Arms Scroll Analysis

[aku chi]

It makes sense when you consider having a Calill who can 2HKO Schaeffer is worth more than Staffbot!Soren, and takes less resources to boot.

Arguable and irrelevant.

So we should ignore this obvious solution because the player may be lazy/inept?

No. But neither should it be assumed, especially if it depends on a multitude of shoves to execute.

The point I am trying to make is that giving Soren a Master Seal so he can be a worse staff bot than Mist/Rhys and an Arms Scroll so he can be a worse Siegebot than Calill is a waste.

Your point is not topical (nor do I agree with it). It isn't hard to recognize that Calill won't always be trained and used such that she renders every other Sage's potential siege utility irrelevant. When Calill isn't trained, the Mages would like to wield all three siege tomes, and may need an Arms Scroll or two to do so.

Since Calill exists, no, it is not a reasonable situation.

So, from your perspective, it is unreasonable to not give Calill at least 2 levels of Cexp/Bexp and a Spirit Dust before Chapter 20, even if you have already trained a Sage that can 2HKO Schaeffer by his/herself?

Edited May 27, 2011 by aku chi

[Radiant Dragon]

Your point is not topical (nor do I agree with it). It isn't hard to recognize that Calill won't always be trained and used such that she renders every other Sage's potential siege utility irrelevant. When Calill isn't trained, the Mages would like to wield all three siege tomes, and may need an Arms Scroll or two to do so.

When we can give base Calill the Spirit Dust and 2 levels of BEXP to clear the chapter, you're going to be hard pressed to convince me that giving Soren both of our Arms Scrolls is a better alternative.

So, from your perspective, it is unreasonable to not give Calill at least 2 levels of Cexp/Bexp and a Spirit Dust before Chapter 20, even if you have already trained a Sage that can 2HKO Schaeffer by his/herself?

This was not your original point. Your point was Soren only benefits from an Arms Scroll if we don't train another Sage. I'm saying that Calill doesn't need to be trained, so whether or not we trained another Sage is irrelevant.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[dondon151]

Life, I think you're wasting your time with going through the plethora of characters that will probably never want an Arms Scroll. You should just cut to the chase and list out the most likely candidates.

[aku chi]

When we can give base Calill the Spirit Dust and 2 levels of BEXP to clear the chapter, you're going to be hard pressed to convince me that giving Soren both of our Arms Scrolls is a better alternative.

1 Arms Scroll is all that is needed for Soren to wield Meteor. If you're assuming that you have a Bolting available for Calill in Chapter 22, Soren won't need an Arms Scroll at all (he can reach C Thunder naturally, if focused on after promotion).

The reason I mentioned "one or two" Arms Scrolls is that I was alluding to Ilyana and Tormod's situations. Ilyana is a lock for C Thunder, but she needs to go out of her way for C Fire and C Wind. C Fire is probably possible, if she focuses on it after promotion (otherwise, she might want an Arms Scroll). C Wind probably isn't worth it: Blizzard is the worst of the siege tomes. Tormod starts with C Fire, but probably doesn't have enough time to build up C Thunder before C23, so he'll want an Arms Scroll for that. Like Ilyana, he'd need an Arms Scroll for C Wind, but it probably isn't worth it.

This was not your original point. Your point was Soren only benefits from an Arms Scroll if we don't train another Sage. I'm saying that Calill doesn't need to be trained, so whether or not we trained another Sage is irrelevant.

Clarification of terms: "the Spirit Dust and 2 levels of BEXP" counts as being trained in my eyes. One could make the case that a single Arms Scroll is less valuable that that particular resource bundle.

[Radiant Dragon]

1 Arms Scroll is all that is needed for Soren to wield Meteor. If you're assuming that you have a Bolting available for Calill in Chapter 22, Soren won't need an Arms Scroll at all (he can reach C Thunder naturally, if focused on after promotion).

He can't reach C Thunder naturally by Chapter 22 without promoting early (and by doing so, we neuter his stats, so the point that he can equip Bolting means little).

The reason I mentioned "one or two" Arms Scrolls is that I was alluding to Ilyana and Tormod's situations. Ilyana is a lock for C Thunder, but she needs to go out of her way for C Fire and C Wind. C Fire is probably possible, if she focuses on it after promotion (otherwise, she might want an Arms Scroll). C Wind probably isn't worth it: Blizzard is the worst of the siege tomes. Tormod starts with C Fire, but probably doesn't have enough time to build up C Thunder before C23, so he'll want an Arms Scroll for that. Like Ilyana, he'd need an Arms Scroll for C Wind, but it probably isn't worth it.

