Multiple tier list idea

[Lord Raven]

I'm going to try this out. Copying the following from Red Fox:

Tier List FAQ by Vykan12. Please read and understand before posting.

This topic was linked on Encyclopedia Dramatica. Awesome or awesome?

T = PoR transfer, followed by the stats assumed to have capped. Currently undergoing discussion as to which stats are viable. (PoR stat boosters are occasionally assumed)

N = No transfer, or "Normal."

[spoiler=Transfer notes]-An N/T means the normal and transfer version of that character are right next to each other with the (T) version on top but kept in the same spot to avoid the redundancy of listing the character twice. Where applicable, the transfer stats are still listed for reference due to the possibility of being argued up.

-Transfer units are assumed in a void. That is, if someone wants to debate Ike (T)'s position, it is assumed he is the only transferred unit on the team. This is to prevent arguments about which units might have been transferred on a team since you can't transfer everyone in one run and allows us to see the general impact a transferred unit has on the game as accurately as possible. However, this does not mean that one unit is allowed all of PoR's stat boosters. Those are already included in the current transfer setup.

-The above does, of course, still apply when comparing two (T) units to each other. If the discussion is Mia (T) vs Titania (T), the Titania on Mia (T)'s theoretical team is normal and the Mia on Titania (T)'s theoretical team is also normal.

-No units are assumed priority for a transfer. Rolf is just as likely to be transferred as Titania.

Also read:

[spoiler=Suggestions for search convenience (thanks to Sirius)]1. Refer to the transfer characters as "Name(T)" as opposed to "Name (T)" as you've been doing, in other words, just ditch that space. Why? Because you can't search the latter with the search function.

2. Refer to 3 letter characters as "NameXX". IkeXX for example. Same for the transfers, Ike transfer should be "IkeXX(T)" since "Ike(T)" can't be found with the search function.

But this one has a twist. Instead of the iffyness of comparing two units in separate playtimes, we end up comparing units within the same playtimes which is... more useful. I've split it up into the following:

(Part 1, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13), one for Part 2 (except 2-3), one for the CRKs (2-3, 3-9), one for Greil Mercs (3-P to 3-5, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, 3-E), one for Part 4 performances (4-E to 4-5), and the one for the endgame.

Therefore, we lead to the following names for each tier list:

Dawn Brigade (Covers Part 1, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13)

Part 2 tier list (2-P, 2-1, 2-2, 2-E)

CRKs (2-3, 3-9)

Greil Mercenaries (3-P to 3-5, 3-7 to 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, 3-E)

Part 4 (4-P to 4-5) (contemplating switching this to 4-P/4-3, 4-1/4-4, 4-2/4-5)

Endgame (4-E-1 to 4-E-5)

Because comparing Lehran to Lethe is fucking weird.

Finally, if I don't specify transfers I imply it doesn't matter in that particular character's tiering.

[spoiler=Dawn Brigade]Top

Sothe

Volug

Nolan

Jill (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def)

High

Jill

Zihark

Nailah

Black Knight

Muarim

Tauroneo

Mid

Micaiah

Edward

Tormod

Rafiel

Vika

Laura

Low

Leonardo

Ilyana

Aran

Bottom

Fiona

Meg

[spoiler=Part 2]Top

Leanne

High

Nephenee (T)

Brom

Nephenee

Lucia

Nealuchi

Lethe

Mordecai

Haar

Elincia

Heather

Mid

Marcia

Bottom

Calill

I'm not sure if I should tier the CRKs performance in 2-E on here; they are available, technically speaking, but should we only assume the 1-turn clear?

[spoiler=CRKs]

In order of quality:

Kieran (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def)

Geoffrey

Kieran

Makalov (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def)

Marcia

Danved

Makalov

Calill/Astrid

There's too few characters for proper tiers, but these are actually somewhat important as far as rating someone like Geoffrey goes. I repeat that these apply to 2-3 and 3-9 only.

