Multiple tier list idea

[Anouleth]

We'd do it so Nolan could spend a turn getting ahead?

Well on Turn 1, Nolan moves and attacks the Javelin Soldier (some people might have him use the Dracoshield on turn 1). He gets attacked by another Fighter on EP and a third approaches as well. If Nolan moves out of his position on turn 2, Leonardo or Edward or Micaiah would be exposed to more attacks than they can handle. So Nolan is usually just going to eat a Vulnerary. So no, we don't really want Nolan to move on that turn.

He can even help Edward get kills if Edward's doing 8x2, considering it prevents Edward from getting damaged a second time against a Fighter while Micaiah steals a kill from a Fighter.

Edward prefers to spend his Player Phases stuffing Herbs into his face.

[Lord Raven]

Therefore Leonardo has a player phase and Edward has an enemy phase. It cancels out because Edward is 2HKO'd.. Part 1 isn't even his entire argument, 3-6 and 3-13 are in his favor too (3-13 is to a smaller extent though). He also ferries Laura in 1-2 for a 6-turn clear.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Anouleth]

Therefore Leonardo has a player phase and Edward has an enemy phase. It cancels out because Edward is 2HKO'd..

No, it isn't. If Edward does not do his enemy phase job your advance is severely curtailed since Nolan has to do it all instead (or you have Leonardo take axes to the face in place of Edward which is also very slow because he does no damage in return and has no player phase because he's healing so you effectively only have two units dealing damage). If Leonardo does not do his enemy phase job... *shrug* not really a big deal.

[Lord Raven]

Why would you heal Leonardo if he gets hit once? You wouldn't want him to get hit more than once to begin with but that's beside the point. What is wrong with Leonardo taking a kill from Nolan? Two fighters surround him anyway, if I recall correctly, so Leonardo could off one of them and Nolan offs the other -- he takes one less hit on enemy phase that way.

[aku chi]

I think Anouleth handled the Titania (T) vs. Ike (T) argument at least as well as I could have.

I actually don't think I made my point clear so I apologize! I was wondering why there was such a large tier gap between them, not why Soren was better. I indeed acknowledge Soren's better, and I may have actually ended up arguing Rolf > Soren but I think the intent was that Rolf shouldn't be that low compared to him (with transfer bonuses).

Transfer boosted Rolf actually gets exactly enough Speed he needs to double Sages. I'm also somewhat certain he OHKOs many of the 1-1 Sages with transfer boost. Without transfer boost.... ehhhh oh well, there actually should be a large gap between Rolf and Soren. But without it, Rolf should be closer. I'll rebrowse the list and see what's going on there.

*shrug* It's hard to compare Soren (T)'s performance to Sigrun's performance, for instance. Sigrun is probably more valuable in 3-11 and 3-E than Soren (T) is in 3-P and 3-1, but Soren (T) has the potential for contributions beyond 3-1 that are hard to evaluate. I don't see much difference between the contributions of the units in Lower-Mid (the better-than-nothing 3-11 fliers and the better than nothing 3-P and 3-1 chippers). And then there's Soren (T) vs. healers, which is another hard comparison. I don't have any good reasons why there are more units between Soren (T) and Rolf (T) compared with Rolf (T) and Rolf and I don't care enough to argue. Feel free to propose a re-arragement in that area.

Erm... If you place the Speedwing in 2-3 into the convoy (which you'd want to do) then give Haar a Hammer and a Speedwing, park him in front of the Steel Longbow Archer (I'm fairly sure that works in this mode, too), then he will ORKO Ludveck. Ludveck has 18 AS. That is pretty much 100% certainty. Worst case scenario, Marcia gets the Speedwing from Danved or whoever you have offing the Halberdier with the Speedwing, transfers it over to Haar through trade chains with Elincia and any other unit who exists there. It is definitely a 100% guaranteed strategy with Haar, Elincia's the one that requires a proc's Stun. And a 1-turn strategy with a simple Stun proc is something that you can easily reset for.

