Prince of Tennis Mafia - Game Over

[Naglfar]

You think a game checked by Life of all people would allow a town without a cop? And you think that on top of something that absurd, that Life would let Kaoz tell the mafia during Cycle 1 "Yeah the town has no cop?"

I'm supposed to know what Life likes?

Insane cop is a bastard role. Kaoz wants us to think, not have a game where he could go "HAHA GOT YOU YOU WERE INSANE!"

Again, I'm supposed to know what Kaoz likes?

A naive cop is worse than having no cop because it not only gives no real information, but it misleads the town into thinking that it does. Also note that even in this scenario there is a very high chance Bal is town: there is 1 scum dead with no town lost.

Okay, fine.

I actually raged when I saw the above 3 suggestions though. You really think that someone would make a game with a starting lineup that was invite only (including people who are already disillusioned with mafia here) to join a game only to troll them with shit like that?

You tell me, O Veteran Paperblade.

Or you're godfather!

Or I'm godfather!

Or there is no godfather!

Gasp!

I think you've already made up your mind with regards to this situation (that Bal and/or the cop are evil) and are grasping for reasons as to why you're right even though some of those reasons don't necessarily mean Bal and/or the cop are evil (such as the cop being naive). This is what we call a confirmation bias. However, despite your apparent conviction that you are right, you aren't doing anything about it other than trying to smudge me.

It's more like I didn't want the town to go off and do something dumb. "Smudging" you was quite literally an afterthought - it's great how I can be OMGUS'ed without even voting now! I'm aware that it's more likely than not to work in our favour if we all claim to Bal, but that's like saying it's more likely than not to work in our favour if we play Russian Roulette. And there wasn't even all that much hyperbole involved there.

In fact, even though this might be due to your inexperience, between today and your C1 behavior, I'm finding myself wanting you around less and less

So do you mean I look scummy because of incorrect observations anyone who doesn't know SF mafia inside and out would make, or do you mean you just don't like me? Either reason sounds terrible.

Oh wait I mentioned my inexperience, time to wait for Snike to yell at me.

btw the difference between you and everyone else is you have announced intent to basically never claim

uh no

and I'm downplaying the chance of it going sour because statistically it is very unlikely that Bal is evil. Paranoia is a good trait to have in mafia but you are letting it cripple your ability to think rationally.

Or I apparently just overestimated the possibility.

why does strawman have like a wagon of four people voting him where three of them are basically voting him with one liners, that looks terrible to me.

Not everyone is has super-complicated reasons for everything? How long an essay do you think we should be able to write about a suspicion before it's time to put a vote, something that can be taken back, down?

I wonder why it seems I can't post a single opinion or vote without someone saying "GEE THAT'S KINDA SCUMMY THERE NAGGYFAG." It's kind of annoying. Yes, I'm new to this, and not every fucking thing I post is going to be optimal or even entirely good. Right now you're thinking "gee he's getting defensive, which only scum does, with all his little valid points that he can back up reasonably or at least explain which I'm ignoring because meta/inexperience/previous games are arbitrarily meaningless." Good for you, I guess.

[Prims]

That wasn't what I was thinking, but it's pretty silly that you're suddenly freaking out.

My main problem with the Strawman wagon is that I can't even tell why anybody other than Levity is voting him.

[Prims]

 It's one thing to be concise, it's another to place a vote down on Strawman when your reasons for finding him suspicious don't seem to actually be anywhere in the thread. As for the others, Snike's vote looked like... an early lurker prod, and Bal's vote was claimed to be a placeholder. It feels shaky to me overall. 

[Naglfar]

Strawman just hasn't been posting as much as anybody would like. Votes are a good way to get somebody to talk more.

[Psych]

I'm going to throw a vote down on Bizz, because she's been all over the place, and not how she usually is. It's like....she's trying to do it on purpose, and then attempt to reason herself clear.

##Vote Bizz

[Snike]

I'm going to be working for the next 9 hours, so no prodding kthnx.

My vote was on Ducky as a bit of a prod, but it kept going partially because when prodded, he failed to contribute in a meaningful manner.

