eclipse Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 If nobody does anything with any logic or foresight, it would also be a terrible story. There's a difference between Mary Sue godmode predictability and competence with human error. And there's a bigger difference between these and absolute inexplicable incompetence. People are unpredictable, but that isn't an excuse for utter incompetence on the part of every single villain. . . .and then there are stupid mistakes based on arrogance, which seems to have fallen out of the equation. I haven't seen too many main villains who constantly keep their egos in check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) Telling people, such as the Black Fang, who work for the king that you are loyal to the son that he wants to kill may not be the best of ideas. Good catch. That explains it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, in this scene, Matthew and Hector are in a room, and after Matthew leaves Hector discovers the Black Fang member, who was also in the room. Supposedly, Matthew never leaves, but is hidden, and the assassin in the room was also hidden. If Matthew's goal was to draw the Black Fang out, (He says that "those assassins wouldn't show themselves until you were alone") telling Hector would alert the Black Fang as well, and would probably keep them from showing themselves. Edit for grammarz. Matthew: I've known you were here for some time. I also knew you were after Lord Hector, not me. You're all professional assassins. You wait for your chance, and you don't miss it. You were waiting for me to leave Lord Hector alone. That's when you were planning to attack, right? It really doesn't sound like he just noticed that soldier in the room right when he started to leave, but rather that he had noticed before that and had even managed to somehow find out what they were planning. Speaking of that soldier... Hector: Huh? ......Come out. I know you're there. Black Fang: ... Hector: Who are you? Black Fang: ... Hector: Too dumb to speak? Makes no difference to me. Move out of my way, or I'll run you through! Worst assassin ever. Also not exactly a shining moment for Hector's morality. . . .and then there are stupid mistakes based on arrogance, which seems to have fallen out of the equation. I haven't seen too many main villains who constantly keep their egos in check. Within reasonable limits to still allow for a good story, sure. FE7 goes pretty far past those bounds. Edited July 31, 2011 by Othin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Within reasonable limits to still allow for a good story, sure. FE7 goes pretty far past those bounds. Play a game where you have power over other people, not video game characters. You'll find that it's not as far out of the bounds of imagination as you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 What is weird about claiming Kishuna is Renault's friend is how Renault accuses Nergal of turning his friend into a soulless puppet, while Kishuna is Nergal's first morph to actually have emotions. I mean, Denning is more likely to be Renault's friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Play a game where you have power over other people, not video game characters. You'll find that it's not as far out of the bounds of imagination as you think. It's not just about realism. Horribly ineffective villains tend to not make for a good serious story, plausible or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 It's not just about realism. Horribly ineffective villains tend to not make for a good serious story, plausible or not. I'd rather have real over whatever you think a good story is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I'd rather have real over whatever you think a good story is. Interesting. Compelling. Dramatic. There's a reason fiction and fantasy get written: they have potential for stories that might not be able to happen in real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 I'd rather have real over whatever you think a good story is. This game isn't realistic whatsoever. Even ignoring the fantasy setting. A collection of happy-go-lucky kids on a Napoleonic tour de force fighting Mr. Kill-You-Later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Interesting. Compelling. Dramatic. There's a reason fiction and fantasy get written: they have potential for stories that might not be able to happen in real life. And I prefer seeing how a work can be interesting, compelling, and dramatic despite the flaws of its characters. If you'd like to see perfection in action, I'd be more than happy to guide you to some of the works in the Creative section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 And I prefer seeing how a work can be interesting, compelling, and dramatic despite the flaws of its characters. If you'd like to see perfection in action, I'd be more than happy to guide you to some of the works in the Creative section. Oh I love this. FE7 is neither interesting nor compelling sans for perhaps the Bern royal family. This was what I was saying in my original critique; and yet nearly every response to this topic has been people posting inane and purely hypothetical explanations for the plot holes which I explained in order to bring forth the larger point. There is no progress in Fire Emblem 7. None whatsoever. The characters do not progress over time. At the end of the game nothing is different than how it was at the beginning of the game. Nothing has HAPPENED. Nergal spawned out of thin air to gain power. This caused some fights, some people died. Then Nergal was defeated and we were left off right where we began. The story started with everything at status quo and ended with everything at status quo. Everything about this story--from its place as an utterly pointless prequel to a game well-enclosed and without loose ends, from the chapter maps filled with enemies who appear from nowhere simply seeking to kill you, from the main characters themselves--nothing profound has happened over the course of this game. We have learned nothing new; the characters themselves have learned nothing new. If you want to take this to a loftier level, I'll take it there. For as far as I'm concerned, Fire Emblem 7 has no story whatsoever, merely a loosely connected string of battles revolving around a similar set of characters. A story needs progression. You can have a villain, a hero, and a conflict but without progression you still have no story; merely a snapshot. A hideously prolonged snapshot of nauseating disinterest. So let's ignore every single fucking plot hole in the entire game. This game, from a technical standpoint, is perfect. Let's just assume that. This game however still lacks one of the most basic tenants of plot; and that is motion. Oh, but you'll say: "The game starts with you stopping and rebellion and ends with you saving the world," and if that's what you think you've missed the point entirely. There is more to motion than a mere change of the banner waved by the enemies you fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Oh I love this. FE7 is neither interesting nor compelling sans for perhaps the Bern royal family. This was what I was saying in my original critique; and yet nearly every response to this topic has been people posting inane and purely hypothetical explanations for the plot holes which I explained in order to bring forth the larger point. There is no progress in Fire Emblem 7. None whatsoever. The characters do not progress over time. At the