you on Colm. You have plenty of money to buy Chest Keys, and his combat is decidedly sub-par.

Eirika's Route on the other hand I think he could have an argument against Ephriam who's above him, simply just based on availability, but I would have to ask what level we're assuming when Ephraim comes back from his soloing of Grado. We assuming Orson isn't rickrolling5x? Though looking at stats, I suppose it wouldn't matter too much. Ephraim at 10/1 Is still fairly decent...Could definitely be better, but decent. And considering he's a dude on a horse and has enemy phase...

Ephraim will probably be higher levelled than that. Orson can't carry Ephraim through the whole of 5x because it destroys his speed, so Ephraim can pick up some kills there and in Chapter 8. He can also get some kills in Chapter 15 and from the reinforcements in Chapter 16 (just plonk him on a forest or whatever with his Reginleif).

Dragonspear is not a useless weapon, but I never had any need for a thief when I played through the game.

You used Colm and Rennac in Chapter 15 to get desert items.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Anouleth

[I.M. Gei]

Joshua is a superior unit to almost anyone else, should you give him the Boots.

Despite being swordlocked, Joshua will critical without a support at a 1-in-3 ratio, minimum, without a killing edge or a shamshir.

Another phenomenal unit is Marisa, due to the fact that as an Assassin, she will dodge nearly anything. Unfortunately, her use is limited due to terrible strength growth.

My top unit, however, is most certainly Lute. With 44 HP, 30 Mag, 24 Skill, 26 Speed, 19 Defense and 25 Resistance, I can make her a one woman army; Now, most times Lute does not grow as such with HP and Defense, but she is still a remarkable unit.

PEMN, kiddo

[Integrity]

Joshua is a superior unit to almost anyone else, should you give him the Boots.

Ready?

*clears throat*

2 range.

*bows, leaves*

[Rewjeo]

Colm needs to be out of top that's been agreed on. I'ma gonna go kick him into High Tier now. Would anyone object to him going below Eir. Eirika, too? Or even farther?

[grandjackal]

I'd put him in Lower Mid personally, but if that's an exaggeration, let's just say putting him above people who actually put out good combat is disgusting. People like Cormag and Deussal. If only because he helps us get some juicy desert treasure (which is half-credit shared with Rennac).

[Ring Wraith]

Lower mid actually looks like a fitting spot for him.

[Rewjeo]

You can't give him ZERO credit for his thieving. At least earlygame he's helpful for that. Then there's the desert, which admittedly is shared credit with Rennac. But if he's being used as a combatant, I would rather bring him than Rennac for also being useful outside of finding stuff.

I sorta hate tiering thieves. You have to give them credit for ALWAYS doing certain things (like opening chests) but only SOMETIMES will he be used for combat, whereas with other units, it is assumed that, when they're used, they're used.