Ranking vs. Efficiency

[Cesternino53]

Hi all, I'm new to this forum and new to the more advanced aspects of Fire Emblem. I've been reading through many topics, and I basically understand the differences between ranked run and an efficiency run. My question is threefold:

1) is there any listing of what the exact parameters are for getting an S Rank in each mode? Max turns, minimum amount of money/exp and so on.

2) Likewise, for efficiency runs, is there a listing of the record number of turns that each chapter has been completed in?

3) Tier lists for efficiency runs do not apply to ranked runs because several of the the ranked categories contradict each other. That being said, how do I determine who is best to use for ranked runs?

Thanks!

[rigadoog]

http://www.serenesfo...t/fe7/rank.html

ask someone experienced

ask someone experienced

Edited August 10, 2011 by rigadoog

[Lord Raven]

http://serenesforest.net/fe7/rank.html <- should give everything for rankings... and gonna put this out there that EVERYTHING contributes to funds rank, so essentially you lose money off selling a White Gem, for example, because a White Gem is worth 20K to the funds rank but you sell it for 10K... therefore you lose 10K. The only reason you'd ever want to sell things is if you have the Silver Card or that Red Gem early on.

Only tier list I could find. dondon or somebody also has an FE7 ranked run playthrough if you want to check that out; he completed it, but he didn't post the last couple of chapters.

[Radiant Dragon]

1) The main site should have all of that info.

2) There are logs users have done for efficient runs if you search through the forums a little, that you should be able to use for reference.

3) Characters higher on efficiency lists will usually still serve you well in ranked runs, as long as you take into account things like the EXP rank (using a larger group of units, and getting the most out of staff users) and Funds rank (when it exists).

[Geriba]

3) Tier lists for efficiency runs do not apply to ranked runs because several of the the ranked categories contradict each other. That being said, how do I determine who is best to use for ranked runs?

It's a bit more complicated than that. The relevant categories of Fire Emblem 7's ranking system are Tactics (turns consumed), Funds (net worth accrued by endgame), and Experience (total experience points acquired). While it's true that these three categories overlap, "contradict" isn't the right word; rather, they compete for player interest, and, depending on the point in a given playthrough, one may take temporary priority over another.

Though it might be tempting to label Efficiency runs as "cleaner" than Ranked runs thanks to the lack of overlap, it's worth mentioning that Efficiency tiering runs into its own share of problems, most notably that it doesn't measure true efficiency, but rather approximate efficiency- which sounds counterintuitive, to say the least. Let me explain. One can imagine a hypothetical "optimal run" wherein the lowest number of turns conceivably needed to complete the game is achieved. In evaluating such a run, tiers are unnecessary: each character divides into "Used" and "Not Used," any any distinctions within these tiers becomes pretty arbitrary. Consequently, Efficiency tiering doesn't deal with "fastest possible," but rather "very fast." As you can imagine, drawing the line gets tricky.

This is one of the reasons why I personally prefer Ranked tiering discussion: it establishes parameters that can be reached with a number of play styles and rosters, whereas Efficiency tiering approaches an "optimal singularity."

Edited August 10, 2011 by Doomguy

[Lord Raven]

Well put, that's probably the best way I've actually heard to put it; I was weakly arguing your point in the FE10 tier thread and that's exactly why I split off and made my own tier list which ends up drawing the line between "used" and "not used" a bit clearer, especially because it's splitting a game off into parts and showing, basically, the characters that will be "used" and "not used."

Edited August 10, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

Minor nitpick: EXP rank would be more accurately described as experience gained, rather than levels gained.

[Geriba]

Minor nitpick: EXP rank would be more accurately described as experience gained, rather than levels gained.

Nice catch; I probably had FE4 on my mind at the time. Corrected.

[Mekkah]

The answer to who to use in a ranked run is: everyone. You have to cycle through practically your entire team to fulfill the EXP rank. You can promote some juggernauts to help with dealing tough enemies and fulfilling tactics requirements, but most of the time you will be gumming enemies to death with underleveled units.