[spoiler=Greil Mercenaries]Top

Haar

Titania

Ike

High

Mia (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Reyson

Oscar (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Mia

Shinon

Gatrie (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def)

Boyd (T - HP, Str, Skl, Spd)

Gatrie

Nephenee (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Upper Mid

Oscar

Ulki (T - Str)

Janaff

Ulki

Mordecai

Ranulf

Heather

Middle

Jill (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def)

Zihark (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Nephenee

Leanne

Tanith (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Marcia (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Boyd

Rhys

Mist

Lower Mid

Soren (T - Mag, Skl, Spd, Res)

Sigrun

Tanith

Jill

Marcia

Rolf (T - Str, Spd)

Soren

Rolf

Low

Kyza

Brom

Zihark

Kieran (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Makalov (T - Str, Spd, Def)

Bottom

Ilyana

Lethe

Makalov

Astrid (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Lyre

Astrid

[spoiler=Part 4, Micaiah's Group]Top

Naesala

Leanne

Jill

Haar

High

Skrimir

Nealuchi

Janaff

Ulki

Sigrun

Tanith

Micaiah

Volug

Marcia

Tanith

Mid

Sothe

Nolan

Zihark

Nephenee

Boyd

Shinon

Mia

Heather

Sanaki

Calill

Low

Lethe

Mordecai

Kieran

Makalov (T)

Danved

Rolf

Oscar

Rhys

Kyza

Lyre

Stefan

Bottom

Makalov

Astrid

Stefan

Edward

Ilyana

Aran

Leonardo

Brom

Meg

Fiona

Gatrie

Laura

[spoiler=Part 4, Ike's Group]Top

Ike

Nailah

Rafiel

High

Titania

Nolan

Jill

Zihark

Haar

Boyd

Oscar

Shinon

Gatrie

Mia

Janaff

Ulki

Mid

Volug

Nealuchi

Nephenee

Heather

Mordecai

Kieran

Makalov (T)

Tanith

Muarim

Soren

Mist

Low

Marcia

Brom

Lethe

Astrid

Makalov

Danved

Calill

Rolf

Rhys

Vika

Bottom

Tormod

Edward

Leonardo

Laura

Ilyana

Aran

Meg

Fiona

Kyza

Lyre

Oliver

[spoiler=Part 4, Tibarn's Group]Top

Tibarn

Elincia

Reyson

High

Nolan

Jill

Zihark

Boyd

Oscar

Shinon

Gatrie

Mia

Janaff

Ulki

Haar

Mid

Volug

Marcia

Nealuchi

Nephenee

Kieran

Makalov (T)

Calill

Tanith

Ranulf

Volke

Low

Tauroneo

Brom

Heather

Lethe

Mordecai

Makalov

Astrid

Danved

Geoffrey

Bastian

Bottom

Pelleas

Lucia

Edward

Leonardo

Laura

Ilyana

Aran

Meg

Fiona

Rolf

Rhys

Kyza

Lyre

And no, it's not completed from there. I was working on this for an hour, it still really sucks and I'd love to make it better (I'm not all that good a debater, I'll generally listen so long as the proof is given and I will play devil's advocate if it is not). Any degree of suggestions beyond "this is a fucking stupid idea, why did you do this" are fine, both in organizing tiers and seeing the way things work. A gameplan as to how to tier Part 4 possibly having to split that up into 3 routes -- this is what I'm leaning towards, personally) would be nice, and I can come up with a very barebones 4-E tier list after we figure out Part 4.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Mercenary Raven

[Florete]

First things first; I suggest scrapping the part 2 tier list. Part 2 is just as weird as comparing the whole game. And if you do keep it, there's no way Haar is at the top while Elincia is in Mid when all he really has is a better chance at being able to kill Ludveck in one round. Haar wouldn't even be at the Top, Leanne probably would for her 2-2 and 2-E performance. But again, I'd sooner suggest it be scrapped because you still have to compare how necessary Nephenee is in 2-1 with how much we actually need Haar to 1 turn 2-E for us.

Will look more closely at other stuff later.

[Lilmik11]

First things first; I suggest scrapping the part 2 tier list. Part 2 is just as weird as comparing the whole game. And if you do keep it, there's no way Haar is at the top while Elincia is in Mid when all he really has is a better chance at being able to kill Ludveck in one round. Haar wouldn't even be at the Top, Leanne probably would for her 2-2 and 2-E performance. But again, I'd sooner suggest it be scrapped because you still have to compare how necessary Nephenee is in 2-1 with how much we actually need Haar to 1 turn 2-E for us.

Will look more closely at other stuff later.

Why?While I agree with Leanne at the top, I don't see why it's a bad idea. I also suggest raising Elincia: She can easily solo 2-P and 1 turn 2-E. And why is Nephenee so high? IMO, Elincia/Haar>Nephenee. What's so special about Nephenee? 2-1 she's only good at wrath-KOing the boss, 2-2 she's outclassed by Lucia she's a bit frail, and she'll still fail to double because of her bad strenght.2-E she's useless when Haar and Elincia 1-turn it.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Lilmik11

[Lord Raven]

I'm going to play around with Part 2's a little bit (I'd actually think we scrap 2-P if anything, just because of the weirdness 2-P adds). That is a valid suggestion, though, and I grouped the invaluable units (Neph, Elincia, Haar) at top (Haar > Elincia but Haar and Neph are in no particular order). This also leaves Marcia has only existing to like... get a transfer chain to Leanne (then Haar) for a Speedwing assuming you didn't send it to the convoy in 2-3.

