Final Fantasy Tactics Efficiency Tier List

[Dark Sage]

So since Granjackal and I have been playing FFT efficiently (both of us sort of going for low turn counts, but him moreso while I go for a more LLG as well), I decided to sort the best classes in the game among the worst for efficiency. So some guidelines:

-Minimum JP grinding. We're assuming for example, that you are not using or unlocking classes like Ninja and Lancer until Chapter 2, Calculators until very late Chapter 3 and Mimes not until early Chapter 4. This also affects which abilities might be learned and which might not. Since we're assuming minimum JP and level grinding, this means that the difficulty of getting all of the Math Skill abilities is counted against it.

-Propositions ARE however allowed. Propositions is basically quicker JP grinding without level grinding. They're also limited in supply, so you can't just do them over and over.

-If the guidelines need improvement or some need to be added/gotten rid of, please tell me.

And now without further ado:

Top

Summoner

Wizard

Monk

Ninja

Squire (Ramza)

Time Mage

High Tier

Holy Swordsman

Geomancer

Oracle

Priest

Chemist

Upper Mid

Engineer

Holy Knight

Archer

Temple Knight

Low Mid

Red Chocobo

Chocobo

Lancer

Samurai

Knight

Low

Black Chocobo

Mediator

Divine Knight

Squire

Thief

Bottom

Dancer

Mime

Bard

Heaven Knight

Hell Knight

Dragonier

Soldier

Calculator

This list is most likely HIGHLY inaccurate, so please help.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Tyrant Sage

[Radiant Dragon]

Not sure about Priest > Chemist. They may have more MA and Holy, but Items require no charge and have 100% accuracy.

I don't think Calculator should be that low. It's not like you need to get every single ability for Math Skill to be useful.

Do you think we could have two lists, one with monsters and one without? Also, do you have any plans to add the unique playable classes like Holy Knight or Engineer?

[grandjackal]

Ok, who is this "we"? we might be doing runs at the same time, but I don't think we agreed to any collaboration of sorts. Just seems misleading.

Secondly, monsters should just...Not be included. 1. It makes the list unecessarily humongous, and 2. Monster capturing in an efficient run? Hilarious thought, but it's definitely not worth the effort. The only monsters that just automatically joins the team is Chocobo, so only the chocobos should be measured.

Thirdly, I'm going to make a safe bet and say that Knight is an awful class. There are no redeeming abilities it has, any heavy-armor class can basically do the same thing it does (not die) with abilities that are actually worth a damn, and the only redeeming factor it has (Knightswords) is eliminated by the fact that Orlandu and Agrias are going to take them. The only reason to ever go into that class is to get the prerequisites for future classes. I doubt that's high tier material.

I also wouldn't quite jump the gun with Wizards being in their own tier. Certainly they're powerful as hell and their abilities are worh the effort to get, but I get the feeling I'll get better stuff later. They're just an incredibly powerful stepping stone.

[Dark Sage]

Yeah, I was having doubts about putting monsters on the list. So I'll get rid of them.

In my experience, I've played with Wizards and they've been the single biggest contribution to my low turncounts. Basically by the end of Part 1, my wizard was at level 12 while the rest of my team were levels 5-8. That's how good they are.

For knights, they're your best tanks early on and your best damage dealers. They have bad move, but you can equip Battle Boots and Move +1 on them and they'll be pretty good. They also have robes and their magic isn't bad, so they can make passable backup mages if you need them for some odd reason. Part 4, they get Knightswords to use which is nice.

I wasn't sure whether or not to put the other special classes in because then I'd have to be dealing with the characters associated with them too, which might get ugly.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Sagekitty

[Rodykitty]

I don't see why monsters shouldn't be on the list. They're playable, controllable units. It's not like they're Merlinus.

[grandjackal]

Not sure about Priest > Chemist. They may have more MA and Holy, but Items require no charge and have 100% accuracy.

