Reformatting Growths

[Bryan]

I've been Nightmareing it up for this game, and was thinking about what growth rates each character should get. However, I suck at balancing shit. :(

So, I am calling on you. What would you change each unit's growth rates to be? I'll release a patch once this is done. I'll probably level Lilina, Sue, & Sofiya, and other units like them.

Here's the link for averages & Growth rates.

http://serenesforest.net/fe6/average/

http://serenesforest.net/fe6/growth.html

What do you guys think?

[Anouleth]

The main problem with a lot of characters in this game is bases, not growths. For example, Wendy has quite fine growths: for instance, they're better than Lot's. What cripples her is her base stats.

[Bryan]

The main problem with a lot of characters in this game is bases, not growths. For example, Wendy has quite fine growths: for instance, they're better than Lot's. What cripples her is her base stats.

That is another part of it, but I didn't care quite as much about Bases as I do about the growths. I can edit people's bases after I get growths in place.

[dondon151]

It's a lot easier to fix characters by fixing their bases. Even if you give +10% growth to a stat to a bad character, that character will only see +1 in that stat over 10 levels on average, whereas you can just simply bump up the character's base by 1 to begin with.

[Dunal]

These are my changes

Some of them were simply for flavour or variety between units. But that's the kind of changes you need. Although you also have to take into account the difficulty changes in said hack. Otherwise units such as Marcus would be less changed etc...

Weapons also hold a lot of weight as well. You don't need to change Thany all that much if lances are lighter or slim lances are stronger for example. That goes for some other units too.

[Radiant Dragon]

These are my changes

Why exactly does Lalum/Elphin need a 50%/60% strength growth?

[Bryan]

Why exactly does Lalum/Elphin need a 50%/60% strength growth?

DLuna has them with the ability to fight.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Bryan

[Dunal]

DLuna has them with the ability to fight.

Yes, as does Merlinus. Their added combat utility is similar to the thieves, though. They can fight when they really need to and/or defend themselves, but that's about it. Merlinus is a special case since while his supply utility has limited use, he can now survive worth a damn and can't really be killed. Good decoy.

My hack is almost finished. So if you want to play a re-balanced version you could just wait for that. However, It's primarily a difficulty changer.

[Anouleth]

Marcus, Dieck, Chad, Astohl, Lalum, Elphin, Klein, Echidna, Shin, Percival, and Thany are already among the best characters in the game, yet you have given them all buffs. Only Lance, Allen, Miledy, and Rutger have been outright nerfed.

[Dunal]

Marcus, Dieck, Chad, Astohl, Lalum, Elphin, Klein, Echidna, Shin, Percival, and Thany are already among the best characters in the game, yet you have given them all buffs. Only Lance, Allen, Miledy, and Rutger have been outright nerfed.

Lalum and Elphin's combat won't make them any better. If they're being used for combat then you're not using them right. It actually makes them worse. Sure, they can now defend themselves if/when they get attacked. But that won't mean much, they still die easily.

Marcus is obviously worse. Chapters 1-7 are now easier. Chapters 8+ are now harder. And he has slightly worse bases. Those better growths will only start to kick in around chapter 8+ anyway, but he'll still only be moderately useful like in the original game. In chapters 1-7, where he is most useful in the original game, he's worse because the enemies are weaker. He isn't as essential. And his durability isn't all that much better compared to anyone else. Dieck is more or less the same. That one less speed base makes a difference. And being level 8 stunts his growth for a while. He misses out on 2 speed as a result. He doesn't double fighters/archers anymore. There are also more lance users past chapter 8.

For Thany, you could argue that even if I were to nerf her stats, she would still be as useful. She's only a great unit because of flying utility. If the player wanted to use her as a combat unit, then they now can. But it barely makes her any better in terms of what she's known to be great at. Archers are slightly more common than in the original game as well. And they're stronger.

Percival is obviously nerfed. I'm not even going to explain that one. Around -5 bases in STR, SPD and DEF? Yeah.

Echidna no longer doubles a majority of enemies when she joins.

Shin's changes are minor enough only to put him on-par with Gonzales (like everyone else). But he now also has more competiton with the Orion's bolt(s). Since the other three archers are now more or less equally good. Ice affinity doesn't help him either. Klein's the same. His changes are only enough put him on the same level. And his lower growth potential actually means something this time.