I'm still keeping 2-P as a factor in the Part 2 tier list but I'm curious as to what people think about 2-P. 2-P barely deserves its own tier list because it's a defend map and there's no way to low turn it at all.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

I stopped reading after I saw Meg a whole tier below Fiona. Hell, she shouldn't even be below Fiona in the first place. I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this.

Also, Part 4 and Endgame don't need to be separate, unless you're just trying to make Oliver or whoever look better.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Lord Raven]

Fiona can rescue Micaiah for a 5-turn of 1-7 iirc. Meg can't come close to that.

I'd appreciate it if no one was condescending in this thread, considering what you said is on par with "this is a fucking stupid idea" -- the kind of suggestion I do not want to hear about this list.

How the fuck am I trying to make Oliver look better? He's pretty much going above like half the cast in bottom tier. (Clearly you didn't stop reading there either).

Part 4 and endgame are weird enough to be separate simply because of the fact that there's a steady stream of units for each portion of part 4 and a steady stream of units for the endgame itself. I'm basically looking towards judging portions of "steady streams of units" if that makes sense.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Lilmik11]

I stopped reading after I saw Meg a whole tier below Fiona. Hell, she shouldn't even be below Fiona in the first place. I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this.

Also, Part 4 and Endgame don't need to be separate, unless you're just trying to make Oliver or whoever look better.

Why doesn't she? Meg is a burden at best if you don't baby her. Fiona doesn't need babying to rescue Micaiah so she can seize in 1-7, and trade items around in 3-6. In 3-13 she can rescue allies and drop them to plug holes.Meg can't do that.

[Lord Raven]

Don't forget about tossing Javelins to kill laguz gauges and being able to actually get the fuck out of there in time. She *may* even go above Leonardo because of that, depending on the value of Leonardo's chip early on.

And why is Nephenee so high? IMO, Elincia/Haar>Nephenee. What's so special about Nephenee? 2-1 she's only good at wrath-KOing the boss, 2-2 she's outclassed by Lucia she's a bit frail, and she'll still fail to double because of her bad strenght.2-E she's useless when Haar and Elincia 1-turn it.

I... actually agree. I'm not sure her position relative to Lucia, personally, but depending on the sheer amount of weirdness with arguing Part 2 I may just scrap Part 2 altogether.

I guess Neph's wrathcritting the boss isn't as valuable as Lucia's dealing with 2-2, so I'll place her below Lucia.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Lilmik11]

Don't forget about tossing Javelins to kill laguz gauges and being able to actually get the fuck out of there in time. She *may* even go above Leonardo because of that, depending on the value of Leonardo's chip early on.

I disagree. Leo and Eddie can combine for a kill in both 1-1 and 1-2. Leo can still continue chipping later on, and in part 3 it's even better with his prf bow, that gives 6 speed if I remember well. Fiona is NEVER going into combat.

[Florete]

I guess Neph's wrathcritting the boss isn't as valuable as Lucia's dealing with 2-2, so I'll place her below Lucia.

I can do both without either, but Neph Wrath-critting Yeardley, along with her help in completing 2-2 as it is, will probably end up more useful than Lucia's single-chapter usefulness.

and she'll still fail to double because of her bad strenght

Give her Marcia's Steel Lance via Nealuchi/Leanne.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[RNG Princess]

I think this is nice but imo Nealuchi > Lethe because he's got 1 more chapter than her and he's a 3rd option for rescue/dropping Heather to get the dracoshield.

BTW is it possible to 1 or 2 turn 2-E with BEXP Nealuchi?

[Lord Raven]

Leonardo doesn't have much chip once we get past 1-3 though, deployed or not. That actually does put a point in his favor against someone like Edward, though. But you are right, I'm just wondering if his chip is worth that much more than saving a bunch of turns in 1-7 by carrying Micaiah in that strategy.

As for Lughnasadh, I can't imagine him doing much with that bow considering he'll at best have gained 1 or 2 level ups throughout Part 1.