Well, this is sort of a complex thing to think over if you get into it. First off, Chemist contributions early onare quite huge, since one chemist essentially allows your whole team the basic necessities of potions and phoenix downs, so early on they allow you to be perfectly safe. Priests while being inferior to Wizards are still a good choice just to have so it can possibly teach the team Cure so you don't have to even waste money on potions since you just have a team that can network Cure heal. That, and Priest has actual magic as to allow better use of Wizard spells than Chemist, of whom only have guns really late in to retaliate with.

Still, it's a surprisingly close call when you give it thought.

I don't think Calculator should be that low. It's not like you need to get every single ability for Math Skill to be useful.

Have you actually ever tried to use a Calculator in efficient play?

1. Their stats are awful in every sense of the word.

2. No good weapon or armor choices.

3. You need to purchase 3 of their expensive-ass abilities so they have a basic semblence of actual function, and even then it's an incredibly situational function of which may only end up backfiring since it means abilities will hurt allies as well.

4. The damage they do with magic is pitiful, and this sucks considering that the entire time you have to use them you basically only have the choice of magic.

5. By the time you finally buy all of their shit to make them as powerful as they can possibly be, it most likely is stupid late in the game, and most likely will not make up for the turns they lost us with their horrible assness.

Calcs are right where they deserve to be.

Do you think we could have two lists, one with monsters and one without? Also, do you have any plans to add the unique playable classes like Holy Knight or Engineer?

Unique classes aren't up already?

In my experience, I've played with Wizards and they've been the single biggest contribution to my low turncounts. Basically by the end of Part 1, my wizard was at level 12 while the rest of my team were levels 5-8. That's how good they are.

I have to wonder if our turncounts are similar, cause those levels seem...High.

For knights, they're your best tanks early on

Surviving early on is hardly an issue when everyone on your team can easily have Items with Potions. Hell, you have 2 NPCs whom you can equip Potion on, they'll be more than happy to heal you. Hell, if I want survivability early on, I'd probably want more ranged attackers. You're not in much danger if you kill them before they reach you, and you got 2 NPCs being good enough distractions already.

and your best damage dealers.

Correction. Mages are the best damage dealers. Blow for blow, I'd also take Monk over them.

They have bad move, but you can equip Battle Boots and Move +1 on them and they'll be pretty good.

This movement can be copied by combat untis in general like the Monk. Also, having 6 Move (+1 Battle Boots, +1 from Squire ability) increases survivability as well, since it means you can outrun any melee unit if you're in danger and need to retreat.

They also have robes and their magic isn't bad, so they can make passable backup mages if you need them for some odd reason.

While I would find additional MP silly, I don't actually mind the idea of a Knight having some magic packing, simply because it means he can be a higmove tank who can do some slight AoE damage, being a distraction until the real cannons come in.

Part 4, they get Knightswords to use which is nice.

Their competition is Agrias and Orlandu. That's gonna be a hard argument.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Grandkitty

[Dark Sage]

Unique classes aren't up already?

I wasn't sure if it was a good idea, but I'll put them up right now.

I have to wonder if our turncounts are similar, cause those levels seem...High.

Well I admit that in later battles, I became less focused on efficiency, most notably during the Gologrand Execution Site and Lionel's Castle gate battles. For earlier, I think only Ramza made it to level 7 and that was only because I ran into an unusually large amount of random battles. Still, the wizard basically did all the work, which is why she ended up so high leveled.

[Radiant Dragon]

Well, this is sort of a complex thing to think over if you get into it. First off, Chemist contributions early onare quite huge, since one chemist essentially allows your whole team the basic necessities of potions and phoenix downs, so early on they allow you to be perfectly safe. Priests while being inferior to Wizards are still a good choice just to have so it can possibly teach the team Cure so you don't have to even waste money on potions since you just have a team that can network Cure heal. That, and Priest has actual magic as to allow better use of Wizard spells than Chemist, of whom only have guns really late in to retaliate with.

