The Resistance 2

[Zanarkin]

Just because this mission needs two cards to fail, doesn't mean I'm going to support a mission that has who I believe to be a Spy on it after we've already lost 2.

But what if the others you trust for the most part...

I'm not sure anymore...

[Radiant Dragon]

I'm not exactly trusting of eclipse, Kevin or Kay, either.

[zorbees]

RD, who do you trust, and why?

If you had to guess, who sabotaged missions 2 and 3?

[Radiant Dragon]

I don't trust anyone, really. I just have people I don't trust more than others... Although, I think it's less likely for people to forget about games they are Mafia (or Mafia equivalent) in, so I'm not very suspicious about Darros at all.

As for who I believe sabotaged the missions, if I had to guess... I'm not extremely suspicious of Slayer or Paper, but I am suspicious of Kevin and Proto. Snike too, but that's because I don't know why JB voted yes to 2.2.

If I had to choose one, I'd say Kevin on 2.5 and Proto on 3.5.

[Snike]

I trust half the team as far as I can throw them.

No thank you.

[eclipse]

Hey, I'm light!

I'm not fully trusting of Kevin. . .

[Paperblade]

A few questions before my thoughts:

1. Do you agree that earlier proposals (such as those for Mission 1) are less important due to lack of information?

2. Do you agree that voting habits in earlier proposals are less important due to lack of information?

3. On another note, do you agree that voting habits in early proposals within a missions (such as x.1) are less important? If so, why?

[Paperblade]

Also I would like to enact a new policy of explaining why you distrust people on missions that you are downvoting.

[eclipse]

Curse thee for hitting my weakness~!

1. Do you agree that earlier proposals (such as those for Mission 1) are less important due to lack of information?

No, all proposals are important. Just because we lack information doesn't mean we should put people on willy-nilly. Discussion about what people think is always important!

2. Do you agree that voting habits in earlier proposals are less important due to lack of information?

Maybe for the very first one, and that's it. By the time the second mission rolls around, there's information out there.

3. On another note, do you agree that voting habits in early proposals within a missions (such as x.1) are less important? If so, why?

Yes and no. Due to wiggle room, it's possible to turn down an earlier proposal, precisely because there's at least three more out there that could turn up better. However, due to the current state of the game, we need to consider the people behind the proposals, or it's very likely that we'll lose.

I'm voting no on Kay's proposal, because I do not fully trust Kevin, even after that role PM thing. The last person that did that was Proto in Itemafia, and we all see how that turned out.

[Snike]

1. Do you agree that earlier proposals (such as those for Mission 1) are less important due to lack of information?

They are less important overall, but are still critical for spyhunting, IMO.

2. Do you agree that voting habits in earlier proposals are less important due to lack of information?

To an extent, yes, since we had that whole next 4 leaders downvote method solidly in effect. That and we've had a few subs, so reads on previous users might be off from the truth. There are some exceptions to the rule, though, such as Kiku-Ichispygi, who I believe to be versed in the art of espionage, thanks to the upvoting 50% of the non-mandatory proposals. That's just asking for a blitz if you're Resistance.

3. On another note, do you agree that voting habits in early proposals within a missions (such as x.1) are less important? If so, why?

They're less important for 1 and 2, since we use those proposals to spyhunt.

[Paperblade]

Also I would like zorbees to explain why he said

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27612&view=findpost&p=1673964

wrt 1.4 then excluded Rein from 3.5.

[Paperblade]

Also, summary up to post 185 (up to 2.1's proposal failing)

1.1

Mission Proposal 1.1 by Spykitty

Team: Spykitty, JBCWK, Kiku-Ichimonji, Paperkitty

Yes: Kiku-Ichimonji

No: Spykitty, JBCWK, zorbees, Balcerzak, Kirsche, Radiant Kitty, Luka Mefeline, SlayerX, Paperkitty, Psych

Result: Yes - 1, No - 10

Proposal Fails

Darros requested people start talking, and Bal suggested his strategy with a slight modification from zorbees. Proto voices concerns, stating he doesn't know if this strategy is a good idea and says the first mission doesn't matter, which puts people such as myself and JB into a tiff. When the proposal fails, Kevin says he called the mass no votes before JB proposes.

