A thought experiment: What happens if we give Fiona all our DB Bexp in NM?

[aku chi]

I've heard that any unit "is usable" or "can be good" in NM. I thought to myself: "Really? Even Fiona!?" This thought experiment is meant to explore how Fiona performs in NM if we give her all of the DB's Bexp. I will assume efficient play - with the exception of this resource distribution choice. I'll be comparing her to Jill that takes no Bexp along the way, because these units have similar growth spread and movement. It has been observed that Bexp level-ups tend to disproportionately favor higher growth stats. As a heuristic to emulate Bexp level-ups, I will alternate between simply raising the 3 stats with the highest growths and increasing each stat by: [growth * (3 / total growths)]. Let us begin:

Funnily enough, our analysis begins in 1-7: Fiona's first chapter of availability. Fiona joins with these base stats:

Level 9 - 25 HP, 8 Str, 6 Mag, 8 Skl, 10 Spd, 7 Lck, 8 Def, 6 Res

Ouch. But, we have 5410 Bexp (mostly from 1-6). (I've assumed that we always reach the Bexp turn limit, a few units escaped in 1-3, and 10/13 Knights + Civilians survived in 1-6.) If we give Fiona all of this Bexp, she can just barely reach level 17. We'll also look at a level 16 Jill as a point of comparison.

Level 17 Fiona - 26.5 HP, 9.3 Str, 6.5 Mag, 9.3 Skl, 16 Spd, 12.8 Lck, 13.8 Def, 7.7 Res

Level 16 Jill - 25 HP, 11.9 Str, 1.3 Mag, 12.9 Skl, 16.3 Spd, 15.2 Lck,, 13.7 Def, 3.9 Res

Fiona's Speed looks pretty good (like Jill's). Unfortunately, it's only enough to double Armors and Mages. With a max-Mt Iron Lance forge, Fiona has 21.3 Atk. That's enough to 2HKO Mages, so she can ORKO them. But she's borderline on 3-4HKOing Archers, Soldiers, and Fighters. And she doesn't double them. So that's pretty bad. Even with doubling Armors, Fiona 4RKOs. That's real bad. BTW, even with a max-Hit forge, Fiona doesn't quite have perfect hit. Jill has a 3.6 Atk advantage plus Hammer access. And this is Jill, whom it is highly recommended to give an Energy Drop. On the defensive end, Fiona is getting 3HKO by just about everything - except Myrmidons, who 4-5HKO. Jill is similar, except she might get 2HKO by some Mages. Oh, this map is indoors - so Fiona has -2 mov. There are also ledges which Fiona is unable to traverse. An unimpressive start, to be sure, but let's see how things pick up for Fiona down the line.

Fiona is unavailable in 1-8, which is just as well considering the terrain, so Fiona's next chapter of availability is 1-E. Let's assume Fiona (and Jill) got one regular level-up in 1-7. By 1-E we can have accumulated 10,550 more Bexp (assuming all Prisoners survive and 3/5 escape in 1-7 and 5/6 survive in 1-8). Crazy! This is enough to Bexp Fiona all the way to 20/7! This is getting unfair for Jill, right? Let's give her a Master Seal.

Level 20/7 Fiona - 30.5 HP, 12.1 Str, 9.2 Mag, 12.1 Skl, 23.6 Spd, 19.2 Lck, 21.2 Def, 11.8 Res

Level 17/1 Jill - 27.5 HP, 14.4 Str, 3.5 Mag, 14.4 Skl, 18.0 Spd, 15.8 Lck, 16.1 Def, 6.4 Res