No, it is not. Haar is looking at around 80-90 displayed hit against Ludveck. And since he needs to hit twice, there's plenty of margin for failure. And doesn't Haar need to avoid being crit-killed by a Thunder Sage? Elincia needs to proc Stun, which she has <65% chance of doing. And I'm not sure I want to contribute to any tier list where reset abuse is used as an excuse to reject more reliable strategies.

Also, Kyza > Brom shouldn't exist... here's why. The 3-turn strategy I have involving Shinon requires a Shove, and Brom basically has free deployment in that chapter iirc so Brom could easily Shove Shinon into place (or give that first initial Shove to at least get Shinon that far).

And Kyza can make any number of shoves that we may need in 3-4 and beyond. When transformed (with Wildheart or naturally), Kyza can shove every mounted unit, something that Brom can never do.

I'll copy your low tier but fix that...

If you are so impressed by Brom's one optional shove in one particular strategy of one particular chapter as to place him over Kyza, you should also place him (and Kyza) over Kieran (T) and Makalov (T). Also, you forgot to remove Zihark from Lower-Mid; he's in two places now.

Also, Brom is *not* good, but I don't think Kyza is any better at all. Brom's got decent defense on his side at least despite being doubled later on in the part (and probably even at the time), whereas Kyza has all of that (well 22 AS, he doesn't get doubled) with an added Laguz gauge to worry about.

Kyza's durability is at least as good as Brom's with his comparable Defense and Resistance and much higher HP. And Kyza isn't doubled. Kyza can, in fact, double some of the slower enemies. Kyza's offensive contributions normally aren't any better than Brom's, but it only takes an Energy Drop for his damage to become respectable (around Oscar-level). Most importantly, he has 9 mov instead of 6. It's a shame he has such stiff competition for deployment, because he really isn't a bad unit (he's not stellar, granted).

Edited August 8, 2011 by aku chi

[Lord Raven]

*shrug* It's hard to compare Soren (T)'s performance to Sigrun's performance, for instance. Sigrun is probably more valuable in 3-11 and 3-E than Soren (T) is in 3-P and 3-1, but Soren (T) has the potential for contributions beyond 3-1 that are hard to evaluate. I don't see much difference between the contributions of the units in Lower-Mid (the better-than-nothing 3-11 fliers and the better than nothing 3-P and 3-1 chippers). And then there's Soren (T) vs. healers, which is another hard comparison. I don't have any good reasons why there are more units between Soren (T) and Rolf (T) compared with Rolf (T) and Rolf and I don't care enough to argue. Feel free to propose a re-arragement in that area.

This is kind of a pickle, because the gap that I was referring to was more or less in sync with a full tier gap -- either way, I don't see how Mist (T) > Rhys considering Mist will always heal for less (8 less in fact) and how they both get killed pretty quickly anyway. Rhys gets doubled and killed, granted, but Mist (T) gets 2HKO'd with not as good healing no matter how it's sliced. The only thing Mist ever has over Rhys is long-term use, but Part 4 isn't a factor yet.

No, it is not. Haar is looking at around 80-90 displayed hit against Ludveck. And since he needs to hit twice, there's plenty of margin for failure. And doesn't Haar need to avoid being crit-killed by a Thunder Sage? Elincia needs to proc Stun, which she has <65% chance of doing. And I'm not sure I want to contribute to any tier list where reset abuse is used as an excuse to reject more reliable strategies.

80-90 displayed hit is very reliable, and needing to not get crit-killed from something like a 5-10% rate is not that hard to do. You know this game runs on 2 RNs, right?