Mission Proposal 1.2 by JBCWK

Team: JBCWK, Balcerzak, Paperkitty, Psych

Yes: zorbees, Luka Mefeline, Kiku-Ichimonji

No: Spykitty, JBCWK, Balcerzak, Kirsche, Radiant Kitty, SlayerX, Paperkitty, Psych

Result: Yes - 3, No - 8

Proposal Fails

Slayer has some confusion about missions, and Psych questions a repeat of myself and JB, and then me in specific (JB later says this is based off of people who have been contributing, but iirc Psych didn't talk much til this mission). Kevin goofs, forgetting that Spies are aware of all other Spies (Kevin's reasoning for a mission 1 sabotage being bad is that one spy could sabotage, out, and direct the others).

Mission Proposal 1.3 by zorbees

Team: Balcerzak, Kirsche, Radiant Kitty, SlayerX

Yes: Kiku-Ichimonji

No: Spykitty, JBCWK, zorbees, Balcerzak, Kirsche, Radiant Kitty, Luka M, SlayerX, Paperkitty, Psych

Result: Yes - 1, No - 10

Proposal Fails

I ask why three people not on the team voted yes, and zorbees gives me a nonanswer (http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27612&view=findpost&p=1665321). When I point out he didn't actually answer my question, he ignores it. There is no more discussion that mission, and it's voted down by everyone but Proto.

Mission Proposal 1.4 by Balcerzak

Team: zorbees, Balcerzak, Luka Mefeline, SlayerX

Yes: Darros, JBCWK, zorbees, Balcerzak, Kirsche, Kiku-Ichimonji, SlayerX

No: Radiant Kitty, Luka M, Paperkitty, Psych

Result: Yes - 7, No - 4

Proposal Passes.

RD asks if anyone else thinks Bal, zorbees, and Rein are spies. Since JB and I are on three missions in a row, Psych thinks that Proto's yesvotes make us suspect. This is actually a host error resulting causing 1.3's team to appear the same as 1.2. In any case, Slayer echoes zorbees RD's thoughts, and I point out spies sending multiple spies is dumb. zorbees calls Proto an idiot for mindlessly upvoting missions, and Proto says he can't tell the difference without info. I give him numbers on upvoting missions you aren't on. Darros adds that he doesn't think the spies will sabotage this mission if given the chance since it makes it more likely they will be found out. Bal says he's been getting different vibes from Rein, and almost to spite RD, then sends all three of them on a mission plus Slayer. RD asks why Rein upvoted a mission, and he echoes Darros's sentiment. zorbees says he didn't think it would go through so he's willing to stir up discussion and questioning, and states that he thinks this fourth one will be good for finding vote patterns. Slayer announces he will be yessing the mission, and I say I will be downvoting it due to me not being on it reduces its chances of success FMPOV and that I distrust Rein. Darros repeats that he doesn't think the spies will sabotage, and Slayer points out there would still be 3 more spies.

Then we learn the mission went ahead. I make a post calling out Proto for stifling discussion by upvoting for no reason, and then state I believe the mission will be sabotaged, since the upvotes mean FMPOV that the Spies liked the mission. Proto argues with me about the bit directed at him and states that he thinks zorbees is suspicious, despite having just upvoted a mission that he's on. I point out that it only would requires two idiots for spies to force missions (like they did).

Proto goes "Then obviously Darros, JB, Kevin, and I are spies" (which doesn't actually make sense, none of them were on that mission). I state that I think Rein's no vote makes him least suspicious, and question him about his upvote. He gives me a nonanswer and plays coy (On an unrelated note: STOP DOING THIS, PROTO, IT JUST MAKES ME THINK YOU ARE SCUM). RD points out that Proto is being stupid. Tables announces that Rein has been idling and is inactive.

Then we get our succeed results. RD and I point out that due to Rein's idling, he could still be scum. JB adds that the sabotage chances mean there could still be a scum.