Still, it's a surprisingly close call when you give it thought.

Don't forget about the no-miss healing/revival of Items, although I suppose that White Magic can get pretty high if your team is zodiac compatible. It's tough to judge.

Have you actually ever tried to use a Calculator in efficient play?

I'll admit I haven't played FFT 'efficiently' yet, but I plan to now. Although I do want to know exactly what you were using to determine turncounts. How many turns a specific unit got? However, I still get the feeling that Math Skill can contribute more in the last parts of the game than Bards or Dancers ever will.

Also, as I mentioned in your topic, Sticks are a very good weapon (not that Calculators use them very well with their horrid stats).

EDIT: Is Soldier that low because of it's abilities/stats, or because Cloud joins at level 1?

Edited June 28, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Dark Sage]

Soldiers are low for both of your reasons and because Cloud needs a crappy weapon to use his crappy skills and he has crappy availability. I'm actually considering putting him below Calculators.

[Radiant Dragon]

Soldiers are low for both of your reasons and because Cloud needs a crappy weapon to use his crappy skills and he has crappy availability. I'm actually considering putting him below Calculators.

I'd say he deserves to be below them. Dragoner too possibly, but that might be because don't recall what Reis can do besides breaths and help Dragons (which isn't useful if we're not recruiting any).

Edited June 28, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[grandjackal]

I'll admit I haven't played FFT 'efficiently' yet, but I plan to now. Although I do want to know exactly what you were using to determine turncounts. How many turns a specific unit got? However, I still get the feeling that Math Skill can contribute more in the last parts of the game than Bards or Dancers ever will.

Pretty much. I tend to note who moves first so I can just base it off them, because unlike in Shining Force, FFT has a non-random ordering of turns, so that helps immensely. Early on it's really easy to keep track of since Delita and Algus move first almost always.

Also, as I mentioned in your topic, Sticks are a very good weapon (not that Calculators use them very well with their horrid stats).

Problem being that those that use sticks tend to have better things to do. Like be classes that don't suck.

[Radiant Dragon]

Problem being that those that use sticks tend to have better things to do. Like be classes that don't suck.

Since when did Oracles suck? They're even in High Tier here (although I'll admit it's the equivalent of Upper Mid).

[Dark Sage]

Oracles do have better things to do then use a poor man's version of a spear. It's to cast Petrify, Life Drain, Paralyze, etc.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Sagekitty

[Radiant Dragon]

Oracles do have better things to do then use a poor man's version of a spear. It's to cast Petrify, Life Drain, Paralyze, etc.

While I agree with this, attacking does have it's advantages.

[Anouleth]

Pretty much. I tend to note who moves first so I can just base it off them, because unlike in Shining Force, FFT has a non-random ordering of turns, so that helps immensely. Early on it's really easy to keep track of since Delita and Algus move first almost always.

I'm not familiar with FFT, but surely linking turncount to the number of turns a player character takes is problematic because their speed will vary? Wouldn't this generate a perverse incentive to try and avoid taking lots of turns in order to keep your "turncount" low (for example, if you had two teams, and one of them was twice as fast but took twice as many turns to beat the chapter, they would be considered much worse).

[eclipse]

I'm not familiar with FFT, but surely linking turncount to the number of turns a player character takes is problematic because their speed will vary? Wouldn't this generate a perverse incentive to try and avoid taking lots of turns in order to keep your "turncount" low (for example, if you had two teams, and one of them was twice as fast but took twice as many turns to beat the chapter, they would be considered much worse).

If that were the case, Haste would suck. Is this based off of your turns, your enemies turns, or at least one round of everyone?

[grandjackal]

I'm not familiar with FFT, but surely linking turncount to the number of turns a player character takes is problematic because their speed will vary? Wouldn't this generate a perverse incentive to try and avoid taking lots of turns in order to keep your "turncount" low (for example, if you had two teams, and one of them was twice as fast but took twice as many turns to beat the chapter, they would be considered much worse).