Let's see how this overleveled Fiona can tear up 1-E! She doubles everything (even Myrmidons) with her massive Speed. That's a good start. Jill can only double Mages, Armors, and maybe some slow Fighters. But... Fiona's Strength is still pitiful. With a max-Mt Steel Lance, Fiona has 27.1 Atk. This is only enough to 2HKO Mages and Myrmidons. It's enough to 2RKO everything except Jarod - even the Armors. Again, Fiona has imperfect accuracy against even with a max-Hit forge. Fiona's 1-2 range is too weak to consider. Now, Jill still has a 3.3 Atk advantage over Fiona with a Steel Axe forge. Jill can 2HKO Soldiers, Fighters, and Snipers. So Fiona only has a notable offensive advantage against Myrmidons when compared with Jill. Things are looking up in for Fiona in the durability department. Fiona's HP may be low but her high defense means that even the toughest physical enemies 4HKO her. Many are in the 6-10HKO region. Some Mages may 3HKO Fiona, but she usually avoids that. Jill isn't doing quite as well, but with her C support, she avoids all physical 2HKOs and is more often 4-5HKO. Mages still 2HKO Jill, which makes Jill sad. Oh, this map is also indoor, so Fiona (and Jill) suffer from -2 mov. There are also tons of ledges which Fiona cannot climb; she must go the long way around. So this chapter is pretty okay for Fiona on the whole.

Ages later, we return to the Dawn Brigade. I'll assume 1 level for Fiona and 2 levels for Jill in 1-E (maybe they used Paragon). 1-E gave us 3750 Bexp. That's enough for 2 more levels of Bexp (and a little to spare). It's worth mentioning that Fiona's capped Spd and Def at this point.

Level 20/10 Fiona - 31.4 HP, 12.9 Str, 9.5 Mag, 12.9 Skl, 24 Spd, 21.3 Lck, 23 Def, 13.8 Res

Level 17/3 Jill - 28.5 HP, 15.3 Str, 3.8 Mag, 15.3 Skl, 19.3 Spd, 17 Lck, 16.9 Def, 7.3 Res

Fiona again has impressive Spd. It's not only enough to double all of the Tigers, but even the majority of the Cats. Fiona also continues to demonstrate poor Str. She has 27.9 Atk with a Steel Lance forge. This 3HKOs the weakest Cats and 4HKOs the rest. Fiona unimpressively 5-6HKOs the Tigers. With Beastfoe, Fiona can ORKO all but the faster Cats, but she OHKOs nothing. Jill, meanwhile, doubles nothing to start but will start doubling Tigers after one level. Jill has a 3.4 Atk advantage with a Steel Axe forge, but also has the option to use the Brave Axe with just 1.6 less Atk than Fiona (albeit with imperfect hit). So Jill soon deals more damage against Tigers and similar damage vs. Cats. Fiona's durability looks pretty impressive, but the S-Strike Tigers can still 2HKO her: those guys are tough. The A-Strike Tigers and S-Strike Cats 4-5HKO and the A-Strike Cats tink. Jill is in worse shape on the durability front, but she still avoids 2HKOs from all but the S-Strike Tigers (with a support). Jill also has the option to canto over the swamp to strategically expose herself to the desired attackers. Fiona is, instead, locked to the starting island. While a lot of laguz can come to her, the freedom to pursue them would have been welcome. So, Fiona is decent in a tough chapter.

Let's suppose Fiona got 2 levels from this chapter. Let's be sympathetic to Jill and suppose that she got 5 levels thanks to Paragon. With the 4500 Bexp from 3-6, we can give Fiona 3 more levels.

Level 20/15 Fiona - 34.8 HP, 14.2 Str, 9.9 Mag, 14.2 Skl, 24 Spd, 25.1 Lck, 23 Def, 17.5 Res

Level 17/8 Jill - 31 HP, 17.5 Str, 4.5 Mag, 17.5 Skl, 22.5 Spd, 20 Lck, 18.5 Def, 9.5 Res

Fiona's Speed is still very good. She can't double Swordmasters, but she can double every other enemy in the chapter. Jill isn't far behind. Warriors and a few Halberdiers may elude her to start the chapter, but a level or two will bring them into doubling range as well. Fiona's Atk is a poor 29.2 with the Steel Lance forge. This isn't even enough to 2HKO Swordmasters or Soldiers. Fiona 4HKOs most enemies, but Generals take hardly any damage. Jill has 33.5 Atk with a Steel Axe forge or 28.5 with the Brave Axe. (Silver Great/Pole weapons are available for purchase but neither Fiona nor Jill has the Hit to wield them reliably - nor does Fiona likely have the weapon level.) Offense goes to Jill. Fiona is quite durable. The very strongest enemies will struggle to 3HKO her, but most are in the 4-8HKO range. Jill's durability isn't too shabby, but she faces 3-4HKOs from most enemies. Fiona finally doesn't suffer any major movement penalties, but Jill's ability to fly up and down the cliff is nice.