Proto finally answers my question, it's the same reasoning that he doesn't think spies will sabotage. zorbees disagrees, and Darros disagrees with zorbees--if we don't know a spy by mission 3, we're hosed (hey...). zorbees gives numbers as though we would instantly know who is sabotaging, apparently a 33% chance of success is worse than our current 7% or whatever. Proto agrees with him, but then points out zorbees seems to be trying hard to convince us he's town. zorbees's response is "yes only a spy would play this aggressively." eclipse subs in for Rein.

JB asks why we think Rein is a spy, and Kevin gives a stupid answer (no, it's not because he yes'd a mission, it's me and RD using the logic that since we know we ourselves (not each other) are non-Spy, there must be a Spy). Proto argues in Rein's defense.

My thoughts: several people stated that they did not think the spies would sabotage the first mission, that it was a bad idea, etc.

Darros does pretty much nothing.

JB seems to act fairly pro-town.

zorbees acts pro-town at first, imo

Bal acts very pro-town

Kevin's only contribution afaik is his screwup with the role PMs

RD needs to stop hiveminding with me plzkthx

Rein does nothing

Proto yesvotes everything ever and is called an idiot by everyone

Slayer seems to be more cautious, stating that he doesn't think spies would cooperate

Paperblade gives numbers and freaks out about 1.4 being sabotaged (and then it wasn't)

Psych doesn't really do much iirc

My thoughts as of rereading up to this point:

In 1.4, the spy was either Rein and idled, or cooperated to spite people saying they would sabotage (I think I was most vocal about this).

[Paperblade]

More tomorrow, I have an 8AM class and it's midnight

[Kriemhild]

According to Proto's chart, I voted for something I didn't.

You're talking about Mission 1.2, right? Well, everyone knows you subbed in for Reinfleche, so I don't think it's a big deal

A few questions before my thoughts:

1. Do you agree that earlier proposals (such as those for Mission 1) are less important due to lack of information?

Yes. Because when players post their thoughts so early, they likely don't have solid reasoning for them. I used to think zorbees is scummy, and now I really think he's Resistance. They're still worth looking into, but they shouldn't be taken too seriously.

2. Do you agree that voting habits in earlier proposals are less important due to lack of information?

Kinda, I guess. Players would vote based on what they think of the team, but Resistance members wouldn't know enough to make their opinion so valuable. Spies could therefore, easily make up excuses on what they voted, because no one expected anyone to actually be confident about the teams.

3. On another note, do you agree that voting habits in early proposals within a missions (such as x.1) are less important? If so, why?

YES. I realized that zak's idea probably wasn't a very good one. If five people defaulted to No, the odds of the mission going through would be very slim. Since there's a very little chance that they would pass, Spies would have no trouble blending in. Most players would vote No, and those that vote Yes would be questioned about it. I think we should abandon zak's plan entirely now.

Also, Paper, I only upvoted every proposal in Mission One, and a few others later when I thought the team was good. It may have been idiotic, but as I pointed out earlier, I wanted the Spies to think they actually have a chance to turn the vote around by voting Yes. I had hoped it would discourage everyone from voting No, where we'd learn nothing. And obviously, I wouldn't go and tell the Spies why I'm voting Yes in Mission 1, so I waited until after that to explain myself.

[Kriemhild]

RD, Psych, Clipsey!, Darros.....

[Kriemhild]

Kirsche, SlayerX, Clipsey!, Darros.....

[Kriemhild]

PAPER, HELP ME OUT HERE

[Paperblade]

2.x missions

Mission Proposal 2.1 by Kirsche

Team: zorbees, Kirsche, Radiant Kitty, SlayerX, Paperkitty

Yes: Balcerzak

No: Darros, JBCWK, zorbees, Kirsche, Radiant Kitty, ClipseyKitty, Kiku-Ichimonji, SlayerX, Paperkitty, Psych

Result: Yes - 1, No - 10

Proposal Fails.

RD asks Bal why he yesvoted, Bal responds that he has a good feeling about zorbees+slayer (which is why he put them on that mission) and Paperblade.

Mission Proposal 2.2 by Radiant Kitty

Team: Darros, Kirsche, Balcerzak, Radiant Kitty, Paperkitty

Yes: JCBWK

No: Darros, zorbees, Balcerzak, Kirsche, Radiant Kitty, ClipseyKitty, Kiku-Ichimonji, SlayerX, Paperkitty, Psych

Result: Yes - 1, No - 10

Proposal Fails.