end of the game nothing is different than how it was at the beginning of the game. Nothing has HAPPENED. Nergal spawned out of thin air to gain power. This caused some fights, some people died. Then Nergal was defeated and we were left off right where we began. The story started with everything at status quo and ended with everything at status quo. Everything about this story--from its place as an utterly pointless prequel to a game well-enclosed and without loose ends, from the chapter maps filled with enemies who appear from nowhere simply seeking to kill you, from the main characters themselves--nothing profound has happened over the course of this game. We have learned nothing new; the characters themselves have learned nothing new. If you want to take this to a loftier level, I'll take it there. For as far as I'm concerned, Fire Emblem 7 has no story whatsoever, merely a loosely connected string of battles revolving around a similar set of characters. A story needs progression. You can have a villain, a hero, and a conflict but without progression you still have no story; merely a snapshot. A hideously prolonged snapshot of nauseating disinterest. So let's ignore every single fucking plot hole in the entire game. This game, from a technical standpoint, is perfect. Let's just assume that. This game however still lacks one of the most basic tenants of plot; and that is motion. Oh, but you'll say: "The game starts with you stopping and rebellion and ends with you saving the world," and if that's what you think you've missed the point entirely. There is more to motion than a mere change of the banner waved by the enemies you fight. Here. Use these three words to avert any potential disasters that will probably befall you, should you ever do this to another forum: "In My Opinion" I'm perfectly happy with the story as-is, and it fits the gameplay nicely. Yell and scream all you want, this isn't gonna change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 The analysis of literature has been, since its inception, the arguing of opinions. If you're unwilling to play ball then I'll rest my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 The analysis of literature has been, since its inception, the arguing of opinions. If you're unwilling to play ball then I'll rest my case. FIRE EMBLEM IS NOT A LITERARY WORK. It's a game, first and foremost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 FIRE EMBLEM IS NOT A LITERARY WORK. It's a game, first and foremost. It has a story; it can be analyzed. Just because something is a game doesn't mean it can't be "literary". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Let's look at it this way: If you hate the game's story so fucking much, then why do you continue to play it even now? All your comments point towards the fact that you think this game is shit because of plot holes, and logically speaking, if you think something is shit then don't do anything with it. So. Fucking. Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 It has a story; it can be analyzed. Just because something is a game doesn't mean it can't be "literary". This would be understandable if you were doing this to a piece of literary work that has been around for many, many years. . .but for a game story? I'd be more inclined to believe you if you'd analyze the Detectives in Togas series, because that was meant to be a story, not a game. You wouldn't happen to be guilty of this, would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 I'm analyzing a story. The age of the story doesn't matter. Is an analysis of Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead (30 years old) less understandable than an analysis of Hamlet (400 years old)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I'm analyzing a story. The age of the story doesn't matter. Is an analysis of Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead (30 years old) less understandable than an analysis of Hamlet (400 years old)? The age AND type of story matters. Video game stories aren't meant to be deep literary works, and as such, analyzing them in such a manner makes you look rather silly. Something that's far older and a classic will have seen more analysis than a modern classic, simply by virtue of its age. The odds of getting someone competent to analyze such a work is higher, due to a larger sample size. I still await your analysis of Detectives in Togas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 The age AND type of story matters. Video game stories aren't meant to be deep literary works, and as such, analyzing them in such a manner makes you look rather silly. Something that's far older and a classic will have seen more analysis than a modern classic, simply by virtue of its age. The odds of getting someone competent to analyze such a work is higher, due to a larger sample size. I still await your analysis of Detectives in Togas. Butbutbut I thought you just were talking about how much you liked FE7's story because it was so dramatic and compelling. If it's missing one of the key tenants of drama, however, then how can it be either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janissary Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Trolls be trolling at page 18. Wow. Dude, every story has plots holes. EVERY SINGLE ONE! So why don't you go pick one of the other FEs? Probably because that wouldn't get you so much attention. Good day. I said Good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 Trolls be trolling at page 18. Wow. Dude, every story has plots holes. EVERY SINGLE ONE! So why don't you go pick one of the other FEs? Probably because that wouldn't get you so much attention. Good day. I said Good day. Halfway through my FESS analysis as we speak :V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Butbutbut I thought you just were talking about how much you liked FE7's story because it was so dramatic and compelling. If it's missing one of the key tenants of drama, however, then how can it be either? It's dramatic and compelling enough FOR ME. Since you seem to have much higher standards than me, I found another story that should suit your exquisite tastes: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=12820 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Go analyze every single video game in fucking existence, then. In almost any other game you'd find plot holes, so why don't you go satisfy your ego and rate every single one of them too? Also, I look forward to the Lyon fapping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 Go analyze every single video game in fucking existence, then. In almost any other game you'd find plot holes, so why don't you go satisfy your ego and rate every single one of them too? Also, I look forward to the Lyon fapping. Did you not understand the part where I said that FE7's fundamental problem was not about plot holes? ...And Lyon's the most intricate and well-developed character in the entire series, so yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Did you not understand the part where I said that FE7's fundamental problem was not about plot holes? ...And Lyon's the most intricate and well-developed character in the entire series, so yeah. It doesn't move enough for you. Got it. FE7 moved me just fine. Then again, I'm the same chick that shamelessly cries at the end of every Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, so YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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