Overleveled Fiona is lucky to get one level in 3-12, but we'll give it to her. We'll give Jill 2 levels (she doesn't even need Paragon for that). With the 7500 Bexp from 3-12, Fiona can gain another 4 levels. She ends up capping Resistance and almost capping Luck. The Bexp leaves Fiona at level 20/20 entering 3-13, but I'll be nice and compare a 20/20/1 Fiona with a 17/10/1 Jill (Master Crown'd, of course).

Level 20/20/1 Fiona - 42.6 HP, 19.8 Str, 14.6 Mag, 18.8 Skl, 26 Spd, 29.33 Lck, 26 Def, 22 Res

Level 17/10/1 Jill - 36 HP, 21.4 Str, 8.8 Mag, 20.4 Skl, 25.8 Spd, 21.2 Lck, 22.2 Def, 14.4 Res

Alright, tier 3 beorc in 3-13! 26 Spd likely doubles all of the laguz. Unfortunately, it doesn't double even base Ike. Fiona's Atk is now at an almost respectable 34.8 with a Steel Lance forge. Jill has 37.4 Atk with a Steel Axe forge and 32.4 Atk with the Brave Axe. Fiona still misses 2HKOs on even the weakest Cats and Hawks, though she can 2HKO Hawks with a bow. Jill can ORKO most Cats and Hawks with the Steel Axe forge and all of them with the Brave Axe. Fiona can 4HKO Tigers and Jill can't ORKO them without a Stun proc, so they're almost even there. Neither Fiona nor Jill deals much damage to Ike normally. Even a base Ike with Ragnell equipped takes only ~7-8 damage from the pair. Jill, however, has a much higher chance to proc Stun against Ike (higher Skill and Skill% vs. Skill/2% activation).

Fiona's durability is good; Cats and Hawks will 8HKO at best. S-Strike Tigers (the majority) only 4HKO, which is cool. Jill is 3HKO'd by those same Tigers, and takes more damage from Cats and Hawks as well. Both take heavy damage from Ike. Even a base Ike has 42 Atk with Ragnell, dealing 15 damage to Fiona and ~19 damage to Jill. Both can canto away to avoid a counter-attack when needed. Oh, both Fiona and Jill's mounts decided that the snow was a conspiracy and they were really indoors: -2 mov. Fiona can't mess with ledges and so has to go the long way around. Fiona is pretty good here, which is an underwhelming compliment for a tier 3 unit, but she is still pretty good.

Then Fiona enters Part 4 around 20/20/2. Fiona's Speed is not high enough to reliably double in the Greil or Hawk armies. But we don't want to send Fiona with the Silver army, because she is worthless in 4-3. So Fiona's kinda in a pickle. I guess we can feed her even more Bexp to get her up to 28 AS so she can double in the Greil or Hawk armies. But 35 Atk is really unimpressive, especially in the Greil Army. If she goes with Tibarn to 4-2, she can take a Silver Lance forge, which at least lets her 2RKO. Fiona's durability seems like it would be a selling point, but I'd like to point out that her 20/20/1 durability is almost identical to base Ranulf's durability. In fact, base Ranulf (even with A-Strike) is equal or greater than a 20/20/1 Fiona in almost every way. So that's hardly an inspiring Part 4 performance.

In conclusion, it is a devaluation of the word "good" to suggest that Fiona can be good, even in normal mode. Even if we give her the entirety of the Dawn Bridage's Bexp (31,500 total), she's never stellar. And even with all that Bexp, she mediocre at best in Part 4. I hope you had fun reading. I had fun stat crunching and analyzing. Until next time (there probably will be no next time).

[Paperblade]

I didn't read this but I'm going to assume it involved her Strength and Skill sucking.

Edit: Yep. BEXP is a bitch, man.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Paperblade

[whase]

If you'd actually play it smart, all characters have a high chance of capping everything. If your caps are good, the unit's "good". but Pals have terrible caps, even sages are better off IMO...