Bal asks if Darros has done anything. No, he has not. eclipse gives her thoughts on the mission as well, and seems to trust RD/me, and maybe Bal? Thinks Kevin has been busy.

Mission Proposal 2.3 by ClipseyKitty

Team: zorbees, Balcerzak, Radiant Kitty, Kiku-Ichimonji, Paperkitty

Yes: SlayerX, Paperkitty

No: Darros, JCBWK, zorbees, Balcerzak, Kirsche, Radiant Kitty, ClipseyKitty, Kiku-Ichimonji, Psych

Result: Yes - 2, No - 9

Proposal Fails.

RD says he's still uncertain about zorbees/eclipse, but trusts Bal more. Psych asks why it says RD downvoted his own mission, that's because he did. Proto says he doesn't know if we're trying to send a mission with no spies or send a mission with a lot of spies, but is voting no as per Bal's earlier suggestion.

JB points out zorbees has been quiet since mission 1, which makes him uneasy, and still doesn't trust Proto. zorbees pops in to say he agrees with Proto, and later adds people should talk more about their opinions on missions.

Mission Proposal 2.4 by Kiku-Ichimonji

Team: Snikitty, zorbees, Pariah, Kiku-Ichimonji, SlayerX

Yes: Pariah, Radiant Kitty, Clipseykitty

No: Darros, Snikitty, zorbees ,Kirsche, Kiku-Ichimonji, SlayerX, Paperkitty, arachnidsGrip

Result: Yes - 3, No - 8

Proposal Fails.

Slayer says some stuff that I think is odd (http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27612&view=findpost&p=1684281). Proto questions Slayer for upvoting 2.3, Slayer said he wanted to incite discussion. RD, eclipse, and Slayer wonder why zorbees said he would vote no after saying he voted yes, and Bal requests a sub, as does JB. Kay is subbed in for Bal. JB gives his thoughts and still doesn't seem to trust Proto/zorbees, Slayer also doesn't trust them. Snike subs in for JB.

Mission Proposal 2.5 by SlayerX

Team: kirsche, Snikitty, Radiant Kitty, SlayerX, Paperkitty

Proposal autopasses as the 5th proposal.

eclipse is not happy about being forced to accept. Slayer wants to include Snike, RD, and Kay, but needs zorbees to point out he should include himself. eclipse tries to start discussion about the previous 2.x missions. Kevin distrusts Darros and Proto. Slayer considers himself, RD, Bal's sub (he says Snike but he meant Kay), JB (Snike), Paper. Psych suggests Eclipse, Slayer, Kevin, Paper, and Snike, Kevin wants eclipse dropped for RD or Kay. zorbees disagrees with me being on the mission. Slayer suggests the final team (which RD suggested and Kevin/Snike approved), Psych is cautious about the final team.

3.x missions

Mission Proposal 3.1 by Paperkitty

Team: zorbees, Pariah, Radiant Kitty, Paperkitty, arachnidsGrip

Yes: zorbees, Radiant Kitty, Kiku-Ichimonji

No: Darros, Snikitty, Pariah, Kirsche, Clipseykitty, SlayerX, Paperkitty, arachnidsGrip

Result: Yes - 3, No - 8

Proposal Fails.

Slayer intends to downvote because RD and I were on the failed mission, RD points out by this logic, we shouldn't trust Slayer. Proto states there was only one spy in 2.5 since only one sabotaged, I point out that isn't necessarily true, just likely. RD says this is a WIFOM, then says he wants Darros to talk or get a sub. I point out 2.4 only had 3 upvotes, meaning it might have been acceptable. zorbees says he doesn't like the mission, but will upvote it anyway (what). eclipse says she upvoted 2.4. I say I think Kevin is scum because 2.4 went down, forgetting that Kevin was not the leader for 2.5...

Darros claims he forgot this game was going on.