Also Bal may very well be clear, but I'll withold my claim until I get back.

[Balcerzak]

First, the end of cycle 1 stuff that I only skimmed initially.

I really liked eclipse's summary post, and I usually tend to assign nice solid town-points to people who take the time and effort to do things like this, as well as people who are frequent votal updaters, etc. Combined with me earlier feelings on her standing out rather than blending in this was a good thing to see for me. It wasn't until Prims pointed out possibly trying to generate momentum on a counterwagon. I had to have a nice long sit-back and realize to myself, that if looking active and contributing by making nice objective summaries, which yes does take effort but does not really provide new information, or any deeper hints to a player's motivation, might actually be an excellent scum technique to dress themselves up. I also distinctly remember eclipse griping something about if people just let huge text-walls of "I'm town, SEE HOW MUCH I'M TOWN" fly easily in the future she would be displeased. (I believe this was specifically in Tales of Vesparia in response to one of Obviams Post Restriction induced lectures.) So I had to take a step back, and now I'm honestly a little confused on what to do with eclipse. There is also the bit after the JB claim about how she mentioned her role is incompatible with backup, that I should probably also analyze, but if I'm going to get this post done before I have to go leave and do things, I may just have to defer that to another time.

Another thing of interest, to me, was JB's attempted defense. Worth particular note was his attack on Tables, which I think may be an attempt to distance himself. At this point he was pretty obviously in deep water, and there was no prior votes. Compared to any existing wagon, this clearly didn't seem to be designed on saving his skin, and so I've suddenly had to increase my level of suspicion on Tables, soon-to-became Psych.

Unlike I believe it was Prims, I didn't find Snike's list and associated thoughts to be all that clearing. It was mostly "I will answer the current set of important questions" type of vibes, and while there was some new content in there, some of it seemed a little questionable to me.

...no one has commented on the whole backup claim yet, so I'll address that. I think it's rubbish, to be honest. Not because of whatever Kevin sees, but because of the setup right now. There's probably 4 power roles, so if the town gets the typical cop doc vig trio, it wouldn't really be fair for the mafia if a backup were in play, FMPOV. Since, well, it's a backup power role.

I'm perhaps reading this the wrong way, and maybe he's drawing a distinction between power roles and passive roles that I personally wouldn't (I would for example generally refer to mayor/doublevoter as a power role, this may not be correct usage, but I've gotten into the habit), but drawing the numbers that way explicitly felt off to me. If there are only four power roles, are you trying to suggest the game has vanilla? There's nothing wrong with those kinds of set-ups, and they could indeed be refreshing to play from time to time. It's just we haven't had one here in ages. This issue will probably work itself out when the issue regarding SMS claims gets resolved, so I'm not putting it on top priority, but I did find it a bit of concern, and thought I should note it.

---

The stuff today, I guess I'm still going to end up being a bit behind on, but Bizz's uncontested role-block claim does appear to be favorable. It is not impossible that she would be the roleblocker herself, have idled, and claimed blocked to shore up support (and also to avoid being tracked to someone who was blocked), but on the other hand that also has drawbacks, like if she had been watched and confirmed to have been no-visited. For the time-being I'm going to accept it at face-value, and I really don't think a town roleblocker would act on a deathless cycle, so she goes up several points on the town side of the scale there.

What exactly does Bal want us to claim? Character name, role ability, and C1 action taken?

Also if Bal is doing this are we going to be graced with a claim (I feel like town leaders should claim but at the same time mouth pieces don't necessarily do so)?

Yes. Those three things would be the ideal claim, and shouldn't have any issue fitting into the character limit. If there is anything else you want to put in as well that fits, I won't object.

As for my personal claim, I am planning to just give that to player who checked me. I think it would probably be best I gave him everyone else's claim too, in case a hitman or something wipes me out this cycle, but I'll definitely entertain discussion on the course of action that should be done there.

Also I want to wait on this to make sure EVERYONE has had time to read Bal's post to make sure this isn't the mafia trying to pull some funny business.