For Elincia to proc Stun, I'm aware it's less reliable hence I was stating it as fact. The difference between 1-turn reliability in hard mode and something like a 5-6 turn reliability is that if you could finish the chapter in 1 turn, why not keep restarting? If you need some magic to happen on turn 1 then it's never a bad idea to restart for that to happen unless it's a very low chance. In this case, there's something like a 10% chance of failure (ie Haar dies which you'd reset for regardless, and if you magically miss one of two hits that each have 90-98% real hit or something to hit -- for reference, that's actually, by itself, an 80 to 90 something percent chance of actually killing Ludveck). But it's still an easy 1-turn and it only requires Haar to obtain two speed procs or a Speedwing.

At any rate, when the chances are _so_ high of a 1-turn success it may as well be the best strategy, because if something goes wrong it's not hard to just reboot the game in order to pull it off. It's not like we're proc'ing a 1% critical early on or even like a 10-20% critical; it's making sure that a 5-10% critical DOESNT happen and that two 80-90 displayed hits do hit.

And Kyza can make any number of shoves that we may need in 3-4 and beyond. When transformed (with Wildheart or naturally), Kyza can shove every mounted unit, something that Brom can never do. If you are so impressed by Brom's one optional shove in one particular strategy of one particular chapter as to place him over Kyza, you should also place him (and Kyza) over Kieran (T) and Makalov (T).

Yea it was a stupid ass argument I apologize. I do agree that Brom and Kyza > them though, simply for whatever pre-3-9 utility you need.

Also, you forgot to remove Zihark from Lower-Mid; he's in two places now.

his blinding speed has led him to replicate

Kyza's durability is at least as good as Brom's with his comparable Defense and Resistance and much higher HP. And Kyza isn't doubled. Kyza can, in fact, double some of the slower enemies. Kyza's offensive contributions normally aren't any better than Brom's, but it only takes an Energy Drop for his damage to become repectable (around Oscar-level). Most importantly, he has 9 mov instead of 6. It's a shame he has such stiff competition for deployment, because he really isn't a bad unit (he's not stellar, granted).

Wildheart Kyza is doubled but yeah you're right otherwise. When used Kyza is actually not too bad -- Top of Low is absolutely perfect for him because the Strength Drop boosts his Str up to 24. His problem at this point is the standard Laguz gauge, which is why top of Low is absolutely perfect for him. Edited August 8, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[aku chi]

This is kind of a pickle, because the gap that I was referring to was more or less in sync with a full tier gap -- either way, I don't see how Mist (T) > Rhys considering Mist will always heal for less (8 less in fact) and how they both get killed pretty quickly anyway. Rhys gets doubled and killed, granted, but Mist (T) gets 2HKO'd with not as good healing no matter how it's sliced. The only thing Mist ever has over Rhys is long-term use, but Part 4 isn't a factor yet.

Well, there's also +1 Mov and a slightly better affinity, but I'm not opposed to Rhys > Mist (T). Rhys has better chip damage and Physic range (the extra healing is rarely relevant, though).

The difference between 1-turn reliability in hard mode and something like a 5-6 turn reliability is that if you could finish the chapter in 1 turn, why not keep restarting?

Last I heard, we tier based on efficiency, not low turns. There is a difference, and it exists in reliability. I don't have a problem with you (or anybody else) acknowledging that 2-E can be cleared in 1-turn, but I do have a problem with a 1-turn clear being assumed.

[Radiant Dragon]

When transformed (with Wildheart or naturally), Kyza can shove every mounted unit, something that Brom can never do.

...Mounted units can be shoved in this game?

[aku chi]

...Mounted units can be shoved in this game?

Oops, I was using the PoR shove formulas! Mounted units can be shoved, but it is a very rare occurance. Kyza can shove all of the Falcon Knights, which is nice. But neither he nor even Mordecai can shove the Paladins or Dracomasters (Mordecai might be able to shove some Paladins with a Statue Frag). If my calculations are correct. Feel free to double-check.

[dondon151]

Yes, they just have a lot of WT, so you can only shove them with units that have a lot of con. In my 4-5 1 turn strat, I needed a couple of shoves on Elincia because she didn't have the staff range to perform the double Rescue on Volke and get him to Izuka.