I've made the Nephenee > Lucia changes actually, cause the Steel Lance idea escaped me. I also changed Nealuchi to > Lethe and I moved Marcia-T back to the bottom of High... The Nealuchi being < Lethe I think was a result of the fact that I changed my mind about 2-P midway through looking at the list.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[PKL]

I stopped reading when i saw edward in the same category as scrubs like leonardo...really?

[Lord Raven]

Then argue it because I only put that list together in like 10 minutes not taking much into account.

Not that Edward's very useful past the point Leonardo is in HM anyway.

[aku chi]

I think this is a good idea. I've got a lot of issues with the various tier lists though. Allow me to start with my proposed tier list for the Dawn Brigade:

Top

Sothe

Volug

Nolan

Jill (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def)

High

Black Knight

Micaiah

Zihark (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Jill

Tauroneo

Mid

Muarim

Nailah

Laura

Rafiel

Edward

Tormod

Aran

Low

Vika

Leonardo

Ilyana

Bottom

Fiona

Meg

The only part of the list I have no problems with is Top.

Moving down, let's consider the god units first. The Black Knight is probably soloing 1-9, is one of three god units in 1-E (but the only one with 1-2 range), and joins part-way through 3-6 as the only god unit (in a very tough chapter). Tauroneo is a the sole god unit in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 where he is very helpful. He also has some value in 3-12 and 3-13 as a mortal, but still competent, unit. Muarim is the sole god unit in 1-7 (and starts with a full guage, and so probably doesn't need to use Olivi Grass), a help in 1-8 (dominates his part of the map with some Olivi Grass), and one of three potential god units in 1-E (but needs to be transformed unlike Nailah). Nailah is just slightly better than Muarim in 1-8 and 1-E because she doesn't need to use any grass, but this isn't enough, in my opinion, to outweigh Muarim's 1-7.

In between the Black Knight and Tauroneo, I saw fit to place Micaiah, Zihark, and Jill. Micaiah has the most availability and is a meaningful contributor throughout via Thani-bombing and healing. Zihark has almost as much availability as Volug and actually has better combat throughout Part 1 (minus the move). Zihark is can also be a big help in 3-12 and a smaller help in 3-6 and 3-13. He doesn't need any resources to contribute, unlike our friend Jill. And while Jill can end up contributing more than Zihark, it is only with a host of valuable resources that she must be penalized for taking.

Below Nailah are a couple utility units. Rafiel, I saw as less valuable than god units. He need not even exist in 1-8, because Nailah can solo that section of the map by herself, but he can be very helpful in 1-E - if we dedicate some units to ferrying him. Laura, I deem, is more valuable overall as a staff user in almost all of the DB chapters.

Below them I place the other two LEA members and the two middling tier 1 DBers. Edward, I think, is most valuable for his contributions early in part 1 (especially in 1-P). Training Edward won't pay off in Part 1, but can be potentially helpful in part 3. Tormod is quite helpful in 1-7 and 1-8, possibly the best non-god unit. Aran, like Edward, can be trained in Part 1 to help out in Part 3. When compared with Edward, Aran's probably a little more valuable in Part 3 when trained, but he lacks most of Edward's early-game utility. Vika might have some contributions in 1-7 and 1-E and is a big help in 1-8.

Two pot-shotters follow Vika. While Ilyana is the superior pot-shotter in their shared chapters, I give Leonardo the nod due to his greater availability.

Fiona and Meg are rightfully together in bottom tier. They're likely to just chip and perform utility roles in their free-deployment chapters. Meg has better chip and more free deployment chapters, but Fiona has better utility thanks to superior mov and canto.

Edited August 6, 2011 by aku chi

[Lilmik11]

Leonardo doesn't have much chip once we get past 1-3 though, deployed or not. That actually does put a point in his favor against someone like Edward, though. But you are right, I'm just wondering if his chip is worth that much more than saving a bunch of turns in 1-7 by carrying Micaiah in that strategy.

As for Lughnasadh, I can't imagine him doing much with that bow considering he'll at best have gained 1 or 2 level ups throughout Part 1.

I've made the Nephenee > Lucia changes actually, cause the Steel Lance idea escaped me. I also changed Nealuchi to > Lethe and I moved Marcia-T back to the bottom of High... The Nealuchi being < Lethe I think was a result of the fact that I changed my mind about 2-P midway through looking at the list.