Apparently the alliance cop felt that organization was worth the risk and contacted me via SMS, informing me he knew I was allied with the town, that I should announce this, give a window of opportunity such that everyone is confident no counter-claims are forthcoming, and then that I should request claims via SMS from everyone else.

So that's exactly what I'm going to do before I go to sleep tonight. See you all when I wake up.

I have no problems with this. I am a patient man, the cycle is still young, and there are plenty of avenues for discussion in the meantime.

There was one point vs Naglfar that I think may have been blown out of proportion. His unwillingness to claim, which honestly is not entirely that different from what I'm seeing Bizz say as well. Compare the two. Yes, his is much more direct, but they are expressing the same sentiments. I will definitely have to spend some more time looking on developments, though to be sure of things.

By the way, I have no intention of claiming to Bal or anyone for a fair while.

i already mentioned the distinct possibility of bal being the godfather and that's why i'm wary of him...

Ugh, after shenanigans with Life in previous games I just do not fall for this type of shit anymore. I will not be fooled again.

... Huh...

... Man, so many other things right now that I want to say, but... no, I'm just not going to fully trust these shenanigans until I figure some things out.

Also, I think I'm going to move my vote.

##Unvote

##Vote: Psych

The JB incident has me intrigued, and I wish to investigate this. Strawman has built a wagon, and while he hasn't done much in the way of responding to it, there is time to return to that issue later in the day.

I'm sure I've still missed out on a lot of things that I need to update and recover, but I'm going to have to cut this off here, I've got things that need taking care of.

[Strawman]

I thought up of a bunch of scenarios, ranging from "exactly what he said" to some very twisted ones. However, most of the really screwed-up ones can be quickly dispelled if the real cop comes in here and says otherwise. Since it's been a bit over two hours since Bal's post, I'm waiting until I wake up tomorrow, at earliest.

Either way, this game just got interesting.

Am I the only one who finds this post somewhat suspicious? It may just be me over thinking or misunderstanding things, but it sounds kind of like Eclipse is subtly pushing for the cop to claim in the thread. I understand that some people don't trust this whole cop sending Bal a message thing, but getting our cop out in the open at this point definitely seems like something the mafia would want so they can kill/block/whatever him.

##Vote: Eclipse

Please explain.

[Zkirsche]

Since I see a lack of comment on anything else besides a recent quote and me, I'll assume you haven't read the rest of the day, Kevin.

Since there's very few posts of major significance, I decided to not comment on any of them. Unless you want me to address the strawman bandwagon? But the fact that I didn't vote Strawman should say something about what I think of it.

Unless you meant the fact that Bizz was rolebloicked, which is trivial as I could have guessed there would be some kind of role blocker in this game.

Naglfar's continued refusal to claim screams paranoid or anti-town to me, but his defence has passion and semi-good reasoning. So I'll buy it.

Worth particular note was his attack on Tables, which I think may be an attempt to distance himself. At this point he was pretty obviously in deep water, and there was no prior votes. Compared to any existing wagon, this clearly didn't seem to be designed on saving his skin, and so I've suddenly had to increase my level of suspicion on Tables, soon-to-became Psych.

This is actually a good point and I can definitely see JB doing something like this. However, my vote will stay on eclipse for now as her blinkers have still not been retracted, and that's still more scummy than a meta-gaming guess.

[Percivalé]

Honestly, Bal, I feel that Nag's reasoning for not claiming to you and my own reasoning for not not claiming to you are two entirely different reasonings

Also lol, Psych, do you just get off on voting me every game?

[Psych]

Honestly, Bal, I feel that Nag's reasoning for not claiming to you and my own reasoning for not not claiming to you are two entirely different reasonings

Also lol, Psych, do you just get off on voting me every game?

.....Maybe

[Prims]

I can't tell if Psych legit thinks Levity is scum or is just acting on personal grudges (given something he did in a CARA game once). I really hope it's not the latter. <_<

[Prims]

Also, are Kay/Proto just going to... not do anything now that they have a hydra? I seriously almost forgot they were still in the game.

[eclipse]

First, stop trying to metagame Life in a game he isn't even in, Paper~!