Mission Proposal 3.2 by arachnidsGrip

Team: Kirsche, Pariah, Radiant Kitty, Paperkitty, arachnidsGrip

Yes: Kiku-Ichimonji,

No: Darros, Snikitty, zorbees, Kay, Kirsche, Radiant Kitty, ClipseyKitty, SlayerX, Paperkitty, arachnidsGrip,

Result: Yes - 1, No - 10

Proposal Fails.

Psych wants to send himself, Kay, Darros (the fuck), and maybe Paper. RD says he doesn't trust Kay since she hasn't talked since subbing in, Psych says Bal was super pro-town so she's probably town. Kay comes in to say she was busy. Proto says he trusts people on 1.4 because sabotaging was a good move, as zorbees pointed out. Proto says he trusts Bal because he didn't try to claim being cleared (like zorbees) because of it. I point out FMPOV that at least one of the 4 on 1.4 is a spy, and since one of the 4 downvotes was Rein who was on the mission, that means it wasn't me/RD/Psych/Rein spy downvoting good mission. zorbees says he doesn't get the logic and one of the people downvoting the mission could be a spy, and points out Proto has had a complete turnaround in logic and ideals, and calls it suspicious. Proto says he thinks zorbees could have cooperated just to clear himself and says the spies should have sabotaged.

RD asks Psych why he wants Darros on the mission, and Psych says he can't remember. RD likes Psych's new proposal, so it's proposed. zorbees says he's voting no, Darros says he doesn't like this mission since 3/5 of us were on 2.5. Snike doesn't trust Kevin, and RD brings up Kevin's mistake with the PMs. Slayer thinks it was an honest mistake, RD/zorbees draw parallels to Itemafia. Snike and I also say this is suspect, Kevin says the logic is bullshit.

Mission Proposal 3.3 by Darros

Team: Snikitty, ClipseyKitty, SlayerX, Paperkitty, arachnidsGrip,

Yes:

No: Darros, Snikitty, zorbees, Kay, Kirsche, Radiant Kitty, ClipseyKitty, Kiku-Ichimonji, SlayerX, Paperkitty, arachnidsGrip,

Result: Yes - 0, No - 11

Proposal Fails.

eclipse questions Proto for upvoting 3.2 and seems to distrust Psych. I point out Proto has been doing this constantly. Darros wants to put Paper and eclipse on the mission, and zorbees responds with "voting no". Darros basically facepalms. RD asks why Darros trusts eclipse. Proto doesn't get why people distrust Kevin, and the only difference between 3.2 and 3.1 was Kevin vs. zorbees, so he voted yes. eclipse likes to RD and Paper's posts on the role PM thing, Proto says his role PM thing in itemafia was an honest mistake since he didn't read the rules. RD points out this doesn't really make sense, but adds he's not really sure about Kevin (and claims he forgot to vote in 3.2). eclipse says that out of Slayer, Kevin, Paper, Snike, Radiant, she is least suspicious of Paper and RD. Darros says he is getting town vibes from eclipse, and RD asks about Rein. Darros says idling gives him a null read. zorbees lols@people trusting me and says I've done absolutely nothing. Proto backtracks and says he claimed no role PM to make things interesting. RD calls BS. eclipse says there are probably better ways of generating discussion. RD asks Darros to explain why he trusts people. Slayer asks why Darros didn't include himself, and RD calls Darros a spy. Snike says he trusts Paper/RD more than Slayer/Kevin. zorbees thinks Paper, Darros, and eclipse are spies. Proto says he has a null read on Kevin. Proto trusts zorbees.

Mission Proposal 3.4 by Snikitty

Team: Snikitty, zorbees, Kay, Radiant Kitty, arachnidsGrip,

Yes: Kirsche, Radiant Kitty,

No: Darros, Snikitty, zorbees, Kay, ClipseyKitty, Kiku-Ichimonji, SlayerX, Paperkitty, arachnidsGrip,

Result: Yes - 2, No - 9

Proposal Fails.

People ask Snike why he's sending. Psych thinks Snike could be a spy trying to pass the sabotage off on him or Paper. Snike thinks that Darros, Proto, Slayer, and Rein are spies. Slayer trusts Snike, but not zorbees/RD. RD doesn't really get the Bal trust. zorbees doesn't understand why people suspect Slayer, and reminds people he was on 1.4. zorbees and Proto think that a mission like 2.4 would be good. RD disagrees because he distrusts Proto. zorbees says that if most people agree on a mission, it probably has a spy on it.