All that says is that the speed stat alone does not win you the game. And no, it wouldn't, because A. No such situation would ever occur, and B. Your team should not be so braindead that this situation just happens anyways.

If that were the case, Haste would suck. Is this based off of your turns, your enemies turns, or at least one round of everyone?

One round for everyone, of course. The way one measures it is that in the example of Delita always going first is that every time Delita has his turn, it's the start of a whole turn. The exception is when he's Hasted, which case it would be every other turn.

[Dark Sage]

Hmmmm....I wonder if I have the Holy Knight too low and the Engineer too high.

Holy Knight does have crap for move and a terrible PA multiplier, but their abilities are pretty sweet and all.

With Engineers, I guess the justificiation is that Aim Arm and Aim Leg combined with guns is smexy, but I'm not sure if it deserves to be in Upper Mid tier.

[Anouleth]

All that says is that the speed stat alone does not win you the game.

Actually, the speed stat doesn't do anything. It just lets you take more turns, which doesn't give any advantage relative to this criteria.

And no, it wouldn't, because A. No such situation would ever occur, and B. Your team should not be so braindead that this situation just happens anyways.

That's the point of a hypothetical example. I haven't played this game and I don't know if such a team is possible, but it illustrates how the tier list prioritises other stats at the cost of speed. Even if the hypothetical team could kill every enemy in every chapter before they even got a chance to move, they would be penalised for taking many turns.

One round for everyone, of course. The way one measures it is that in the example of Delita always going first is that every time Delita has his turn, it's the start of a whole turn. The exception is when he's Hasted, which case it would be every other turn.

Well, if Slow exists, you can cast Slow on him and have effectively twice as many turns. Or cast Stop or Sleep, or kill him and have infinite turns (I don't know if there's a game over or whatever if he dies). Certainly, you'd never use Quicken on him, or give him stuff to boost speed.

[grandjackal]

Anouleth, I...Think you don't get it. I'm going to tell you how the game IS, so enough with your hypothetical examples.

Every FULL turn, each unit on both sides get a turn. They cannot act more than once through a whole turn unless Hasted or Quickened. If they are, they don't count towards more turns because they're simply acting twice in the same full turn. If one is slowed, it means you only get an action every other full turn.

So if you seriously think I could do something absurd like cast Stop on a single unit and have that be the basis of the claim "Oh hey, I beat this map in ONE TURN! :D", you are clearly insane. Seriously, I would think it would be common sense to think that one unit doesn't actually hold the power of the turncount in his speed stat, nor that he'd be unique in that sense...I'm merely using Delita as a measuring stick in my example.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Grandkitty

[Anouleth]

Anouleth, I...Think you don't get it. I'm going to tell you how the game IS, so enough with your hypothetical examples.

Every FULL turn, each unit on both sides get a turn. They cannot act more than once through a whole turn unless Hasted or Quickened. If they are, they don't count towards more turns because they're simply acting twice in the same full turn. If one is slowed, it means you only get an action every other full turn.

No, that's not how it works.

Statistic Speed determines how fast the CT gauge to be fulfilled. For instance, when there are two battle units in the field, unit A has the Speed of 10 and B's is 5, unit A requires 100 ÷ 10 ＝ 10 units of timespan to fulfill the CT gauge, while B spends 20 units, so A will act earlier than B and able to act twice between B's active turns.

From the Final Fantasy Wiki

So it is possible to take two turns in the amount of time it takes another unit to take one turn if you have twice as much speed. You don't "have" to be Hasted or Quickened. In that case, how do you define a full turn? The amount of time it takes for every character to move at least once? Again, that's open to abuse because you could deploy an exceptionally slow character in order to make "full turns" last longer.

So if you seriously think I could do something absurd like cast Stop on a single unit and have that be the basis of the claim "Oh hey, I beat this map in ONE TURN! :D", you are clearly insane.

