Florete Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I think we should consider making Lucia free. She's around for 1 chapter until part 4, like geoffrey, where she's mediocre due to her terrible strength growth. Lucia wasn't made free because she's still a reasonable draft for help in part 4. She's around for two pre-4-E maps and can be made good immediately with BEXP. 2-2 is done so that she has some more value on top of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 If Geoffrey was made free for the CRK chapters for players to avoid penalty, I don't see why Lucia shouldn't be free for 2-2 for the same reason. You get one free unit and Leanne is already free. There are 7 draftable units for the map so everyone can get one of them, allowing everyone to have two units + Leanne with which to complete the map. That is reasonable enough and still gives Lucia value as the best character there. 2-3 has only 6 characters in total and 3-9 has only 7, Astrid being one in both, hardly someone who can do much even with one other helper. And again, Lucia is still valuable as a part 4 draftee while Geoffrey isn't, so keeping her in the drafting pool is more worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilmik11 Posted August 10, 2011 Author Share Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) If Geoffrey was made free for the CRK chapters for players to avoid penalty, I don't see why Lucia shouldn't be free for 2-2 for the same reason. Because unlike Geoffrey, Lucia can be useful during part 4 and endgame, whereas Geoffrey is too underlevelled to be even considered into Endgame. Plus, Lucia can solo 2-2, and Geoffrey can't solo 2-3. Lucia being free during that chapter would basically make her a useless pick, as 2-2 is really her time to shine. Edited August 10, 2011 by Lilmik11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Because unlike Geoffrey, Lucia can be useful during part 4 and endgame, whereas Geoffrey is too underlevelled to be even considered into Endgame. Plus, Lucia can solo 2-2, and Geoffrey can't solo 2-3. Lucia being free during that chapter would basically make her a useless pick, as 2-2 is really her time to shine. Geoffrey can definitely solo 2-3. Unlike Lucia in 2-2, Geoffrey is practically required for 2-3 unless you drafted every other CRK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Geoffrey can definitely solo 2-3. Unlike Lucia in 2-2, Geoffrey is practically required for 2-3 unless you drafted every other CRK. Not true at all. I once finished 2-3 in 7 turns with only Kieran drafted, as he can Ohko the door with the silver poleaxe. Geoffrey didn't see combat once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Not true at all. I once finished 2-3 in 7 turns with only Kieran drafted, as he can Ohko the door with the silver poleaxe. Geoffrey didn't see combat once. I mentioned him earlier, didn't think to mention him again. He's the only one I can see doing it alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) Plus, Lucia can solo 2-2, and Geoffrey can't solo 2-3. Lucia being free during that chapter would basically make her a useless pick, as 2-2 is really her time to shine. Wow didn't see Rfof's post. Ignore this. Edited August 11, 2011 by Xanderdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 (edited) Because unlike Geoffrey, Lucia can be useful during part 4 and endgame, whereas Geoffrey is too underlevelled to be even considered into Endgame. Plus, Lucia can solo 2-2, and Geoffrey can't solo 2-3. Lucia being free during that chapter would basically make her a useless pick, as 2-2 is really her time to shine. There's always the crapton of BEXP to backup on. At 4-5, you can easily BEXP Geoffrey to lvl --/20/1, give Paragon and call it a day. I don't garantee you won't be relying on dodging 50%~ Hits and proc'cing Sol, though. Thanks to this, I actually got Geoffrey to be useful at Endgame. You also can't just handwave the way he helps you out at the CRK's chapters. I don't get why people who support the old rules don't care that 3-3 has the free unit. I feel guilty of being one of the first to support the new rule system. But as DarkCybaster once reminded me, it makes draft very...similiar. So suddenly, everyone's using similiar strategies throughout Part 1. It's like everyone gets turncounts under ~250 turns. It's not bad, it just doesn't feel right. The previous drafts required you to draft with more thought. Edited August 11, 2011 by Angru Mainya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I feel guilty of being one of the first to support the new rule system. But as DarkCybaster once reminded me, it makes draft very...similiar. So suddenly, everyone's using similiar strategies throughout Part 1. It's like everyone gets turncounts under ~250 turns. It's not bad, it just doesn't feel right. The previous drafts required you to draft with more thought. That's not true at all. Previous drafts didn't have well-known strategies to fall back on. People play the game and draft more and smart ways to do things become more widespread. Different unit penalties has absolutely nothing to do with it. As stated multiple times, the free units are there because they are units you will mostly be required to use anyway, so strategies won't actually be changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenOyster Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Sign