I don't think this counts for laguz though, Lyre is just unsaveable...

[dondon151]

This guy is clearly missing the point.

[Smiley Jim]

Uh, why would I even dream of doing this? I know you are trying to be theoretical and all, but why would I waste my BEXP on a hideously underleveled unit(and sandbagging everyone else)when I could use it to get the first tiers I am using to 20/0 by 1-E? I'm pretty sure most of us feel the same way.

In a way, I can compare your experiment to spoonfeeding a unit(say, FE6 Wendy)every enemy on a map, which is blatant favoritism.

Edited October 11, 2011 by darkandroid125

[incognit0]

I've heard that any unit "is usable" or "can be good" in NM. I thought to myself: "Really? Even Fiona!?" This thought experiment is meant to explore how Fiona performs in NM if we give her all of the DB's Bexp. I will assume efficient play - with the exception of this resource distribution choice. I'll be comparing her to Jill that takes no Bexp along the way, because these units have similar growth spread and movement. It has been observed that Bexp level-ups tend to disproportionately favor higher growth stats. As a heuristic to emulate Bexp level-ups, I will alternate between simply raising the 3 stats with the highest growths and increasing each stat by: [growth * (3 / total growths)]. Let us begin:

Level 17 Fiona - 26.5 HP, 9.3 Str, 6.5 Mag, 9.3 Skl, 16 Spd, 12.8 Lck, 13.8 Def, 7.7 Res

Fiona is a piece of crap. But your method exaggerates this quite a bit. Her Str growth is 40, which is only 15 lower than Lck and Def. You only have Fiona gaining 1.3 points of Str and 1.7 points of Res (only .5 less than Def and Lck) while she gains 5.8 points of Def and Lck. Look at the 50% growth with the 55% growth; it's over a 4 point difference! That's simply not realistic; it is why any mathy manipulation of BEXP is ultimately doomed to fail.

But, once again, I didn't exactly need this to know Fiona was a piece of crap.

[Naglfar]

Uh, why would I even dream of doing this? I know you are trying to be theoretical and all, but why would I waste my BEXP on a hideously underleveled unit(and sandbagging everyone else)when I could use it to get the first tiers I am using to 20/0 by 1-E? I'm pretty sure most of us feel the same way.

In a way, I can compare your experiment to spoonfeeding a unit(say, FE6 Wendy)every enemy on a map, which is blatant favoritism.

Of course you wouldn't. But who gives a shit if you would or not? I'm sorry if you seriously thought this was about anything close to practical.

[Anouleth]

I'm not sure that BEXP shafts Fiona's growths that badly. After all, you have her gaining 1.3STR in eight levels, or approximately a 15% growth.

Then again, it is tied for her second lowest growth.

[Junkhead]

Very good at taking your time theorizing all that. Although a few times the word "good" goes where's not supposed to go when referring to Fiona. :/

Her craptastic sub-20 Str at 3rd tier is disturbing. Also, why didn't you round up the numbers?

[aku chi]

Fiona is a piece of crap. But your method exaggerates this quite a bit. Her Str growth is 40, which is only 15 lower than Lck and Def. You only have Fiona gaining 1.3 points of Str and 1.7 points of Res (only .5 less than Def and Lck) while she gains 5.8 points of Def and Lck. Look at the 50% growth with the 55% growth; it's over a 4 point difference! That's simply not realistic; it is why any mathy manipulation of BEXP is ultimately doomed to fail.

I'm not sure that BEXP shafts Fiona's growths that badly. After all, you have her gaining 1.3STR in eight levels, or approximately a 15% growth.

Then again, it is tied for her second lowest growth.

My "mathy" heuristic conforms quite closely with empirical data. The biggest outlier is Resistance, which Fiona is likely to gain more of, in place of luck or defense. I'm not sure it would make much difference in the analysis. You'll notice that once Fiona caps Spd and Def, her Res and HP jump up. Once Spd, Def, and Res cap, Skl and Spd finally have a chance to grow at a decent pace. It's just too little, too late for Fiona. I could do another pass with a different Bexp heuristic that attempts to more closely mimic the linked empirical data, if requested.