I don't know, according to the criteria you described, that is the best way to play the game.

Seriously, I would think it would be common sense to think that one unit doesn't actually hold the power of the turncount in his speed stat, nor that he'd be unique in that sense...I'm merely using Delita as a measuring stick in my example.

Then choose an example that doesn't leave the possibility of abuse. I thought it would be common sense too, but I guess you proved me wrong.

[grandjackal]

No, that's not how it works.

From the Final Fantasy Wiki

Early on, this will not make a lick of difference from how I described it.

So it is possible to take two turns in the amount of time it takes another unit to take one turn if you have twice as much speed. You don't "have" to be Hasted or Quickened. In that case, how do you define a full turn? The amount of time it takes for every character to move at least once? Again, that's open to abuse because you could deploy an exceptionally slow character in order to make "full turns" last longer.

Very well then, it's merely something that can only be applied early on.

I don't know, according to the criteria you described, that is the best way to play the game.

Is there a particular reason you're being obscenely obtuse?

Then choose an example that doesn't leave the possibility of abuse. I thought it would be common sense too, but I guess you proved me wrong.

Delita IS the example. He as a squire, despite enemy levels or class or speed, always acts first, and always moves after everyone in the rotation has had their turn as if he were to act first on the second turn. Thus why I use the term "measuring stick" for him, rather than "The Wizard That Manipulates the Turn Count".

[Aquilae]

Grandjackal, I think you misunderstand the CT system. No offense, but you might want to boot up the tutorial, since there's a great explanation for that in the section Battle -> Charge Time Battle.

I'll try my best to explain for those who don't play FFT.

Firstly, FFT works with the CT system, which to my knowledge is unique and is very different from other ways of doing it (TO, FFTA, etc.)

In this example here, Orlandu has 14 + 7 Speed (he's hasted, so he gains a 1.5x boost), and Paul has 7 speed. Every clocktick, the CT bar increases by 21 for Orlandu, and 7 for Paul. So, when the bar hits 100, the unit gets a turn. You can see this in the example, after 5 CTs, Orlandu gets a turn, while after 5 CTs Paul is still stuck at 35 CT.

If you move and act, you lose 100 CT after the end of the turn. If you only Move / Act, you lose 80, and if you don't do anything, you lose 60. This allows you to get your turn faster, and does make a significant difference. After that, the cycle repeats.

Spells are also dictated by the same system, each spell has a CTR value assigned to it. Holy has 6 CTR, which means it will resolve 6 CTs after the turn. You can see when spells will resolve relative to the units on the map by just pressing right on the d-pad at the selection screen.

In the case of a tie, the units act according to their order in the map Unit List:

(the units are actually loaded in the order in which the map loads them, but the Unit List / AT List is handy for determining what order they go in. Enemies get priority over player units most of the time.)

And their turns come up in the AT list, which is handy for checking stuff.

There is no such thing as a "turn", unless you want to assign an arbitrary amount of clockticks to it. Even then, it is hard and overly cumbersome to count. You can't really count CTs, and you can't see the number of CTs which have passed in a battle either.

Now, the damage of an ability is determined by its formula. Fist damage is ~(PA^2 * Br/100), meaning that it sucks at low levels but does a shitload at higher levels. Monsters' damage also grow exponentially, as they use the same formula for their physical attacks, and their PA and MA grow faster. What level the units are at will affect how well they perform in battle.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Aquilae

[grandjackal]

Huh...Well ok. Just seems that early on, there is never such an extreme circumstance where one unit is insanely faster than the other as to misjudge it. It just seems natural for things to be rather orderly early on, keeping track of turns isn't actually that hard. Keeping track of turns later on seems hectic, however.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Grandkitty

[Aquilae]

As I said earlier, I don't get where you get this idea of turns from. There aren't any turns in the game that group individual actions together, like in Fire Emblem.