Mission Proposal 3.5 by zorbees

Team: zorbees, Pariah, SlayerX, Radiant Dragon, Kiku-Ichimonji

Proposal autopasses as the 5th proposal.

Darros doesn't trust zorbees. Proto posts a tl;dr on why he voted no (http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27612&view=findpost&p=1701183), and lots of people post their thoughts. Read it yourself, I'm too lazy to summarize at this point. zorbees wants to know why RD upvoted 2.4, RD says it had no Rein. zorbees wants to know how people would feel if he left himself off the mission. RD isn't sure, Proto thinks it's a bad idea. Snike says he downvoted 3.4 because of the amount of support it had. Slayer that's WIFOM, spies could support a non-spy mission just so people downvote it. zorbees proposes.

Sabotage'd.

zorbees, why did you change your mind between your upvote in 1.2 and your comment on 2.5? And then, in 3.1, you had repeatedly stated before and after the mission that you distrusted me, but upvoted it anyway.

[Paperblade]

Sorry Proto, was rereading.

I don't really know if I trust zorbees anymore, but I may just be mad that he thinks I've contributed nothing and seems to be ignoring me.

[Kriemhild]

The thing in Itemafia wasn't an honest mistake. It was purely intentional. However, I actually didn't finish reading the rules at that time (but I read the bit about Town not getting PMs) so my point was that I was telling the truth about me posting before I read the rules, even though it wasn't in the way that I tried to fool you guys into thinking. Anyways, Itemafia is in the past, so I'll just focus on this now.

And Paper, please help me out here

[Paperblade]

Anyway, let me explain why:

zorbees said several times he thought the spies would sabotage 1.x if given the chance, which would mean that Bal/Slayer are clear to him. Typically, people who insist that they are clear based off of a WIFOM situation like this (keep in mind most people thought the Spies would not sabotage) aren't. However, 4 people downvoted 1.4, and one of them was on the mission. This means that spies liked the mission. Why?

Well, let's see here:

Rein, RD, Paper, Psych downvoted the mission. However, if all 4 of us were spies, we would have said yes because Rein WAS on the mission. This means that at least one Spy said yes to the mission. zorbees ignored this when I brought it up earlier, and his response was:

paper, 4 people downvoted it. Some of those 4 people could have been spies.

EDIT: I'm not following your 1.4 logic either. The spies didn't know whether or not the mission would pass and if their votes would matter. You can't say "The spies would upvote the mission because it would pass anyways and they want to blend in" because the spies wouldn't know if it would pass if they downvoted.

This second paragraph doesn't actually make sense and doesn't follow what I was saying (this is a trend I noticed any time zorbees responded to me). My point was that if {Rein, RD, Paper, Psych} were Spies, we would have upvoted because REIN WAS ON 1.4 AND COULD SABOTAGE, JESUS CHRIST. In fact, your own logic admits my point: Even if me/Psych/whatever wee Spies, why the fuck would my scumbuddies upvote that mission if there were no Spies?

The first paragraph is reasonable, but that wasn't my point. My point was at least one of the members on 1.4 is a Spy, which zorbees has been downplaying all game, insisting that he is clear, that Spies would sabotage 1.4, etc.

zorbees was suspicious of Proto's turnabout in logic and ideals as late as 3.2, yet put him on 3.5. Why?

Also this game really annoys me because I feel like I'm not in a much better position than we were in Mission 1.

[Paperblade]

uh...

Honestly, the only people I trust are me and RD. Sorry.

[Paperblade]

Anyway, I'm gonna go check if there is a pattern with who put who on missions.

[Kriemhild]

THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT

This operation has reached its final stages

You know what to do now. Or, at least, you SHOULD know what to do now, because I can't seriously be the only one thinking about it. zak and Joshaymin are gone, so you, zorbees, and MAYBE Snike are all I have left.

Don't leave me alone, please, Paper

I might have to post mine earlier than planned then...

[Paperblade]

Proto, why do you have to act like a maniac in every game you're in