I don't really know what's going on with the deluge of stupid Leonardo arguments. As for Ike vs. Titania in part 3, I'd wager that Titania (N) > Ike (T) is an accurate ordering of their relative positions. It severely pains me to see thorough combat comparisons taken seriously because everyone should know by now that it's the 2 mov that really makes the difference.

Edited August 8, 2011 by dondon151

[Radiant Dragon]

Huh. That's good to know. I always assumed they got rid of that in RD.

[Lord Raven]

As for Ike vs. Titania in part 3, I'd wager that Titania (N) > Ike (T) is an accurate ordering of their relative positions. It severely pains me to see thorough combat comparisons taken seriously because everyone should know by now that it's the 2 mov that really makes the difference.

Huh, for Part 3 I'm actually inclined to agree there. It's easy to forget that Part 4 doesn't affect this list.

Also, I moved Soren to the top of lower mid as opposed to above Mist/Rhys, removed Mist(T) and Rhys(T) and fixed the Titania > Ike. Ike's still got the best offensive parameters next to the super mounted axe users, which is why he deserves bottom of Top but I'm willing to budge on top of High.

As for Leonardo I'm starting to budge, this is my suggested thing:

Mid

Micaiah

Edward

Tormod

Rafiel

Vika

Laura

Low

Leonardo

Ilyana

Aran

Vika is > Laura because of lategame utility, 2RKOing those Dracoknights and potentially saving a villager. Leonardo's early chip and 3-6 chip I feel is on par with Ilyana's chip for the most part, and I can't see why Ilyana would be > Leonardo (actually I could, but...) and as for Aran... he actually does just as much with a Javelin as Leonardo does with a Steel Bow in the subsequent chapters, in case anyone wants to prioritize Aran's chip with a Javelin. Aran's part 3 utility has an extremely hard, inefficient time existing so I can't place that as a point in his favor at all.

Well, there's also +1 Mov and a slightly better affinity, but I'm not opposed to Rhys > Mist (T). Rhys has better chip damage and Physic range (the extra healing is rarely relevant, though).

Will do. 5 spaces is quite large, in my opinion. At least, at that point because they're both really frail.

Last I heard, we tier based on efficiency, not low turns. There is a difference, and it exists in reliability. I don't have a problem with you (or anybody else) acknowledging that 2-E can be cleared in 1-turn, but I do have a problem with a 1-turn clear being assumed.

Low turns is more or less the direct, objective result to efficiency; in this case, it's very efficient to park Haar in that spot. It's like 75-80% chance of occurring efficient, and it's only 1-turn. This is about the probability of a bunch of things happening inside a regular chapter's efficiency run. Edited August 8, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[dondon151]

If he's really concerned about that specific instance, the player would still need Haar in a 3 turn clear that obtains the Energy Drop and the Dracoshield.

[Lilmik11]

Huh, for Part 3 I'm actually inclined to agree there. It's easy to forget that Part 4 doesn't affect this list.

Also, I moved Soren to the top of lower mid as opposed to above Mist/Rhys, removed Mist(T) and Rhys(T) and fixed the Titania > Ike. Ike's still got the best offensive parameters next to the super mounted axe users, which is why he deserves bottom of Top but I'm willing to budge on top of High.

As for Leonardo I'm starting to budge, this is my suggested thing:

Mid

Micaiah

Edward

Tormod

Rafiel

Vika

Laura

Low

Leonardo

Ilyana

Aran

Vika is > Laura because of lategame utility, 2RKOing those Dracoknights and potentially saving a villager. Leonardo's early chip and 3-6 chip I feel is on par with Ilyana's chip for the most part, and I can't see why Ilyana would be > Leonardo (actually I could, but...) and as for Aran... he actually does just as much with a Javelin as Leonardo does with a Steel Bow in the subsequent chapters, in case anyone wants to prioritize Aran's chip with a Javelin. Aran's part 3 utility has an extremely hard, inefficient time existing so I can't place that as a point in his favor at all.