Chad and Astohl are the same as Thany. Improving their combat doesn't really change anything. Especially since the enemies are scaled up as well. Their combat is still average. Lance users are more common in some parts too (and axe users are less).

All the prepromotes suffer more mid/late-game though. Since the game is actually hard.

Difficulty does change a lot. Since the late-game is now more important than the early game, units such as Klein/Echidna/Dieck change quite a bit. Growth matters if you want efficency later on. And keeping your ass alive.

Edited June 14, 2011 by DLuna

[Anouleth]

Lalum and Elphin's combat won't make them any better. If they're being used for combat then you're not using them right. It actually makes them worse. Sure, they can now defend themselves if/when they get attacked. But that won't mean much, they still die easily.

Marcus is obviously worse. Chapters 1-7 are now easier. Chapters 8+ are now harder. And he has slightly worse bases. Those better growths will only start to kick in around chapter 8+ anyway, but he'll still only be moderately useful like in the original game. In chapters 1-7, where he is most useful in the original game, he's worse because the enemies are weaker. He isn't as essential. And his durability isn't all that much better compared to anyone else. Dieck is more or less the same. That one less speed base makes a difference. And being level 8 stunts his growth for a while. He misses out on 2 speed as a result. He doesn't double fighters/archers anymore. There are also more lance users past chapter 8.

For Thany, you could argue that even if I were to nerf her stats, she would still be as useful. She's only a great unit because of flying utility. If the player wanted to use her as a combat unit, then they now can. But it barely makes her any better in terms of what she's known to be great at. Archers are slightly more common than in the original game as well. And they're stronger.

Percival is obviously nerfed. I'm not even going to explain that one. Around -5 bases in STR, SPD and DEF? Yeah.

Echidna no longer doubles a majority of enemies when she joins.

Shin's changes are minor enough only to put him on-par with Gonzales (like everyone else). But he now also has more competiton with the Orion's bolt(s). Since the other three archers are now more or less equally good. Ice affinity doesn't help him either. Klein's the same. His changes are only enough put him on the same level. And his lower growth potential actually means something this time.

Chad and Astohl are the same as Thany. Improving their combat doesn't really change anything. Especially since the enemies are scaled up as well. Their combat is still average. Lance users are more common in some parts too (and axe users are less).

All the prepromotes suffer more mid/late-game though. Since the game is actually hard.

Difficulty does change a lot. Since the late-game is now more important than the early game, units such as Klein/Echidna/Dieck change quite a bit. Growth matters if you want efficency later on. And keeping your ass alive.

Well, I didn't appreciate that you changed around everything else, since this topic is discussing changing the growths of characters.

[Dunal]

Well, I didn't appreciate that you changed around everything else, since this topic is discussing changing the growths of characters.

We've already established that growths aren't the only factor. Bases are more important. Assuming that's what you only based your conclusions on, fair enough.

[dondon151]

In chapters 1-7, where he is most useful in the original game, he's worse because the enemies are weaker. He isn't as essential. And his durability isn't all that much better compared to anyone else.

Marcus isn't just essential because his base parameters are good. He had access to Silver Lance, Armorslayer, Hand Axes, and later on (by chapter 7) Hammer, on top of being the most mobile available unit. Even if you make enemies worse so that other player units do better against them, that doesn't make Marcus any worse because he still has those abilities that no other unit has.

In fact, depending on how much worse you made the enemies from chapters 1-7, I'd say it makes Marcus better because he might be able to double and ORKO chapter 4 cavaliers. He also used to be borderline against chapter 6 soldiers with Hand Axe.

All the prepromotes suffer more mid/late-game though. Since the game is actually hard.

I don't understand how this alleviates balance issues. In fact, it makes them worse, especially in the cases of Echidna and Percival, who are not only worse on their own, but are also worse relative to the enemies. Most other prepromoted units aren't actually that great.

Edited June 14, 2011 by dondon151

[Dunal]

Marcus isn't just essential because his base parameters are good. He had access to Silver Lance, Armorslayer, Hand Axes, and later on (by chapter 7) Hammer, on top of being the most mobile available unit. Even if you make enemies worse so that other player units do better against them, that doesn't make Marcus any worse because he still has those abilities that no other unit has.