Blizzard may have the lowest might, but it also has the lowest weight, so any Sage not named Soren can double with it easier (Soren's strength is irredeemable).

Clarification of terms: "the Spirit Dust and 2 levels of BEXP" counts as being trained in my eyes. One could make the case that a single Arms Scroll is less valuable that that particular resource bundle.

Perhaps, but it's not just a single Arms Scroll; It's an Arms Scroll and much more BEXP and CEXP (which I'm not saying Soren isn't entitled to). Soren can't 2HKO Schaeffer so easily.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[aku chi]

Man, this argument is such a moving target. Either Soren doesn't need Arms Scrolls to reach C Fire/Thunder, or Soren does need an Arms Scroll to reach both C Fire/Thunder. Either 2 siege tomes are plently for Soren, or all 4 aren't enough. I can only suppose that all of this discussion is stemming, not from an Arms Scroll use perspective, but a latent Sage/Mage use and tiering perspective.

He can't reach C Thunder naturally by Chapter 22 without promoting early (and by doing so, we neuter his stats, so the point that he can equip Bolting means little).

I disagree. By promoting him around C15 or C17-1, he will have enough time to reach C Thunder. 17-3 is ten guaranteed turns of self-improvement in and of itself.

Blizzard may have the lowest might, but it also has the lowest weight, so any Sage not named Soren can double with it easier (Soren's strength is irredeemable).

True, but not by much. Blizzard has 1 less Wt than Meteor, but 3 less Mt, a pretty raw deal. Blizzard is the least valuable of the three siege tomes, but it's certainly not valueless. I just think it is least worth an Arms Scroll for.

Perhaps, but it's not just a single Arms Scroll; It's an Arms Scroll and much more BEXP and CEXP (which I'm not saying Soren isn't entitled to). Soren can't 2HKO Schaeffer so easily.

This is not a discussion about which Sage is the best siege tome user (that would clearly be Calill). This is a discussion about using an Arms Scroll on Soren. For the purpose of this discussion, Soren is being used and trained. The Arms Scroll is the only relevant resource to be considered for Soren. It's valuable so long as no other Sages are being trained along with Soren.

[Radiant Dragon]

Man, this argument is such a moving target. Either Soren doesn't need Arms Scrolls to reach C Fire/Thunder, or Soren does need an Arms Scroll to reach both C Fire/Thunder. Either 2 siege tomes are plently for Soren, or all 4 aren't enough. I can only suppose that all of this discussion is stemming, not from an Arms Scroll use perspective, but a latent Sage/Mage use and tiering perspective.

Red Fox and I have been making separate arguments. I never mentioned anything about siege tomes running out.

I disagree. By promoting him around C15 or C17-1, he will have enough time to reach C Thunder. 17-3 is ten guaranteed turns of self-improvement in and of itself.

I specifically said 'without promoting early'. No way is Soren promoting naturally before midway through Chapter 17 without favoritism.

This is not a discussion about which Sage is the best siege tome user (that would clearly be Calill). This is a discussion about using an Arms Scroll on Soren. For the purpose of this discussion, Soren is being used and trained. The Arms Scroll is the only relevant resource to be considered for Soren. It's valuable so long as no other Sages are being trained along with Soren.

Well, I've been arguing that the Spirit Dust + BEXP for Calill is worth less than the Arms Scroll + more BEXP (or Sprit Dust and about equal BEXP) for Soren. Because of this, there are better uses for Arms Scrolls, so Soren is low priority for one.

That, and the uselessness of early promoted Sages, but that's another topic.

[Life]

Life, I think you're wasting your time with going through the plethora of characters that will probably never want an Arms Scroll. You should just cut to the chase and list out the most likely candidates.

I figure stuff out as I go through the list. Besides, I'd rather just have everyone on there for completion sake.

Also, Aku, I get your point but I'm not convinced that an Arms Scroll is actually going to do anything noticeable for Soren. He really doesn't need a C in all ranks because Tormod has C Fire upon joining, Ilyana will hit C Thunder and maybe something else and Calill is Bs across the board. Why do we need Soren to have complete control over the siege tomes? What does that really do for him? If a character gets a bit stronger but it's not a noticeable change, he's not using the Arms Scroll right. You'll see what I mean when I reach Devdan.