Will do. 5 spaces is quite large, in my opinion. At least, at that point because they're both really frail.

Low turns is more or less the direct, objective result to efficiency; in this case, it's very efficient to park Haar in that spot. It's like 75-80% chance of occurring efficient, and it's only 1-turn. This is about the probability of a bunch of things happening inside a regular chapter's efficiency run.

Vika>Laura? OH HELL TO THE NO! Laura is a great healer for more than 10 chapters, while Vika is a great unit for 3 chapters. Laura's healing is irreplaceable in part 1. Instead of wasting a turn by eating a vulnerary, any damaged unit can get healed by Laura, so instead they can attack an enemy, thus saving turns. Other than 2RKOing the Dracoknights in 1-8, which is not that good, and flying, I don't see what's that good about Vika.Hell, if you bring Laura along in each chapter, she can easily gain three levels. Then, you can bexp her to level 10 and seal, et voila, you get a great chipper and healer for the entirity of part 3.

[Lord Raven]

Other than 2RKOing the Dracoknights in 1-8, which is not that good, and flying, I don't see what's that good about Vika

"Not that good"? She's good for taking down those pesky Dracoknights -- they are probably some of the more irritating things to kill considering not only do getting all the villagers killed result in a game over but that one particular one enjoys flying around like a little bitch. Two Olivi Grass or even one round of combat with no damage is enough to get her transformed by Turn 2.

Laura's healing is irreplaceable in part 1. Instead of wasting a turn by eating a vulnerary, any damaged unit can get healed by Laura, so instead they can attack an enemy, thus saving turns.

Let me know when this is ever the case. There are times where Nolan wants to eat a Vulnerary without dragging Laura into harm's way; 1-2 comes to mind in this instance. Let me know some more of when this will be useful; from 1-6 onwards you have a "God unit" for every single chapters that will go through the chapter easily and with very little healing. On top of Sothe and Zihark not minding popping a Vulnerary every so often (Zihark being the one more likely to do this -- Sothe tends to be fine throughout Part 1). Just let me know just how much this ends up helping; as far as I know it only helps in one chapter if you're sending more than just Sothe out against enemies (which is likely but still).

Vika can ferry Micaiah or something in 1-E, and can help with ferrying/shoving in 1-7 for the 5-turn strategy. Her flying utility is worth a bit more than Laura's healing; Laura cannot even do all that much until Part 3.

How is Laura getting a few level ups in Part 1, exactly? I can't see her getting more than 1, 2 at best. And then being able to cough of 7 levels up BEXP just for Laura and no one else is kind of surprising (though she may not need as much at Level 3 onwards as you do for characters like Zihark, Sothe, Micaiah, Nolan, Jill, etc). I don't think Laura is that useful overall, Healing is not as necessary as you make it sound, and with a Physic staff she not only doesn't heal for much but she doesn't have much range with it to begin with. Oh, and anyone arguing that she can put Ike to Sleep... stop.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Junkhead]

Why is Muarim above Nailah and BK.

[Zanarkin]

Why is Edward so low, when he helps to do so much. Even if we are not going to use him seriously, he helps low turn early chapters with Nolan.

[Lord Raven]

Why is Muarim above Nailah and BK.

Someone (aku chi) posted a justification earlier, but the fact of the matter is that the BK is a super unit for two and a half chapters (1-9, 1-E, 3-6) and in one of those, he's "hampered" by his movement. Nailah and Muarim are killing things with equal quality -- Muarim requires an Olivi every so often (his gauge is fine) but he's still killing everything in his path. Nailah's stats are overkill, at this point, on top of the fact that Muarim has 1-7 to do this on top of 1-8 and 1-E. You *could* have a case for Nailah > Muarim, but Muarim definitely > BK due to movement in 1-E.

Why is Edward so low, when he helps to do so much. Even if we are not going to use him seriously, he helps low turn early chapters with Nolan.