[General Banzai]

The answer to who to use in a ranked run is: everyone. You have to cycle through practically your entire team to fulfill the EXP rank. You can promote some juggernauts to help with dealing tough enemies and fulfilling tactics requirements, but most of the time you will be gumming enemies to death with underleveled units.

It's hardly that strict.

Just don't spam Marcus early game and you'll be fine.

[Mekkah]

You have to gain 45200 EXP throughout the game. A core team of 10 units getting to 20/20 gets you only 390 levels, and that's being generous with how high their end result is. From my calculations, on average every PC needs 10 levels, including prepromotes and lolAthos. It might not be as bad as spending the whole game setting up kills for weak units, but "just don't spam Marcus" is probably not enough either.

[Paper Jam]

You have to gain 45200 EXP throughout the game. A core team of 10 units getting to 20/20 gets you only 390 levels, and that's being generous with how high their end result is. From my calculations, on average every PC needs 10 levels, including prepromotes and lolAthos. It might not be as bad as spending the whole game setting up kills for weak units, but "just don't spam Marcus" is probably not enough either.

It depends on whether you're playing on Normal Mode or Hard Mode, too. If you're playing on Normal Mode, the game is rather generous with PCs who defeat enemies of lower level than themselves, but Hard Mode is not.

Go to http://serenesforest.net/fe7/calc.html and scroll down to "Experience" for more information.

From my experience in playing EHM, it killed my Experience score to use promoted units to defeat nonpromoted enemies in chapters 28 through 30. Even in those last few chapters, it's necessary to use your underleveled units, or else your Experience ranking might drop to 4 stars.

[Cesternino53]

Thanks so much for the responses everyone; it's certainly becoming clearer to me now. I have to completely restart FE7 and FE8, which sucks, but I figure I'll make the best of it and do a ranked or efficient run through for at least the normal modes (Of the hard modes, I've only ever beaten Lyn's, so I think I should probably play EHM and HHM through normally before attempting any challenges). Any tips for a ranked playthrough of LNM-->ENM?

[samthedigital]

Try to finish chapters quickly instead of aiming for the experience rank. I wouldn't suggest ignoring it or anything, but make sure it is secondary to completing chapters quickly (go to every optional chapter though). Secondly, Linus's version of chapter 23 is ideal, so make sure that the lords are above 50 also. Plan out how many turns to arena abuse. It's possible to spend around 100 turns on HHM, but I am not sure how it works in NM since the turn requirements for a five star are different. Lastly, Kenneth's version of chapter 25 is probably better than the other option, so neglect one of Bartre or Dorcas to meet the requirements effectively. On a side note, I would also suggest not ranking LNM and ENM in the same run. It's sort of pointless to rank Lyn's mode and any other mode together.

[Paper Jam]

Try to finish chapters quickly instead of aiming for the experience rank. I wouldn't suggest ignoring it or anything, but make sure it is secondary to completing chapters quickly (go to every optional chapter though). Secondly, Linus's version of chapter 23 is ideal, so make sure that the lords are above 50 also. Plan out how many turns to arena abuse. It's possible to spend around 100 turns on HHM, but I am not sure how it works in NM since the turn requirements for a five star are different. Lastly, Kenneth's version of chapter 25 is probably better than the other option, so neglect one of Bartre or Dorcas to meet the requirements effectively. On a side note, I would also suggest not ranking LNM and ENM in the same run. It's sort of pointless to rank Lyn's mode and any other mode together.

I disagree about Kenneth's chapter; Jerme's chapter gives you more enemies (read: more experience) and has a higher "maximum number of turns" for the highest rank in Tactics. (On normal mode, Kenneth allows up to 14 turns for 5-star Tactics; Jerme allows 22.)

The only advantages that Kenneth's chapter has over Jerme's, in my opinion, are that you can get a Guiding Ring instead of a Hero's Crest, and (only advantageous if you like Karel and/or dislike Harken) Karel is much easier to recruit in Kenneth's chapter.

On the Tactics vs. Experience issue, I agree with santhedigital that you're more likely to lose points in Tactics than Experience, but if you're one turn away from beating a chapter, there are enemies on the map, and you're two turns shy of the maximum for 5-star Tactics, you should spend a turn clearing out those enemies. Only leave enemies standing if your Tactics ranking would suffer otherwise.

