New Support System

[Onmi]

Common complaints about the support system

A. I have no idea what these bonuses do without a documented guide

B. Right up until I had screwed myself over I didn't know there was a limit on supports

C. I want to see the conversations, but don't want to play through the game over and over again

D. I really don't understand the tactical use of supports

E. Supports take to long to grow.

F. Supports limit my tactical applications, forcing me to use units I couldn't predict I wouldn't be using normally

With the exception of E. which was addressed wonderfully in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn, and A. which I think RD hit (haven't played in a long long time, will do so again though) these are constant problems I see, and I think I have a solution, now keep in mind I'm dead tired right now, so I may be a little confusing. (And F partially)

Lets start by addressing C "I want to see all the conversations" my response? let them. Don't limit how many supports a unit can gain, they can max out every one of their support partners WITH exceptions. Lets use POR/RD as the example here

IKE wants to A support with Soren/Ranulf/Elincia/Lethe when he goes to do that however, a small scene plays where Ike thinks to himself "If I'm really going to go through with this, this could change everything" If the player decides to proceed as is, Ike will play out the Romantic/BFF support and gain an S Rank in that one support. I'll go over what an S means in a moment, but for now this means that Ike is locked into his paired ending with whoever the S rank was with, for the other 3? he defaults to an A Rank friendship support.

This A. Gives the players warning when performing a support (this can't be taken back and WILL change the ending of these two characters) and B. lets the player still have a reason to go for other paired endings.

But the bonuses, you're thinking, what about the bonuses? Simple. You pick 5.

E.G.

Ike has All A supports.

On the next map, you want to deploy Oscar and Reyson.

You go into the Supports bonus menu which is a list grid as such

OSCAR C/B/A

REYSON C/B/A

SOREN C/B/A

ELINCIA C/B/A

TITANIA C/B/A

LETHE C/B/A

RANULF C/B/A

You want the full avoid bonus from Oscar, but kinda want Reysons attack bonus

OSCAR */*/*

REYSON */*/A

SOREN C/B/A

ELINCIA C/B/A

TITANIA C/B/A

LETHE C/B/A

RANULF C/B/A

The next mission, you decide Oscar gets to sit this one out, and the enemy are really dodgy so you want more hit in fact you want a lot of hit, but defense is nice to

OSCAR C/B/A

REYSON C/B/A

SOREN C/B/A

ELINCIA C/B/A

TITANIA */*/*

LETHE */*/A

RANULF C/B/A

The supports are all there, you unlocked them, but you can only take a maximum of 5 bonuses. (5 Cs, 2 Bs and a C, 1 A and 1 B. etc.) that way each map you can choose what bonuses work best for you. But what about S Ranks, those special lover/BFF ranks?

The S rank support is a one of a kind, it's DOUBLE that affinities usual bonuses. So for Titania (for the sake of example) who is a Light Affinity character, her usual 7.5% hit bonus and 1.5 Defense bonus become 15% and 3 respectively. The S replaces the A, so it doesn't count as a 4th bonus when choosing support bonuses.

This way, you can decide "Hey, I know Elincia doesn't show up until the end game, but I kinda don't want Ike just sitting with Oscars B support for an entire fucking game" meaning you can trigger supports, you'll be warned "Will change the ending" if it will, and the bonuses remain the same, not breaking the game anymore than supports usually do.

It also adds an extra layer of customization "Hey I know that X has really shitty hit, I'll swap his bonuses around to focus on hit so that he sucks less.

As for gaining points? I think RD pretty much nailed it. Points for EVERYTHING two units do together, shoving, trading, fighting side by side, healing one another etc. etc.

For added bonus, A/S-Rank units gain combination attacks within range of each other, and defend one another if the blow looks to be fatal (and the defending unit will survive, nothing would piss a player off more than Soren leaping in front of an attack meant for Ike, when Oscar was a few feet away) which means even without the bonuses theirs passive benefits to having a support rank with another unit.

The problem that pops up next is of course "But I wont be abler to deploy enough units" and I bring up the squad system I mentioned a long time ago in another post and I'm sleepy now.

[Othin]

From what I remember, FE9 manages A/B/D/E just fine, and fuck F. Also fuck not having to make permanent decisions, but rather randomly and nonsensically equipping/unequipping things. Which makes C a moot point because there's no good way to work around it, so FE9 is just the ideal system.

Note that I skimmed most of your idea because scary wall of text.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Othin

[Anouleth]

A. I'm pretty sure that FE9/10 both told you what bonuses were from supports and which ones weren't.

B. FE8 tells you how many support conversations you can still have in the Supports menu option, between 0 and 5.

C. FE8 supports are also very easy to grind.

D. If you don't understand the use of having higher stats, you are stupid.

E. FE9, 10, 11, and 12 all address this with easy to build supports.

F. Supports don't force you to do anything.

Anyway this idea seems a bit lame, like it makes it too easy. It kind of seems like it takes all of the choice and planning out of supports. You can just support everyone if you want to, and while you're at it, you get double bonuses and bonuses even when the support isn't active, and the game warns you whenever you might do something that can't be undone?