He's towards the top of mid, right below Micaiah. Edited August 8, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Florete]

Someone (aku chi) posted a justification earlier, but the fact of the matter is that the BK is a super unit for two and a half chapters (1-9, 1-E, 3-6) and in one of those, he's "hampered" by his movement. Nailah and Muarim are killing things with equal quality -- Muarim requires an Olivi every so often (his gauge is fine) but he's still killing everything in his path. Nailah's stats are overkill, at this point, on top of the fact that Muarim has 1-7 to do this on top of 1-8 and 1-E. You *could* have a case for Nailah > Muarim, but Muarim definitely > BK due to movement in 1-E.

Muarim takes at least 3 turns (or 2 with Rafiel in 1-E) to transform in 1-8 and 1-E. 1-8 can be beaten in 4 with a limited team and can probably be beaten in 3 otherwise. 1-E is long enough and has enough ranged enemies that his gauge will actually be a problem. Hell, Nailah can even Rescue Micaiah - without Savior - and her performance will probably not change much, if at all. Nailah is pretty much essential for fast clears of both 1-8 1-E, which I'd say is pretty clearly more important than whatever Muarim does to help at the same time.

[Junkhead]

Is this based on HM too?

[Zanarkin]

but Muarim definitely > BK due to movement in 1-E.

BK may have movement issues but

-He doesn't have to wait a few turns to be useful

-Has 2 range

-Won't stop being able to attack

-Has 1-9, 1-E (sort of ties with Muarim because of his movement issue vs. Gauge), and 3-6

-Can take on Ledge enemies without fail

-Isn't afraid of anything

[Junkhead]

BK's Mov "issues" aren't such a problem, to be honest. If you have him go through the stairs and use his full Mov every turn, he will get to the top where all the Armours are at Turn 6. On top of that, he'll kill them all and Jarod with 2-range.

[Anouleth]

Rather brings up the question of why the Black Knight is a full tier above Muarim on the other tier list, to hear it laid out like that.

[Lord Raven]

I'm saying compared to Muarim and not in general, since BK does have the ledge going for him.

BK may have movement issues but

-He doesn't have to wait a few turns to be useful

-Has 2 range

-Won't stop being able to attack

-Has 1-9, 1-E (sort of ties with Muarim because of his movement issue vs. Gauge), and 3-6

-Can take on Ledge enemies without fail

-Isn't afraid of anything

So... he ties Muarim? Muarim's got 1-7 and 1-8 compared to BK's 1-9 and 3-6, it just so happens the tiebreaker would be 1-E where Muarim's doing a little bit better due to move (Rafiel can get him transformed by Turn 2). Muarim's 1-8 is comparable to BK's 3-6 considering Muarim starts late and BK joins late, and 1-7 is not unlike 1-9 (BK's 1-9 is obviously better) so it's honestly a close call.

Nailah > Muarim I can agree with because Nailah's 1-8 is obviously more useful, and Nailah can ferry Micaiah in 1-E.

[aku chi]

You *could* have a case for Nailah > Muarim, but Muarim definitely > BK due to movement in 1-E.

I was thinking the exact opposite. Muarim is just as useful as Nailah in 1-8 (he dominates his section of the map like she dominates hers). Muarim isn't as good as Nailah in 1-E because he needs to take some time and Olivi grass to transform (and stay transformed) but Nailah doesn't have an answer for Muarim's 1-7, in which he is the resident god unit.

The Black Knight, on the other hand, bests Muarim chapter-for-chapter. He is more valuable in 1-E for his unique 1-2 range godliness. Muarim's 1-7 may be awesome, but nothing can compare to the Black Knight solo in 1-9 for per-chapter contributions. 3-6 and 1-8 are their least valuable chapters, but I'd still give the nod to the Black Knight, because nobody can do what he does in 3-6 (even if he does it for a short while), yet Tormod can (almost) single-handedly clear the south in 1-8.

Black Knight > Muarim > Nailah, IMO.