me up too, I'm almost done with the one I'm on right now. Is Lehran free? Also, is Haar selectable? There have been talks about banning him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilmik11 Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 Sign me up too, I'm almost done with the one I'm on right now. Is Lehran free? Also, is Haar selectable? There have been talks about banning him... Yes and Yes.I'll sign you up :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Three more people, almost there. Come on guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 With Geoffrey being free it makes nearly all the CRK a worthless pick and Geoffrey's value becomes as horrible as Part 4 characters like Oliver, Renning and such. Now I understand that the rest of the CWK can still be use Part 4 before the tower, its just that they wouldn't really be consider a possibly pick until nearly all the other Part 3 characters or Part 1 (if a person still needs more power there) gets pick Not at all. Past drafts have shown that CRKs generally aren't picked to avoid 2-3/3-9 penalties as it is. Almost everyone will have to use Geoffrey in 2-3 regardless, so that just leaves 3-9. The ones who are best at clearing that alone (Marcia and Calill) are particularly useful units for the desert, giving them more inherent value anyway. Late part 3 and part 4 use is the best thing the CRKs have to offer either way. Geoffrey's value doesn't matter because he isn't in the drafting pool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilmik11 Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 Don't be shy people, sign up, and even if you don't win, it's OK , because you will have fun :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanarkin Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I'd join but I believ i will be busy in the nearby future and i already have a draft and a half to complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrir Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Forcing penalties on the player shouldn't be in the spirit of drafts. Making shit easy shouldn't be in the spirit of drafts. I'll go run through EM if i wanted shit easy. What would you suggest, then? Make sure it doesn't involve forced penalties. Forced penalties, I see nothing wrong with it. Make people get creative and when your stuck on the desert with only Nolan, don't come running back saying "I WANT FREE NAESALA NOW!" go solo the stage with Nolan and say, fuck yea! I jsut beat the desert with only Nolan! Do the same if you can beat 2-3 with Astrid. This is, as far as I can tell, totally accurate and the entire reason behind the new rules. Units should be picked based on things like availability, good bases, mobility, etc. "Best on 10 separate stages" is a great reason to pick someone. Well geoffrey has good availability in the sense that he is on stages other units aren't, he also has good bases and mobility and is the best unit on 2 stages. But now he's free, Geoffrey used to live in a palace, you just made him a fucking homeless man rfof. How could you do that to him =[ Then look at Geoffrey. The sole reason to draft him in the past is to remove penalties. None of the above applies. Brom often went fast despite his mediocre stats and terrible mobility for the same reason; he removed penalties. But, whats the problem in taking a unit because he knocks off penalties? Penalties and Turns are basically the same thing. I take units that knock off turns, so by defualt i'm going to pick units that knock off penalties. It's not treating everyone as equal per se, it's just giving a universal penalty for doing something against the rules regardless of who did it. What benefit does giving Leonardo a 2 turn penalty and Tibarn a 7 turn penalty give? It makes the strong stronger and the weak weaker. Hardly a preferable alternative. actually, it makes the weak stronger and the strong weaker, no idea how you missed this. For example, if I need a unit who will help me knock off some turns but I don't need a monster of a unit I take Elincia over Tibarn on 4-2 correct? because her penalty is 2 turns less. But with your rules, everybody uses Tibarn, 4 turn penalty either way. Tibarn is part of the strong, so he's getting stronger with these rules. the free units are there because they are units you will mostly be required to use anyway, so strategies won't actually be changing. ok, this is a really dumb statement in my eyes. Forgive me if I'm not getting the meaning of the word. But your saying it's BETTER when strategies are EASIER? what in the fuck? The point of drafts is so you can be challenged by an extremely easy game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Making shit easy shouldn't be in the spirit of drafts. I'll go run through EM if i wanted shit easy. This is not making anything easier. It's removing forced penalties. "Easier to get a lower turncount" sure, but not easier to play through the game. NM is easy anyway. If difficulty is your complaint, do a HM draft. Forced penalties, I see nothing wrong with it. Make people get creative and when your stuck on the desert with only Nolan, don't come running back saying "I WANT FREE NAESALA NOW!" go solo the stage with Nolan and say, fuck yea! I jsut beat the desert with only Nolan! Do the same if you can beat 2-3 with