On ENM, don't use Marcus; you don't need him.

While it may be wise to complete some chapters ahead of schedule to "save up for a rainy day," there aren't very many "rainy days" in Eliwood's tale. (The only one that comes to my mind at the moment is chapter 26x [which you CANNOT complete in 10 turns], unless you're inclined to abuse the arena in chapter 16x, 20, or 23. [incidentally, chapters 20 and 23 are the best chapters for arena abuse, as you have Ninian.])

Edited August 14, 2011 by Paper Jam

[Aquilae]

You need to gain 550 more EXP on Normal Mode and 750 more on Hard Mode to meet the 5* EXP requirement for Jerme's chapter, as opposed to Kenneth's chapter. Jerme's chapter is also a rout, so you have less control over your turncount. Jerme's chapter also has tougher promoted enemies, and they're all spread out, so it's an uphill task trying to finish it in time with the snow getting in your way. Kenneth's is more straightforward, only problematic parts are the Purge Druid and the swarm of Wyverns near the left entrance.

On an unrelated note, Matthew and Legault get quite a big experience bonus since they're thieves, so they're good choices for buffering up your EXP Rank. They retain the EXP bonus as Assassins, but I don't recommend promoting them since the Fell Contract is worth 50k, and you'd be taking a huge hit to Funds.

Both Priscilla and Serra are great for buffering the EXP rank as well, since they have an almost unlimited pool of Staff EXP from Torch, Barrier or the healing staffs. You can buy Barriers at the Kinship's Bond (Eubans / Heath / Isadora chapter) secret shop and just keep on spamming them in subsequent chapters for lots of EXP.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Aquilae

[Paper Jam]

On an unrelated note, Matthew and Legault get quite a big experience bonus since they're thieves, so they're good choices for buffering up your EXP Rank. They retain the EXP bonus as Assassins, but I don't recommend promoting them since the Fell Contract is worth 50k, and you'd be taking a huge hit to Funds.

Both Priscilla and Serra are great for buffering the EXP rank as well, since they have an almost unlimited pool of Staff EXP from Torch, Barrier or the healing staffs. You can buy Barriers at the Kinship's Bond (Eubans / Heath / Isadora chapter) secret shop and just keep on spamming them in subsequent chapters for lots of EXP.

Speaking of thieves, Serra, and Priscilla... Once you promote Serra and Priscilla, they get the same EXP bonus that thieves and assassins have, so you have a good incentive to promote them and use them in combat as well. And it's more economical to use Guiding Rings on them than to use a Fell Contract anyway...

[samthedigital]

On the Tactics vs. Experience issue, I agree with santhedigital that you're more likely to lose points in Tactics than Experience, but if you're one turn away from beating a chapter, there are enemies on the map, and you're two turns shy of the maximum for 5-star Tactics, you should spend a turn clearing out those enemies. Only leave enemies standing if your Tactics ranking would suffer otherwise.

It really depends on the map for this, but most of the time the arena proves to be more beneficial since the experience per turn ratio can go up to 170 experience per turn (on HHM, so ENM should have a higher output and less downtime since 170 doesn't happen every turn because characters need to heal) while other chapters don't have this kind of experience output.

Edited August 14, 2011 by samthedigital

[dondon151]

The only real issue with arena abusing is the likelihood of a unit dying due to bad luck. Not a problem on emulator, but you'll probably end up giving up on a couple of fights on a cart.

[samthedigital]

It's not really an issue when ranking ENM though as compared to HHM.

[Paper Jam]

The only real issue with arena abusing is the likelihood of a unit dying due to bad luck. Not a problem on emulator, but you'll probably end up giving up on a couple of fights on a cart.

Not even a problem with a GBA and cartridge, since you can burn RNs until your opponent wields a weapon inferior to yours. (And you can soft-reset the game after finding out who your opponent is without starting the fight.)

I generally use sword users in the arena, and burn RNs until they face axe users, since axes are inaccurate anyway.