In fact, depending on how much worse you made the enemies from chapters 1-7, I'd say it makes Marcus better because he might be able to double and ORKO chapter 4 cavaliers. He also used to be borderline against chapter 6 soldiers with Hand Axe.

The whole idea is that Marcus is slightly nerfed overall. What you say is true, but since enemies are slightly weaker and all your other units (except Alan/Lance, Rutger and Dieck) are stronger, it does make a difference. The growth boost only keeps his preformance the same post chapter 8 or so. Before then, his nerf is on around the same level as the other four units. As in; not all that much, since they all should be at the same level as Gonzales, whom was more or less unchanged.

On the subject of enemies, most retain their durability early on, only their atk/spd was nerfed. Soldiers got a speed buff. But that's about it.

I don't understand how this alleviates balance issues. In fact, it makes them worse, especially in the cases of Echidna and Percival, who are not only worse on their own, but are also worse relative to the enemies. Most other prepromoted units aren't actually that great.

Echidna and Percival have better growths, but worse bases. They're still moderately good when you recruit them. And their better growths keep them that way; just not as great as the original game. Enemies may be stronger, yes. But that effects all units. And since they both have slightly better growths, they don't end up much different than in the original game, only that they're worse initially. They're still very usable/useful, they're not that much worse relative to other units compared to the original game.

I don't think your logic quite works for when they join. Although I do understand it. Sure, their stats are worse and enemies are better. That seems like a double negative. But all units are effected by the difficulty. Take Gonzales (who was almost unchanged). If he 2RKOed in the original game, then he would now 3RKO in the hack (not necessarily, but just an example). Percival's preformance would drop in the exact same way, only that he's still better than Gonzales (perhaps even better, since there would be more immediate demand for powerful units). So in relative to other units, he doesn't change. The stat nerfs for Percival only then makes him comparable to Gonzales, otherwise he would still be better. So it's not really a double negative, since that one negative applies for all units.

Other prepromotes are actually better. Bartre, Igrene, Yodel etc... And considering the stat nerfs that say, Percival has, his stats are now comparable to Igrene who joins at the same time (taking into account 8 move and full weapon triangle). As it should be.

I don't think I've explained it perfectly but there you go. I've done so much testing (and stat averages) for whatever it's worth, and while on paper some things may not seem right, it's better in practice. But then I've also taken into account supports, item changes/avaliability, enemy classes etc... So it's not much worth debating over it.

Edited June 15, 2011 by DLuna

[A2ZOMG]

It's a lot easier to fix characters by fixing their bases. Even if you give +10% growth to a stat to a bad character, that character will only see +1 in that stat over 10 levels on average, whereas you can just simply bump up the character's base by 1 to begin with.

This.

At any rate though the way I'd try to approach tweaking growths and stats in this game is that it's okay if there are units who aren't offensive monsters that double everything, but they should at least be able to hit consistently and/or take hits really well. And at the very least if they can't do either of that, they shouldn't be getting doubled right off the start.

Edited June 20, 2011 by A2ZOMG

[Reikken]

When I change growths, I'm changing bases at the same time. It doesn't make any sense to do them separately.

As for what kinds of changes, I rather like having great variety in unit builds, as well as some stat builds being extreme. One thing I like to do is take the character and think about what they're good/bad at or known for and make that way more extreme, of course while preserving balance.

Using the four cavaliers as an example, normally Alan and Lance are very similar, and Treck and Noah are also almost the same and also don't really have any advantages over Alan and Lance. This must be fixed. First of all they need to be diversified, so I thought I'd make one in each pair offensive and the other defensive. Alan is the str guy, so he goes offensive in a str-oriented way. Tons of str, decent spd/skl, and bad defenses. Lance is then the defensive counterpart. He's the speed guy, so he can be defensive in an avoid-oriented way. Tons of speed, bad str/skl, decent hp/def/res, good luck. Now Noah and Treck. Noah strikes me as skillful, what with starting with a C in swords normally along with that D in lances, whereas every other cavalier has E swords, so he gets monstrous skl and good spd and decent str, and bad defenses. And Treck, the slow dumb guy, can be a tank on a horse. Massive def and decent str, but meh spd and horribly terrible skl.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Reikken

[A2ZOMG]

Those are pretty well-thought out ideas.