Astrid. Clearly you have not understood what I am saying. Forced penalties are the kind that the player virtually has to take unless they drafted the one particular unit that is needed for a map. That is not the case with the desert. Having an inadequate team for the desert is the drafter's fault. Not having Edward for 1-P is not the drafter's fault. But, whats the problem in taking a unit because he knocks off penalties? Penalties and Turns are basically the same thing. I take units that knock off turns, so by defualt i'm going to pick units that knock off penalties. Because you're drafting a unit for their situation instead of their actual merits as a unit. You're drafting them more for something arbitrary instead of something they are legitimately good at. actually, it makes the weak stronger and the strong weaker, no idea how you missed this. For example, if I need a unit who will help me knock off some turns but I don't need a monster of a unit I take Elincia over Tibarn on 4-2 correct? because her penalty is 2 turns less. But with your rules, everybody uses Tibarn, 4 turn penalty either way. Tibarn is part of the strong, so he's getting stronger with these rules. No. It's the idea of drafting. Drafting Tibarn means I don't have to take a 7 turn penalty. Drafting Elincia means I don't take a 3 turn penalty. Saving 7 > saving 3, so Tibarn is stronger in this case. A one or two turn penalty is almost a joke and borders on the unit being free, and obviously a unit who is free is not worth drafting. Tibarn is weaker with a 4 turn penalty as opposed to 7 because drafting him now saves fewer turns when using him and people are more likely to use him regardless of drafting, thus decreasing his value as a draftee. Understand? ok, this is a really dumb statement in my eyes. Forgive me if I'm not getting the meaning of the word. But your saying it's BETTER when strategies are EASIER? what in the fuck? The point of drafts is so you can be challenged by an extremely easy game. When did I say anything was easier? Seriously, read here. I never said the word "easier." I said things won't be changing. That means the difficulty stays the same. All that happens is that you no longer get an arbitrary added number of turns for units you'll be using regardless of drafting them. What you do in maps doesn't change, except in specific cases where you can choose between a few units to be free because drafting one makes another free. This currently only applies to 4 maps, 2 of which (1-1 and 1-2) will barely change and the other two of which (2-2 and 3-1) are frustrating out to annoying as fuck and basically require you to take a penalty otherwise. Since removing forced penalties was the point, we did something about them. So now is Geoffrey free like Ike, Sothe and Micaiah? Yes, at least under the standard rules. Don't know what lilmik is doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilmik11 Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 Well, I'm sorry, but if you want something, don't expect me to read in your minds.SAY IT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrir Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I'm not going to continue this pointless argument. But your still wrong, and I'm still right :awesome: :awesome: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 ^ la la la im right ur wrong. How childish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I'm not going to continue this pointless argument. But your still wrong, and I'm still right :awesome: :awesome: I really have to hope you're not being serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilmik11 Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 Okay, let's stop the childish argument here. I'm kinda worrying people won't sign up at this point and that this draft will just rot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilmik11 Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 Too many drafts going on atm. Yeah, I know. I kinda knew this was gonna happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrir Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Yes this was probly too soon, I think most regular drafters are a part of one now. I really have to hope you're not being serious. I am being completely serious. I still think I'm right, but your to stubborn to argue with. I don't ever continue on with arguments like this, since there is nothing to gain for either side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I am being completely serious. I still think I'm right, but your to stubborn to argue with. I don't ever continue on with arguments like this, since there is nothing to gain for either side. It would have been much better if you just hadn't said anything and let it die. What you did just makes you look arrogant and unable to come up with a proper response. And who's to say you're not being stubborn? As far as I'm concerned, the argument has barely gotten anywhere and right now you've made it look like you bailed out early because you didn't think you could win. Which is smart if that's the case, but you should not have made it so obvious, nor should you have attempted to give off the impression of being right when you couldn't even see the discussion to its end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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