Also both FE11 and FE12 had no limit on the number of supports a unit could have in either direction, although iirc the most units anyone can support is 5 and it's usually more like 3 or 4.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Anouleth

[whase]

my ideas;

show support bonuses like in FE10

build supports like in FE9

have a FE10 style tutorial on supports (can't remember if it actually had one)

unlimited C supports, 5 B supports, 1 A support. why limit the amount of friends one can have?

C support is a FE10 style support conversation, B and A supports are actual FE6-9 style support conversation.

[Just call me AL]

B. FE8 tells you how many support conversations you can still have in the Supports menu option, between 0 and 5.

FE7 did this as well.

E. FE9, 10, 11, and 12 all address this with easy to build supports.

Not every support in FE9 was easy to build, especially to A rank. The only ones in FE9 that come to the top of my head that aren't are Boyd X Mist, Boyd X Titania, and Ike X Titania.

And FEs 7 & 8 have support libraries. And FE10 has FE9's support library. You only had to get one A support to view most (if not all of the) conversations two specific characters had with each other.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Little Al

[Othin]

You could build any FE9 support to A rank just based on deployment, rather than needing to slow down a ton. That's a hell of a lot easier than the previous (comparable) systems.

[Anouleth]

FE7 did this as well.

Not every support in FE9 was easy to build, especially to A rank. The only ones in FE9 that come to the top of my head that fit this description are Boyd X Mist, Boyd X Titania, and Ike X Titania.

What are you talking about? Ike/Titania is actually one of the hardest supports since they need to be deployed together in 26 out of 28 chapters. In comparison, Oscar only needs to be deployed alongside Ike in 11 out of 25 chapters and can be completed before Ike even promotes. Ranulf/Ike only needs 3 deployments out of 6 chapters, and Elincia literally only needs to be deployed in Chapter 27 to automatically have A support available for Final.

Supports in FE9 are so so easy. You don't even have to deploy them in every chapter together, usually even if you only deploy them 2/3rds of the time you'll get A rank before Final. I can't think of any instance where you could fail to get two characters that you're using to A Rank support.

[Just call me AL]

You could build any FE9 support to A rank just based on deployment, rather than needing to slow down a ton. That's a hell of a lot easier than the previous (comparable) systems.

You do realise that I was writing what I wrote down in my previous post with that very fact you mentioned in mind, right? Edited March 13, 2012 by Little Al

[Sunwoo]

The only FE9 supports that really annoyed me in getting them were Ike/Titania and Boyd/Mist. They took forever, I swear. -_-

Actually, all of Titania's GM supports except for Rhys seem to take forever, now that I think about it.

[Just call me AL]

The only FE9 supports that really annoyed me in getting them were Ike/Titania and Boyd/Mist. They took forever, I swear. -_-

That's exactly the point I'm trying to get across here.

Actually, all of Titania's GM supports except for Rhys seem to take forever, now that I think about it.

Actually, it's just half of her supports in that case. There's Titania X Mist to be considered. Edited March 13, 2012 by Little Al

[Anouleth]

That's exactly the point I'm trying to get across here.

No, it isn't:

"Not every support in FE9 was easy to build, especially to A rank. The only ones in FE9 that come to the top of my head that fit this description are Boyd X Mist, Boyd X Titania, and Ike X Titania."

Let's go through this point by point:

-Not all supports in FE9 are easy to build

-The only supports that I can think of [that are easy to build] are Boyd x Mist, Boyd x Titania, and Ike x Titania

I get that you actually meant the opposite of what you said, but even then it's not really true. If you're using Boyd and Mist and care at all about supporting them, you really have no reason not to deploy them all the time. While you might miss out once or twice, 17/20 is still easy.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Anouleth

[Sunwoo]

That's exactly the point I'm trying to get across here.

Just chipping in my opinion here.

Actually, it's just half of her supports in that case. There's Titania X Mist to be considered.

Titania/Mist still took me quite a while, at least.

[Othin]

You do realise that I was writing what I wrote down in my previous post with that very fact you mentioned in mind, right?

And yet you still managed to be completely wrong. Funny how that works.

[Just call me AL]

No, it isn't:

"Not every support in FE9 was easy to build, especially to A rank. The only ones in FE9 that come to the top of my head that fit this description are Boyd X Mist, Boyd X Titania, and Ike X Titania."

Let's go through this point by point:

-Not all supports in FE9 are easy to build

-The only supports that I can think of [that are NOT easy to build] are Boyd x Mist, Boyd x Titania, and Ike x Titania

Way to misread my statement.

I get that you actually meant the opposite of what you said, but even then it's not really true. If you're using Boyd and Mist and care at all about supporting them, you really have no reason not to deploy them all the time. While you might miss out once or twice, 17/20 is still easy.

Let's just say I'm not too keen on waiting on two characters that join early enough to matter in usefulness terms to get an A support when the game is a few chapters away from being finished. Edited March 13, 2012 by Little Al

[Othin]

That's not difficulty or even really hassle to build the support; it just makes the supports less likely to matter because of when they happen. And that's not an issue with the system itself; it's just the values the system uses, which can be changed easily enough.