[NTNP]

@Life: I really hope that you keep updating this list. I've never really made much use of arm scrolls during my play throughs and I would be interested in hearing what else you think about these character's usage of arm scrolls.

[Life]

@Life: I really hope that you keep updating this list. I've never really made much use of arm scrolls during my play throughs and I would be interested in hearing what else you think about these character's usage of arm scrolls.

Thanks. My goal is to finish this by the end of the week so we'll see how it goes. I'd like to be done until Tormod by the end of tonight.

[Shadow Mir]

Nephenee (Chapter 11): E Lance. Nephenee gets a lot of heat for starting with only E Lances since she requires an Iron Lance forge for her offense. But consider this. For Nephenee to start going nuts, she needs C Lances for the Killer Lance (has something to do with her innate Wrath). At the very least, this requires 30 Iron Lance uses and then another 20 Steel Lance uses. Why not drop her an Arms Scroll and start using a Steel Lance right away? Now she only needs 20 attacks and a Killer Lance is going to have her destroying shit.

Mathwise, Level 12/0 Nephenee has 22 Atk with an Iron Lance forge. Without an Arms Scroll, she's got to use that Iron Lance at least 30 times before moving to Steel. Meanwhile, that same Nephenee with an Arms Scroll sports 20 Atk with a Steel Lance but is also only 20 attacks away from using the Killer Lance, which is possible by the end of Chapter 13. She only loses 3 AS which drops her to about 9~10 AS, too fast to be doubled. I see an Arms Scroll on Neph as being something that immediately pulls her out of her major rut (her start). Uses the Arms Scroll well in order to get good much quicker.

For some reason, I have my doubts about this... Mainly because Nephenee wouldn't like wielding a Steel Lance off the bat unless it is a forge. And also, the following chapter has ravens. Thousands of them.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Colonel M]

With Tormod could you put lots of sarcasm that he sucks so Anouleth gets infuriated? :D Liking the analyses so far. Keep it up.

[Life]

For some reason, I have my doubts about this... Mainly because Nephenee wouldn't like wielding a Steel Lance off the bat unless it wa a forge.

Bullshit. It's the idea of risk-reward. Nephenee stays mediocre for 3 chapters and then suddenly gets really good starting in Chapter 14 since she's got access the Killer Lance and the Short Spear. The opposite is that Nephenee is mediocre until about the end of 17 or so.

[Shadow Mir]

Bullshit. It's the idea of risk-reward. Nephenee stays mediocre for 3 chapters and then suddenly gets really good starting in Chapter 14 since she's got access the Killer Lance and the Short Spear. The opposite is that Nephenee is mediocre until about the end of 17 or so.

I see where you're coming from, but like I said, Steel Lance Neph would get doubled by the ravens in the next chapter.

[Life]

I see where you're coming from, but like I said, Steel Lance Neph would get doubled by the ravens in the next chapter.

For 20 swings between the start of Chapter 11 and the end of Chapter 13, Neph doesn't need to be fielded in Chapter 12. Besides, she's never good there anyways.

[Shadow Mir]

For 20 swings between the start of Chapter 11 and the end of Chapter 13, Neph doesn't need to be fielded in Chapter 12. Besides, she's never good there anyways.

Okay. I give.

[aku chi]

Ilyana (Chapter 8): D Thunder, E Fire, E Wind, (D Fire, D Wind). See the Soren entry. Ilyana is a lock for C Thunder (40 Thunders or 20 Elthunders) and can use the Chapter 16 Bolting quickly. After that, train the Fire rank (2 Fire tomes is enough) to use Meteor. See Soren.

Maybe. Ilyana might be able to reach C Thunder and C Fire in time. But you'd have to use fire tomes when you wouldn't otherwise want to. An Arms Scroll for C Fire isn't out of the question.

Rolf (Chapter 9): E Bows. I've put a bit of time into thinking about Rolf and it's possible that the kid is actually salvageable with an Arms Scroll (he'll still be mediocre). I'd need to do some testing of this since it involves Rolf having C Bows by the end of Chapter 13 (without downing the second Arms Scroll). But Longbow access from Chapter 10 on sounds pretty neat.

Yeah, Rolf kinda has Nephenee syndrome, except he's a lot worse. He could certainly benefit from an early Arms Scroll for immediate access to Steel Bows and Longbows and earlier access to Killer and Laguz Bows, but it generally won't be worth it.