Her craptastic sub-20 Str at 3rd tier is disturbing. Also, why didn't you round up the numbers?

Why would I round the stats to the nearest integer? They represent the expected value that the stat may take. An expected Str of 9.3, for instance, is neither 9 nor 10. It represents the weighted average of the likelihood that Fiona will have 9 Str, or 10 Str, or 8 Str, or 11 Str, etc...

[Junkhead]

I mean when the decimal gets to .5, that's when you have to round up, no?

[aku chi]

I mean when the decimal gets to .5, that's when you have to round up, no?

No. Let us consider a simple example. Titania has 21 Speed at base. She has a 50% Speed growth. After gaining one level, Titania has a 50% chance of having 21 Speed and a 50% chance of having 22 Speed. The expected value of Titania's Speed at level 17 is 21.5. It is inaccurate to state that Titania averages either 21 or 22 Speed at level 17.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Uh, why would I even dream of doing this? I know you are trying to be theoretical and all, but why would I waste my BEXP on a hideously underleveled unit(and sandbagging everyone else)when I could use it to get the first tiers I am using to 20/0 by 1-E? I'm pretty sure most of us feel the same way.

In a way, I can compare your experiment to spoonfeeding a unit(say, FE6 Wendy)every enemy on a map, which is blatant favoritism.

Suggesting they aren't 20/1 by the swamp map?

I play way more unefficently than I think I play if this is true

[Junkhead]

No. Let us consider a simple example. Titania has 21 Speed at base. She has a 50% Speed growth. After gaining one level, Titania has a 50% chance of having 21 Speed and a 50% chance of having 22 Speed. The expected value of Titania's Speed at level 17 is 21.5. It is inaccurate to state that Titania averages either 21 or 22 Speed at level 17.

ok sorry 8[

[Zanarkin]

Fiona can be "good", however its not just because of the BEXP. I believe its a factor of weaker enemies, more EXP per kill/hit and more BEXP as well.

Also, to whoever said Lyre is unsalvageable, go look at RD drafts. Those have amazing Lyres

[aku chi]

Fiona can be "good", however its not just because of the BEXP. I believe its a factor of weaker enemies, more EXP per kill/hit and more BEXP as well.

I took into account NM enemies being slightly weaker than HM enemies in the analysis. Fiona only has 5 chapters before Part 4 in which to gain Cexp, 4 of which she suffers substantial movement penalties. I assumed that she gained 6 levels in those chapters, anyway, despite being very overleveled in all but 1-7. More Bexp!? I gave her all of the Dawn Brigade's Bexp in this thought experiment. How can Fiona be "good"?

[arvilino]

Fiona can be "good", however its not just because of the BEXP. I believe its a factor of weaker enemies, more EXP per kill/hit and more BEXP as well.

Also, to whoever said Lyre is unsalvageable, go look at RD drafts. Those have amazing Lyres

Fiona is still weaker than the enemies on Normal Mode when she joins. She's not exactly "good", more that she can be salvagable to a rather mediocre point even after all the DB EXP is given to her, which is a collosal waste of EXP.

[Florete]

I took into account NM enemies being slightly weaker than HM enemies in the analysis. Fiona only has 5 chapters before Part 4 in which to gain Cexp, 4 of which she suffers substantial movement penalties. I assumed that she gained 6 levels in those chapters, anyway, despite being very overleveled in all but 1-7. More Bexp!? I gave her all of the Dawn Brigade's Bexp in this thought experiment. How can Fiona be "good"?

Technically BEXP brings her lower than average, so feeding her kills is better. BEXP is 3 stats while normal levels give her 3.6 on average. As mentioned, I agree that your experiment gives her abnormally low levels of Str.

I believe the best way to use Fiona and make her good is to give her an Energy Drop and Seraph Robe and always make sure she goes into maps at 99 experience, feeding her kills at every opportunity. A few initial levels of BEXP at 1-7 might be good, but all of it is probably only making her worse.