Second, that summary was mostly for me, because I didn't want to go backwards over 13 pages trying to figure out who said what and where. I think it was worth it, because I've referenced it several times for various things. I might do one when I get home from work tomorrow, because while there's been discussion, I don't think that there's enough content here to warrant it. I guess this could've stayed in Notepad, but then I'd have to manually hunt down links for the wordier posts.

Third. . .

If there are only four power roles, are you trying to suggest the game has vanilla?

Would there be anything wrong with this game if there were?

Fourth. . .

Am I the only one who finds this post somewhat suspicious? It may just be me over thinking or misunderstanding things, but it sounds kind of like Eclipse is subtly pushing for the cop to claim in the thread. I understand that some people don't trust this whole cop sending Bal a message thing, but getting our cop out in the open at this point definitely seems like something the mafia would want so they can kill/block/whatever him.

##Vote: Eclipse

Please explain.

Okay~! The most simplistic scenario is that Bal is town, and the cop contacted Bal via SMS. In this case, the cop doesn't need to say anything, and Bal can pass the message on.

Other scenarios (besides Bal being the godfather, which Paper already addressed) include someone that isn't the cop contacting Bal, and the cop contacting no one and Bal pulling this out of thin air. If either of these scenarios are true, then the real cop can speak up, and we've got scum in either Bal or the person who tried to contact him.

Fifth. . .

Since there's very few posts of major significance, I decided to not comment on any of them. Unless you want me to address the strawman bandwagon? But the fact that I didn't vote Strawman should say something about what I think of it.

Unless you meant the fact that Bizz was rolebloicked, which is trivial as I could have guessed there would be some kind of role blocker in this game.

Naglfar's continued refusal to claim screams paranoid or anti-town to me, but his defence has passion and semi-good reasoning. So I'll buy it.

This is actually a good point and I can definitely see JB doing something like this. However, my vote will stay on eclipse for now as her blinkers have still not been retracted, and that's still more scummy than a meta-gaming guess.

Edited out: too many newlines

Here's what you (and a lot of other people) missed:

- the possibility of more than one mafia, as proposed by Prims (I think it's unlikely, from a numbers standpoint)

- thoughts on the Strawman wagon (mine: I'm waiting for one last opinion)

- Psych's vote, which seems kinda out of place, IMO

- why Nags' rather passionate defense is okay, but my dislike of your playstyle isn't

- Actually, this needs to be said again. I DON'T LIKE THE FACT THAT YOU PLAY LIKE SCUM AND THINK IT'S A OKAY.

- Here. A third time. With bold. And on a different line.

I DO NOT LIKE THE FACT THAT YOU THINK PLAYING LIKE SCUM IS A GOOD WAY TO PLAY MAFIA. IT GETS IN THE WAY OF MY SCUMHUNTING, AND USING "I ALWAYS PLAY LIKE SCUM" TO JUSTIFY YOURSELF IS ABSOLUTELY STUPID, AND IS PART OF THE REASON WHY THIS COMMUNITY IS STAGNATING. I HAPPEN TO BE FOND OF THIS COMMUNITY, AND I DON'T WANT IT TO DIE, SO THIS IS MY WAY OF HELPING. I'M SORRY IF IT OFFENDS YOU, BUT AT THIS POINT, I CARE MORE ABOUT THE STATE OF SF MAFIA IN GENERAL.

(should I make it blink?)

Now, with that being said (I think I got everyone?), my turn:

##Vote: Proto

I saw you on IRC earlier in the phase, and currently see a whole lot of nothing from you. You're the opinion I'm waiting on.

[Percivalé]

IT GETS IN THE WAY OF MY SCUMHUNTING

Doesn't it get in the way of everyone's scumhunting?

Meh, I wish I had more to say than this. Give me a bit more time.

I'm still not feeling the best on Strawman, and that's why my vote is still there. I guess it's likely I'll have to change it, though.

[eclipse]

It does, Bizz, but there seems to be a lot of people ignoring that. That's part of the reason why I'm unhappy about it.

[Prims]

I don't see how Kevin has been "intentionally playing like scum" since the start of D1. Examples would help. That said, having a controversial playstyle isn't a very good reason to lynch somebody, because playstyle and alignment are totally seperate.