Leo>Eddie? Now way. Eddie can solo 1-P and help with 1-1 with wrath crit. If you give him the same ressources as Jill and Nolan, he can perform pretty well later on.But yeah, I stand by that Leo>Fiona

[Lilmik11]

I think this is a good idea. I've got a lot of issues with the various tier lists though. Allow me to start with my proposed tier list for the Dawn Brigade:

Top

Sothe

Volug

Nolan

Jill (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def)

High

Black Knight

Micaiah

Zihark (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Jill

Tauroneo

Mid

Muarim

Nailah

Laura

Rafiel

Edward

Tormod

Aran

Low

Vika

Leonardo

Ilyana

Bottom

Fiona

Meg

The only part of the list I have no problems with is Top.

Moving down, let's consider the god units first. The Black Knight is probably soloing 1-9, is one of three god units in 1-E (but the only one with 1-2 range), and joins part-way through 3-6 as the only god unit (in a very tough chapter). Tauroneo is a the sole god unit in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 where he is very helpful. He also has some value in 3-12 and 3-13 as a mortal, but still competent, unit. Muarim is the sole god unit in 1-7 (and starts with a full guage, and so probably doesn't need to use Olivi Grass), a help in 1-8 (dominates his part of the map with a Laguz Stone or some Olivi Grass), and one of three potential god units in 1-E (but needs to be transformed unlike Nailah). Nailah is just slightly better than Muarim in 1-8 and 1-E because she doesn't need to use any grass, but this isn't enough, in my opinion, to outweigh Muarim's 1-7.

In between the Black Knight and Tauroneo, I saw fit to place Micaiah, Zihark, and Jill. Micaiah has the most availability and is a meaningful contributor throughout via Thani-bombing and healing. Zihark has almost as much availability as Volug and actually has better combat throughout Part 1 (minus the move). Zihark is can also be a big help in 3-12 and a smaller help in 3-6 and 3-13. He doesn't need any resources to contribute, unlike our friend Jill. And while Jill can end up contributing more than Zihark, it is only with a host of valuable resources that she must be penalized for taking.

Below Nailah are a couple utility units. Rafiel, I saw as less valuable than god units. He need not even exist in 1-8, because Nailah can solo that section of the map by herself, but he can be very helpful in 1-E - if we dedicate some units to ferrying him. Laura, I deem, is more valuable overall as a staff user in almost all of the DB chapters.

Below them I place the other two LEA members and the two middling tier 1 DBers. Edward, I think, is most valuable for his contributions early in part 1 (especially in 1-P). Training Edward won't pay off in Part 1, but can be potentially helpful in part 3. Tormod is quite helpful in 1-7 and 1-8, possibly the best non-god unit. Aran, like Edward, can be trained in Part 1 to help out in Part 3. When compared with Edward, Aran's probably a little more valuable in Part 3 when trained, but he lacks most of Edward's early-game utility. Vika might have some contributions in 1-7 and 1-E and is a big help in 1-8.

Two pot-shotters follow Vika. While Ilyana is the superior pot-shotter in their shared chapters, I give Leonardo the nod due to his greater availability.

Fiona and Meg are rightfully together in bottom tier. They're likely to just chip and perform utility roles in their free-deployment chapters. Meg has better chip and more free deployment chapters, but Fiona has better utility thanks to superior mov and canto.

I feel like your tier list is a bit more accurate, and your points are valid.

Edit:Shit, double post.Sorry

Edited August 6, 2011 by Lilmik11

[RNG Princess]

Leo does chip nicely in P3 ^^' I agree with Leo > Fiona/Meg

Tauro is too high imo he's good for 1 chapter and then gone until P3

Edited August 6, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Anouleth]

Then argue it because I only put that list together in like 10 minutes not taking much into account.

Not that Edward's very useful past the point Leonardo is in HM anyway.

Edward can contribute better than Leonardo in 1-8 (where you want offense on the north side of the map to pull off the 3-turn strategy). And obviously he has better earlygame contribution through... basically every chapter until you get to 1-5 and stop caring.

Edward should at least be at the bottom of Mid.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Anouleth

[Lilmik11]

I think I'm going to put something together to show how well Leo can contribute in part 3.

Base Leo with his prf bow has 24 atk and 13 AS. That's good enough to double untransformed laguz in 3-6 and untranformed tigers in 3-13.Here's some stats from 3-6 .

3-6

Cat lvl 16

HP 43, Atk 29, AS 22, Hit 141, Avo 51, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Here, Leo will do 10. That's small, but, with 33 HP left,they are very vulnerable. A good Nolan and Edward together can probably 1RKO them after that, if one of them don't have beastfoe.Untransformed, Leo will do 17. Then, it's also an easy 1RKO.