[aku chi]

Technically BEXP brings her lower than average, so feeding her kills is better. BEXP is 3 stats while normal levels give her 3.6 on average. As mentioned, I agree that your experiment gives her abnormally low levels of Str.

I believe the best way to use Fiona and make her good is to give her an Energy Drop and Seraph Robe and always make sure she goes into maps at 99 experience, feeding her kills at every opportunity. A few initial levels of BEXP at 1-7 might be good, but all of it is probably only making her worse.

Extra levels can't make her worse. I mean, they could if she actually capped level, but that's just about impossible for Fiona.

But I can do a second pass to try to make Fiona "good". This time, I'll hold off on completing levels with Bexp, so she can gain a few more levels with Cexp. I'll give her both an Energy Drop and Seraph Robe (along with Jill, to keep the comparison sane). I'll also derive another heuristic for calculating Bexp growths that more nearly matches this empirical data. If anybody has additional empirical data on Fiona's Bexp growths that could refine my heuristic: please offer them now. If you have any other critiques of my initial analysis or suggestions for how to make Fiona "good": voice them now. Reset abuse will not be considered, for reasons I consider obvious. Nor will clearly inefficient play be considered. This analysis does not exist to see what would happen if we spent 25 turns in 1-E feeding Fiona kills. It exists to determine if Fiona can be valuable in efficient play if we are willing to give her almost all our resources.

[incognit0]

My only comment:

I don't think that we need to go through inaccurate mathematical calculations to come to the conclusion Fiona isn't good. Furthermore, I have no clue why you brought this up; you say you have no clue why people say Fiona is "useable", yet you won't consider inefficient play. People have different definitions of "useable" and often they do not include inefficient play. Therefore this does not refute anything. I doubt that anyone is trying to argue Fiona is amazing on an efficient playthrough, and also don't believe we need this madness to refute that argument.

Plus, I reject that your sample size is large enough to simulate true BEXP, and consider it the inherent flaw of your analysis that we don't know the formula for BEXP.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Technically BEXP brings her lower than average, so feeding her kills is better. BEXP is 3 stats while normal levels give her 3.6 on average. As mentioned, I agree that your experiment gives her abnormally low levels of Str.

I believe the best way to use Fiona and make her good is to give her an Energy Drop and Seraph Robe and always make sure she goes into maps at 99 experience, feeding her kills at every opportunity. A few initial levels of BEXP at 1-7 might be good, but all of it is probably only making her worse.

Indeed. Also Paragon. I admit when i use her, she gets a lot of BEXP when shes first tier. But after that, its Paragon use and feeding her kills. She does alright when you keep Imbue on her. Plus after a while, she gets a bit tanky. Her strength will always be meh. Always. Even with the Energy Drop, which helps, it still is under par compared to jut about everyone. A Secret Book helps in the beginning cuz her skill is ass at base. So yeah even though she does make chapters like 3-12 and 3-13 easier (sometimes) when leveled, it will always be up for debate if its actually worth it. (I like using Fiona but thats just me though.)

Edited October 11, 2011 by Florina

[Zanarkin]

Idk... If you are going to bother using Fiona might as well make the best out of the BEXP and reset abuse the hell out of it. You have the patience to use fiona after all, a few (Not really a few more like a lot) resets shouldn't make you mad.

[Paperblade]

Technically BEXP brings her lower than average, so feeding her kills is better. BEXP is 3 stats while normal levels give her 3.6 on average. As mentioned, I agree that your experiment gives her abnormally low levels of Str.

I believe the best way to use Fiona and make her good is to give her an Energy Drop and Seraph Robe and always make sure she goes into maps at 99 experience, feeding her kills at every opportunity. A few initial levels of BEXP at 1-7 might be good, but all of it is probably only making her worse.

The levels of strength aren't "abnormal," it's just how BEXP works.

[whase]

Lyre useful? who would've figured...

either way, on my paladin only PT (NM) I soloed all DB maps that featured Fiona with Fiona. wasn't that terrible, only 1-7 took a whole lot of turns (and resets, to make sure she has a good start). for inefficient play she isn't bad at all.

[dondon151]

for inefficient play she isn't bad at all.

Grass is green, and sky is blue.