Mist (Chapter 9): D Staff, (D Sword). And now we're at Mist. This entry alone could easily be an essay so I'll try to keep it short.

The general idea of sinking an Arms Scroll (and usually both) into Mist is for her to use the Sonic Sword. Assuming a 10/1 Mist (best time to seal her if only for the horse), she's only got 19 Atk with a forged Steel Sword which costs just under 4000G in order to maximize Mist's offense. It still takes 20 hits to move up to C and 19 Atk is borderline pathetic when Mist needs to go up close to attack. Putting both Arm Scrolls on Mist should free up the Sonic Sword. But even with the SS, 10/10 Mist only sports 23 Atk from afar. All the Sonic Sword does is give Mist passable offense. If you want Mist to fight, give her the Arms Scrolls. Otherwise, forget it.

23 Atk hitting Resistance is generally enough to 2HKO physical enemies: Mist's offense can be scary good with the Sonic Sword. The big problem with this strategy is that the Sonic Sword only has 25 uses. A Hammerne use can extend this significantly, but that's another resource added to the pile. My perspective is that the Sonic Sword Mist strategy is only worth considering if you don't have any other good Sonic Sword candidates. Oh, and it is at least possible to use 17-3 to get Mist to C Swords so that you only need to drop one Arms Scroll on her.

Marcia (Chapter 9): D Lance, (E Sword). I can't honestly think of a reason to throw Marcia an Arms Scroll. Unlike Gatrie (who has identical ranks), she actually doubles and is easily worth a Steel Lance forge. And like Boyd/Oscar, giving her an Arms Scroll for her sword rank makes her better quicker but it doesn't have a real effect (it's even less noticable than either of the brothers since Oscar gets 1-2 range with the Short Axe while Boyd has a legitimate shot at the possibly uncontested Brave Bow) It's just self-improvement for the sake of self-improvement. See Oscar and Boyd.

I don't see Arms Scrolls being useful on Marcia, unless she finds herself just short of C Lances in Chapter 15 and you were banking on her using the Laguz Lance here (oops).

Keiran (Chapter 11): C Axe, (E Sword/Lance/Bow) Keiran is almost exactly like Oscar except with one twist. Innate Gamble.

If Keiran were to sport a Killing Edge and use Gamble, the guy would have nuts Crit and then decent accuracy on top of that (Killing Edge has more Hit than Killer Lance). Dropping him an Arms Scroll lets you abuse Gamble earlier. See Oscar but think Gamble.

I've tried this before. It's not as good as it sounds. Painful as it is, your best bet is to forget about trying to salvage that misplaced Gamble skill. Kieran's axe rank will be fine, so the only case where I can see an Arms Scroll being useful on Kieran is if he gets bows on promotion and is your only bow user. Then he might enjoy exclusive access to the Killer Bow and, eventually, the Brave Bow.

Brom (Chapter 11): D Lance, (E Sword). Brom's weapon levels suck. Marcia had those 2 chapters ago. That being said, C level lances are starting to appear and Brom would like them. The Killer Lance shows up in this chapter and the Short Spear's been around since the start of Chapter 7 (though it's probably half broken by now). Brom would really appreciate the Crit boost from the Killer Lance (considering that he's not going to be doubling shit for a long while) but there are much better units to use the Killer Lance (like the one I'm about to mention next), not to mention that he'll fall off the wagon soon for only having 5 Move (6 on promotion). Don't bother using it for his sword rank. If you want to salvage Brom, have him pop down the Arms Scroll immediately.

I don't think that the Killer Lance is ever worth using an Arms Scroll for. Especially on Brom.

Nephenee (Chapter 11): E Lance. Nephenee gets a lot of heat for starting with only E Lances since she requires an Iron Lance forge for her offense. But consider this. For Nephenee to start going nuts, she needs C Lances for the Killer Lance (has something to do with her innate Wrath). At the very least, this requires 30 Iron Lance uses and then another 20 Steel Lance uses. Why not drop her an Arms Scroll and start using a Steel Lance right away? Now she only needs 20 attacks and a Killer Lance is going to have her destroying shit.