The armors in this game likewise also need to be looked at, given they all suck for the same reasons. Slow, bad move, bad hit. And in several cases not even able to actually defend well. Miledy's defenses aren't that much higher than that of the Armors for instance, except she has better survivability than any of them since she doesn't get doubled and has better evade.

In the case of almost all the Armors, to make up for the fact they have terrible speed, they really should at least have better accuracy given that they wield some of the most inaccurate weapons in the game. As trained knights of their region, it personally makes sense to me that they should have higher base skill. Especially for Barth, it would actually make him worth using on the enemy phase if he actually had a real skill stat, say 10 or so when he joins. Bors in particular either needs an extra point of speed, or 5 more base HP, and he'd be mostly set, and I'd envision him as the most defensive of the knights with the best combination of spd, luk, def. Wendy on the other hand I'd want to give at least a starting speed stat of at least 7 or so, to emphasize her ability as the most offensive of the armors.

[Dunal]

Those are pretty well-thought out ideas.

The armors in this game likewise also need to be looked at, given they all suck for the same reasons. Slow, bad move, bad hit. And in several cases not even able to actually defend well. Miledy's defenses aren't that much higher than that of the Armors for instance, except she has better survivability than any of them since she doesn't get doubled and has better evade.

In the case of almost all the Armors, to make up for the fact they have terrible speed, they really should at least have better accuracy given that they wield some of the most inaccurate weapons in the game. As trained knights of their region, it personally makes sense to me that they should have higher base skill. Especially for Barth, it would actually make him worth using on the enemy phase if he actually had a real skill stat, say 10 or so when he joins. Bors in particular either needs an extra point of speed, or 5 more base HP, and he'd be mostly set, and I'd envision him as the most defensive of the knights with the best combination of spd, luk, def. Wendy on the other hand I'd want to give at least a starting speed stat of at least 7 or so, to emphasize her ability as the most offensive of the armors.

For the Armors to be useful, enemies would have to change a lot as well. Knights are typically more useful when the enemies are strong enough for them to matter. Otherwise they're just overkill; and their lack of movement makes them redundant.

My philosophy is that Knights should have high STR, DEF & SKL. I personally made Wendy unique by giving her lots of RES too. What makes Oswin stand out in FE7 however is that his growths are very dependable (especially DEF), in this game, the knight's DEF growths are just far too low, especially Wendy/Bors. Base stats are mediocre as well for all of them.

[Onmi]

Well for my hack I gave everyone Base 320 Growths for the units without promotions. Base 355 for the 3 Lords, and Base 230 for the Pre-Promotes. The only variation to this rule are the 'Gato' Archetype units *Karel, Yodel, Niime, Gale* who have godly growths but little chance to use it, and Thany, Sue, Sophia, Cecilia and Lalum getting 10 more (So Base 330) because... well because Harem Bonus.

All the growths are listed here

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?u0py83ju9pfj17l you need Open Office to read the document

[Lord Raven]

Those seem like rather arbitrary numbers, and don't even get me started at how growth spread matters more than growth total.

EDIT: Bartre doesn't have growths and everything seems way too offensive orientated. And, of course, base stats need altering too.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Onmi]

Those seem like rather arbitrary numbers, and don't even get me started at how growth spread matters more than growth total.

EDIT: Bartre doesn't have growths and everything seems way too offensive orientated. And, of course, base stats need altering too.

Bartre doesn't have growths because I was distilling his from his FE7 growths and didn't have the net at the time I made the chart (and forgot to go back to him) I will agree I probably made the growths too offensively orientated.

I agree I got a little too much focus on offense I'm doing a few revisions now (since I'm back up to that part) got to edit bases though, bump up some character join levels defintily

[weso12]

Well I was bored today so I made Growths rates for all the character in this game for balance I change quite a few people stats to make them more unique like Saul, Noah, and Treck, I hope this works

Case your wondering here are the growths totals I used for balance

Non Promoted Units = 275%
Promoted Unites = 225%
Roy, Wendy, Sophia, Merlinus, Lalum,and Elphin = 325 

The link is right here:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=6WVMXRZ0

Edited July 26, 2011 by weso12

[Lord Raven]

smh someone else misses the important points in this thread