Tiger lvl 15

HP 48, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 136, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 6, Crit 10, Ddg 6

Here, Leo will only do 6 damage. That's kinda bad, I admit it, but still, it helps lowering the laguz gauge.Untransformed, he will do 13+13= 26. That's good enough for all your promoted DB to 1RKO, too.

I know, that's not much, but it's certainly better that lolFiona.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Lilmik11

[dondon151]

He can't unless you give him Beastfoe, which is in high demand by at least 3 other units.

The only use that Leo has in 3-6 is heavily damaging or killing untransformed laguz, because Lughnasadh gives him enough AS after a few spd level ups to double all of them, but he probably won't have the necessary atk to cleanly ORKO.

[Lord Raven]

As for our discrepancies in our lists; Black Knight should not be that far above Muarim or Nailah if he's going to be that high. Muarim is indeed the sole "God unit" in his chapter, so I see where you are coming from with Muarim > Nailah and I will keep that in mind when I remake the list in order to reflect that.

The black knight's position as being that high is something that is iffy to me -- I'm aware he comes in during 3-6 but doesn't he come quite late into the chapter? I'm honestly not sure how that could help *that* much that it puts him above Muarim and Nailah. I haven't played 3-6 in a long time on hard mode but when I played it the Zihark/Volug B Support and Sothe going off on his own (and in a real playthrough you'd have a decent Jill and Nolan with Tarvos helping out) was enough that the Black Knight was around for like 3-4 turns. This wasn't even an efficient playthrough, either, it was just for the sake of going through hard mode (and I didn't know of efficiency at this point either).

Micaiah's Thani dropping is not useful enough to place her over things like Zihark/Jill, considering she still only really ends up hitting Armors with it. You get a Hammer by the time Jill comes around, and Zihark's Earth support (especially with Volug) boosts his durability and thus his ability to actually go out on the offensive. This is bolstered by his transfer gains. I do agree with Zihark > Jill without Transfer > Tauroneo though, but I don't see any reason to have Micaiah there. I'd actually go so far as to say Zihark > Jill No Transfer > Muarim > Nailah > Black Knight > Tauroneo if anything.

Rafiel indeed works when going down to Mid. Vika, Tormod, Micaiah are also down to mid. In my opinion it should instead go something like Rafiel > Micaiah > Tormod > Vika, actually. Laura's durability blows, Edward helps a lot with 1-P, a bit with 1-1 and 1-2, and that's just about the extent of Edward's help; longterm building up with him and Aran is indeed good, but the fact of the matter is that it's not going to happen. It's just not very practical. I think Edward at least deserves bottom of mid for this utility, but that's it. Vika's speed and movement is a good quality in her favor, which is why she's in Mid; I'd put her below Edward for that reason. Her gauge isn't too bad, either.

Now we have Low tier. Ilyana's good for potshotting, Leonardo's good for potshotting, and yes Leonardo's availability in potshotting is better than Ilyana's because his are directly worked into strategies. Ilyana's aren't necessarily, and I want to wait for more precise judgments when dealing with Leonardo/Ilyana; for now I'll place Leonardo above Ilyana but that's more or less it. Aran's not going to be used long term, and honestly he can't attack as well as Ilyana nor is he, as far as I know, factored into strategies like Leonardo can be. Leonardo > Ilyana > Aran is looking likely for me right now.

Laura's position as a healer is the only thing going for her. She is not always necessary, however, for low turn strategies and she is actually a very large burden simply because she gets doubled in the chapter she enters, and she doesn't catch up fast enough without BEXP to actually be of use anywhere. Laura makes sense below Aran.

I can't think at all of how Meg's chipping would be factored into a low turn strategy. Not one bit. Fiona can even chip in 3-6 and she helps out with 3-13 through chipping (as in, laguz gauge killing) and transporting allied units to chokeholds. I actually have her above Aran simply because Aran can't be as big a utility as Fiona, in any circumstance. And Meg could just go to the bottom of Low because she doesn't have any redeeming qualities. Low and Bottom tiers with these new refurbishes (you actually helped me) are very iffy to me now, if anyone could help?

EDIT: This was all at aku chi, i was postsniped.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Fenrir]

I stopped reading after I saw

Zihark at the top of DB

Also, Part 4 and Endgame don't need to be separate, unless you're just trying to make Oliver or whoever look better.