I'm still waiting on a post from Proto/Kay.

[eclipse]

Let's start from here

Read three posts down. What do you say about Kevin, Prims?

Here's some more, by Prims

Keep reading further.

Paperblade's comment

JB points this out, too

(note: I know JB flipped scum, but the fact that he pointed it out says something)

Paper notes that Kevin's play style isn't new

Bizz's take

Naglfar's comment

This line of reasoning needs to be taken outside and shot until it has more holes than Swiss cheese

Given everything I posted, I think Kevin does this intentionally, and it pisses me off. I might not look good for this game, but what Kevin is doing doesn't look good for this community.

[eclipse]

Also, I saw you in here JUST NOW, Proto. Say something.

[Psych]

Honestly Bizz's constant waffling is enough to keep my vote where it is.

[Percivalé]

Honestly Bizz's constant waffling is enough to keep my vote where it is.

You always vote me at least once in every game for the same reason. You're being silly.

[Prims]

I said "since the start of D1". Yeah, Kevin's early D1 was pretty shitty, but since the wagon on him dissipated I don't think he's been "intentionally playing like scum" or anything.

Psych is deadweight. If Bizz is scum then what's your explanation for the roleblock shenanigans?

[Prims]

Dissipated isn't the right word but w/e

[eclipse]

Prims, did you even bother reading everything?

[Zkirsche]

- the possibility of more than one mafia, as proposed by Prims (I think it's unlikely, from a numbers standpoint)

This is the only legitimate point that I missed. And tbh It'll just be a guess either way with no firm proof. Best just to keep moving forward instead of randomly guessing.

- thoughts on the Strawman wagon (mine: I'm waiting for one last opinion)

I addressed this.

- Psych's vote, which seems kinda out of place, IMO

Psych voted after I made that post. Therefore it does not count as part of your continued ridiculous accusation. Quite frankly I don't think I even need to address it much other than "What prims said" because that's honestly how I feel about it.

- why Nags' rather passionate defense is okay, but my dislike of your playstyle isn't

If you are honestly blinkering me because of my playstyle then I'd be very surprised at you.

You're scummy because you have immediately targetted me and will not listen to reason.

- Actually, this needs to be said again. I DON'T LIKE THE FACT THAT YOU PLAY LIKE SCUM AND THINK IT'S A OKAY.

k.

I DO NOT LIKE THE FACT THAT YOU THINK PLAYING LIKE SCUM IS A GOOD WAY TO PLAY MAFIA. IT GETS IN THE WAY OF MY SCUMHUNTING, AND USING "I ALWAYS PLAY LIKE SCUM" TO JUSTIFY YOURSELF IS ABSOLUTELY STUPID, AND IS PART OF THE REASON WHY THIS COMMUNITY IS STAGNATING. I HAPPEN TO BE FOND OF THIS COMMUNITY, AND I DON'T WANT IT TO DIE, SO THIS IS MY WAY OF HELPING. I'M SORRY IF IT OFFENDS YOU, BUT AT THIS POINT, I CARE MORE ABOUT THE STATE OF SF MAFIA IN GENERAL.

1. People's lives have gotten busier.

2. People target the good players, making them not want to play.

3. Everything gets boring if you have too much of it, and a lot of people are realising this and taking freqeuent breaks to try and keep things fresh. It doesn't help that we have the same old formulas every game. PB's MtG Mafia was incredibly fun to play and I would love to see more styles like that in the future. Also less fun roles IMO. I'm thinking tailors, yakuzas, rogues, framers etc etc. Not crazy roles that make 50 different effects occur when they die. Fun roles which require stealth and intelligent play, and reward such play greatly.

There's a few things which may or may not be contributing to some. If stupid play is the problem then unfortunately that's never going to change.

##Vote: Proto

I saw you on IRC earlier in the phase, and currently see a whole lot of nothing from you. You're the opinion I'm waiting on.

Hold on, if you think I'm acting like scum and Psych is voting like scum why don't you pressure us to explain? LaLu is good an all but only in the face of no scummy players worth lynching.