Mathwise, Level 12/0 Nephenee has 22 Atk with an Iron Lance forge. Without an Arms Scroll, she's got to use that Iron Lance at least 30 times before moving to Steel. Meanwhile, that same Nephenee with an Arms Scroll sports 20 Atk with a Steel Lance but is also only 20 attacks away from using the Killer Lance, which is possible by the end of Chapter 13. She only loses 3 AS which drops her to about 9~10 AS, too fast to be doubled. I see an Arms Scroll on Neph as being something that immediately pulls her out of her major rut (her start). Uses the Arms Scroll well in order to get good much quicker.

Yeah, this is one of the best Arms Scroll uses. It takes forever for Nephenee to drag herself out of her E Lances hole otherwise. Realize, though, that Nephenee doesn't have to glue a Steel Lance to her hands just because she has D Lances. If the AS loss is problematic, switch to an Iron Lance until it's no longer an issue.

[Shadow Mir]

Yeah, Rolf kinda has Nephenee syndrome, except he's a lot worse. He could certainly benefit from an early Arms Scroll for immediate access to Steel Bows and Longbows and earlier access to Killer and Laguz Bows, but it generally won't be worth it.

Ehhh, I don't really see longbows as being worth wielding. Really? 5 Mt and 65 Hit?? That's laughably pathetic.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[aku chi]

Ehhh, I don't really see longbows as being worth wielding. Really? 5 Mt and 65 Hit?? That's laughably pathetic.

Longbows are certainly poor weapons, but 3 range is still occasionally useful. Nothing worth using an Arms Scroll for, though.

[Life]

Longbows are certainly poor weapons, but 3 range is still occasionally useful. Nothing worth using an Arms Scroll for, though.

Actually, Longbows give off 2 WExp along with 1 extra range. While Steel Bows do the same, Rolf's Bow is better than Steel Bows (no AS penalty, 30+ Hit and 5 Crit in return for -1 Mt) but only delivers a single point of WExp. This is worth noting if you're trying to get Rolf to C Bows as quick as possible.

That being said, I need to actually test this out for myself to figure out if it's worth it.

[Shadow Mir]

Actually, Longbows give off 2 WExp along with 1 extra range. While Steel Bows do the same, Rolf's Bow is better than Steel Bows (no AS penalty, 30+ Hit and 5 Crit in return for -1 Mt) but only delivers a single point of WExp. This is worth noting if you're trying to get Rolf to C Bows as quick as possible.

That being said, I need to actually test this out for myself to figure out if it's worth it.

Actually, Rolf's Bow gives 2 WEXP.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Life]

Actually, Rolf's Bow gives 2 WEXP.

Huh, fancy that. Scratch that, Rolf's Bow is officially better than the Steel Bow.

[eclipse]

That's odd, you could've ended the list with Sothe (who gets about as many words as Volke).

[dondon151]

My perspective is that the Sonic Sword Mist strategy is only worth considering if you don't have any other good Sonic Sword candidates.

So basically, never, seeing as how Tanith joins with the Sonic Sword and Stefan joins a few chapters before.

[Florete]

Nephenee (Chapter 11): E Lance. Nephenee gets a lot of heat for starting with only E Lances since she requires an Iron Lance forge for her offense. But consider this. For Nephenee to start going nuts, she needs C Lances for the Killer Lance (has something to do with her innate Wrath). At the very least, this requires 30 Iron Lance uses and then another 20 Steel Lance uses. Why not drop her an Arms Scroll and start using a Steel Lance right away? Now she only needs 20 attacks and a Killer Lance is going to have her destroying shit.

Mathwise, Level 12/0 Nephenee has 22 Atk with an Iron Lance forge. Without an Arms Scroll, she's got to use that Iron Lance at least 30 times before moving to Steel. Meanwhile, that same Nephenee with an Arms Scroll sports 20 Atk with a Steel Lance but is also only 20 attacks away from using the Killer Lance, which is possible by the end of Chapter 13. She only loses 3 AS which drops her to about 9~10 AS, too fast to be doubled. I see an Arms Scroll on Neph as being something that immediately pulls her out of her major rut (her start). Uses the Arms Scroll well in order to get good much quicker.

Due to Steel forges being unavailable until Ch 14, I'd find it better to hand her a powerful Iron forge, let her double for 15 rounds, then give her an Arms Scroll if that's your plan. She's going to be losing AS from Steel until she's near promotion and it's weaker than an Iron forge, so it would only be beneficial if she actually doubles with it, which isn't likely right off the bat. Even if she doubles with Steel consistently, it's only 10 rounds vs 15, but the 15 is with a stronger and more accurate weapon.