Agreed

[aku chi]

The black knight's position as being that high is something that is iffy to me -- I'm aware he comes in during 3-6 but doesn't he come quite late into the chapter? I'm honestly not sure how that could help *that* much that it puts him above Muarim and Nailah. I haven't played 3-6 in a long time on hard mode but when I played it the Zihark/Volug B Support and Sothe going off on his own (and in a real playthrough you'd have a decent Jill and Nolan with Tarvos helping out) was enough that the Black Knight was around for like 3-4 turns. This wasn't even an efficient playthrough, either, it was just for the sake of going through hard mode (and I didn't know of efficiency at this point either).

I believe the Black Knight arrives around turn 5 in 3-6. He will need to be ferried to the front to make a big contribution, but he is a god unit once he gets there, with all the utility that implies. The Black Knight's position is heavily dependent on how you evaluate his 1-9 performance. It is the most important performance of any single unit in all of the DB chapters, but we obviously don't want to award near-infinite utility for this one chapter. So I could see the Black Knight below Zihark and Jill. But I think he must stay above Nailah, because he is almost as valuable in 1-E, his 1-9 blows away her 1-8, and he has 3-6 to boot.

Micaiah's Thani dropping is not useful enough to place her over things like Zihark/Jill, considering she still only really ends up hitting Armors with it. You get a Hammer by the time Jill comes around, and Zihark's Earth support (especially with Volug) boosts his durability and thus his ability to actually go out on the offensive. This is bolstered by his transfer gains. I do agree with Zihark > Jill without Transfer > Tauroneo though, but I don't see any reason to have Micaiah there.

Micaiah has important chip damage in the early part 1 chapters, especially 1-P. Micaiah can nab several important 1HKOs with Thani throughout Part 1 - most notably against Burton in 1-3. She can also heal in a pinch with Sacrifice. Micaiah is very important in 3-6 with Physic, where she has more range and heals more than Laura. Healing/Purging in 3-12 and 3-13 is less impressive, but still valuable. It's hard to compare the myriad of Micaiah's small contributions throughout her 14 chapters to the god units in their 2-3 chapters, but I lean towards Micaiah delivering more total utility.

...longterm building up with him and Aran is indeed good, but the fact of the matter is that it's not going to happen. It's just not very practical.

I'd prefer not to make that assumption. Training a third tier 1 DB may not be most efficient, but it also isn't damaging, especially if that third DBer is Aran or Edward. Training them will lower Nolan and/or Jill's level going into Part 3, but their contributions have the potential to justify that cost.

Aran's not going to be used long term, and honestly he can't attack as well as Ilyana nor is he, as far as I know, factored into strategies like Leonardo can be. Leonardo > Ilyana > Aran is looking likely for me right now.

Even if you ignore Aran's potential to be trained (which you shouldn't), he's still superior to Ilyana. While he can't deal as much damage at 2-range, he can deal at least as much damage at 1 range with an Iron Lance forge and can provide walling utility, most notably in 1-4. And he has part 3 to potshot, unlike Ilyana. When compared with Leonardo, untrained Aran lacks Leonardo's early chip and has an inferior part 3, but he is better in their shared part 1 chapters.

Laura's position as a healer is the only thing going for her. She is not always necessary, however, for low turn strategies and she is actually a very large burden simply because she gets doubled in the chapter she enters, and she doesn't catch up fast enough without BEXP to actually be of use anywhere. Laura makes sense below Aran.

I disagree. Laura should at least be tiered above Leonardo. Her healing effectively allows Nolan or Sothe an extra player-phase action whenever they're injured enough to need to use a Vulnerary (quite often). I'd take an extra player phase from Nolan or Sothe over a player phase from Leonardo or Ilyana anyday. And the potshotters don't have enough of a durability advantage over Laura for that to be relevant - they must all be protected. Whether or not Laura's healing is more valuable than Edward's early utility or Tormod and Vika's good few chapters is harder to evaluate.

I can't think at all of how Meg's chipping would be factored into a low turn strategy. Not one bit. Fiona can even chip in 3-6 and she helps out with 3-13 through chipping (as in, laguz gauge killing) and transporting allied units to chokeholds. I actually have her above Aran simply because Aran can't be as big a utility as Fiona, in any circumstance. And Meg could just go to the bottom of Low because she doesn't have any redeeming qualities. Low and Bottom tiers with these new refurbishes (you actually helped me) are very iffy to me now, if anyone could help?

Meg can chip against laguz in 1-4 (lower gauge and damage), unlike Fiona. She can also shove a handful of units in her free deployment. She can perform many of the same utility roles as Fiona, like chipping at laguz in 3-6 and ledge blocking in 3-13. Fiona's canto and rescue utility might give her a slight edge over Meg, but not enough to save her from Bottom Tier.

[Lord Raven]

I posted reasons as to why i feel that way about the latter, if you could provide a better reason than that then I'd absolutely love to hear it. I'm open to suggestions, not condescending remarks that some smartasses like to make in order to make me feel like a dumbass.

I also forgot to include Top tier in my refurbish, it wasn't that hard to notice.

EDIT: aku chi I'm reading your post now.

I believe the Black Knight arrives around turn 5 in 3-6. He will need to be ferried to the front to make a big contribution, but he is a god unit once he gets there, with all the utility that implies. The Black Knight's position is heavily dependent on how you evaluate his 1-9 performance. It is the most important performance of any single unit in all of the DB chapters, but we obviously don't want to award near-infinite utility for this one chapter. So I could see the Black Knight below Zihark and Jill. But I think he must stay above Nailah, because he is almost as valuable in 1-E, his 1-9 blows away her 1-8, and he has 3-6 to boot.

Well said, I'll do just that.

I'm actually iffy on Zihark/Jill where they are, if that helps, but I'm waiting for more opinions on this. I'm actually contemplating shifting them below the Muarim/BK/Nailah trio.

Micaiah has important chip damage in the early part 1 chapters, especially 1-P. Micaiah can nab several important 1HKOs with Thani throughout Part 1 - most notably against Burton in 1-3. She can also heal in a pinch with Sacrifice. Micaiah is very important in 3-6 with Physic, where she has more range and heals more than Laura. Healing/Purging in 3-12 and 3-13 is less impressive, but still valuable. It's hard to compare the myriad of Micaiah's small contributions throughout her 14 chapters to the god units in their 2-3 chapters, but I lean towards Micaiah delivering more total utility.

I guess moving her to the bottom of High doesn't sound like a bad idea right now?

I'd prefer not to make that assumption. Training a third tier 1 DB may not be most efficient, but it also isn't damaging, especially if that third DBer is Aran or Edward. Training them will lower Nolan and/or Jill's level going into Part 3, but their contributions have the potential to justify that cost.

I hate using personal experience again since I wasn't the best player when I did hard mode, but even as newbie player I could not get Edward to a good level fast enough to actually use him consistently. Aran is another case, but I don't think giving up EXP for Jill and Nolan is worth using Aran at all, although I do agree that Bottom is _way_ too low for him and I'm not sure where that came from. Bottom of Mid seems just right for him...

Even if you ignore Aran's potential to be trained (which you shouldn't), he's still superior to Ilyana. While he can't deal as much damage at 2-range, he can deal at least as much damage at 1 range with an Iron Lance forge and can provide walling utility, most notably in 1-4. And he has part 3 to potshot, unlike Ilyana. When compared with Leonardo, untrained Aran lacks Leonardo's early chip and has an inferior part 3, but he is better in their shared part 1 chapters.

I disagree. Laura should at least be tiered above Leonardo. Her healing effectively allows Nolan or Sothe an extra player-phase action whenever they're injured enough to need to use a Vulnerary (quite often). I'd take an extra player phase from Nolan or Sothe over a player phase from Leonardo or Ilyana anyday. And the potshotters don't have enough of a durability advantage over Laura for that to be relevant - they must all be protected. Whether or not Laura's healing is more valuable than Edward's early utility or Tormod and Vika's good few chapters is harder to evaluate.

In which chapters does this apply? In 1-2 Nolan would be fine given a couple Vulneraries. Sothe actually almost never needs healing, and when she goes up to the frontlines to heal she gets mauled very quickly.

Meg can chip against laguz in 1-4 (lower gauge and damage), unlike Fiona. She can also shove a handful of units in her free deployment. She can perform many of the same utility roles as Fiona, like chipping at laguz in 3-6 and ledge blocking in 3-13. Fiona's canto and rescue utility might give her a slight edge over Meg, but not enough to save her from Bottom Tier.

I guess using the Wind Edge helps her cause there (although she has something like 74 accuracy). Fiona's actually in Bottom tier now, I way updated the list.

Changes:

Mid

Micaiah

Tormod

Rafiel

Edward

Leonardo

Vika

Ilyana

Aran

Laura

Bottom

Fiona

Meg

I got rid of low tier. If i were to do a low tier, I'd cut it off at either Edward or Leonardo, although I still feel iffy placing Vika as low as she is while Tormod's much higher. I also feel kind of iffy placing Edward below Tormod.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Mercenary Raven