[Just call me AL]

That's not difficulty or even really hassle to build the support; it just makes the supports less likely to matter because of when they happen. And that's not an issue with the system itself; it's just the values the system uses, which can be changed easily enough.

Even so, slow supports aren't my cup of tea, even when filling up support libraries.

@italics: Don't you need something like a Gameshark or Action Replay to do something like that? Because I can't think of any natural way to do that.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Little Al

[General Banzai]

I personally feel that 9 handled the supports about as well as someone would have hoped. Perhaps it could have given more potential support options, but otherwise they were simple to get and clearly labeled what the bonuses were.

[Othin]

I would quote the part of my post that demonstrates that your complaint is not an inherent part of the system if not for the fact that you apparently took enough notice of it to italicize it yourself. Unless half the game for an A support is too long? Oh, I see. I just mean if the same system is used for future releases.

I really can't see how GBA-style supports can be considered to be less slow when they're the ones that require you to slow down a ton, especially if you want them early.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Othin

[BrightBow]

I think FE3 and FE5 handled them best. The bonuses exist from the get go. So even units that otherwise didn't gave you much reason to deploy them had a reason to be used. Tanya in FE5 being a good example with her support for Dagda and Othin. Because the supports exist immediately you don't have to deploy her on half the maps before you get the bonuses, which is good since her support-bonuses are the only reason you might consider deploying her in the first place.

And I would say that in that regard FE11-12 were the worst of both worlds. No support conversations, yet you still have to keep everyone deployed and just to make things worse, the game doesn't even displaying the level of the support so you have to make the calculations yourself.

[Thor Odinson]

12 did have things that were similar to support conversations via base conversations. They didn't include everyone, though. Like OgmaNavarre being a two-way support but no conversation. I was sad :<

[Onmi]

Well my idea for the system came after playing Bastion, when I realized "Hey cool even though I brought 1 weapon upgrade, I'm not locked to it, so I can customize my weapons to best fit the upcoming situation" and applied that logic to the support system.

Game Design Rule #1. You aren't making an arcade game, don't deliberately fuck over your players. To me, you etc. the Support system is a mechanic we pretty much mastered, but only because we went online and got information to master it. Johnny Q. isn't going to think "Hey new Fire Emblem, gotta jump on Serenes Forest to get all the juicy juicy mechanical info" they think "What the hell does this do?" and 9.99/10 times wind up fucking it up. Unless you want to wind up giving a tutorial to the players about the intricacies of the support system (lame, breaks flow) simply letting them unlock them all, works. ESPECIALLY since there's all that plot and character development.

For the record when I said "Bonuses for A. Supports even when they are not active" I meant "Support Attack/Defense" not "+ Stat" (and SA/SD is being added to Awakening anyway. Then again I would probably tie that to 'Anyone I have a maxed support with And/Or family, close friends)

It's in no way meant to make the gameplay 'Easier' simply more customizable, and it lets you fit more plot into the support conversations, without having to fear that your player will miss information. E.G. a lot of old supports have repeated information because "Well what if they didn't get x support' so you can let your characters develop EVEN MORE (I like well rounded characters)

And just again, for the record, those were not my complaints with the support system, simply common complaints I hear. well that and "The support system in FE6-8/11-12 is really, really dumb"

You still have to build those supports (Hi ho FE10 Support system, I think you got it right for once. not with the everyone supporting everyone bit, but the point system) and you'll never get more bonuses outside of what you would get in a normal FE game from 6->10

Also, no FE9 doesn't tell you what the bonuses are, 10 did, and it's the ONLY game that did. I'm not saying the system is flawless, simply that it's better than what we got.

[Othin]

You're attaching way too much "need" to supports. They're a minor, optional bonus. You can't fuck yourself over by screwing them up; you'll be fine no matter what you do with them.

FE9/10 had optional tutorials. Those worked out just fine.

[Onmi]

You're attaching way too much "need" to supports. They're a minor, optional bonus. You can't fuck yourself over by screwing them up; you'll be fine no matter what you do with them.

FE9/10 had optional tutorials. Those worked out just fine.

How is suggesting a new gameplay dynamic 'attaching too much need'? It's not like I'm saying "Well if you don't then you're right fucked now aren't you?" I'm saying "Here's a way to increase the customization of each character and by extension your army." It's an element of the game it should be expanded, it should be given complexity.

Unless you think we were better off without the Weapon Triangle, I mean FE1-3 certainly didn't need it, but are you going to dig your heels into the ground because FE4 came along and changed up the weapon dynamics? I certainly don't need to obey the weapon triangle to beat a Fire Emblem game, sure it's harder on me but there's no NEED to follow it. same thing albeit different with supports. There's no need to have them, but with them the game gets that much more customizable. Why not further improve that system of stabilizability. Unless of course the introduction of the Reaver weapons blew your mind because they reversed the triangle.

I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm honestly trying to grasp where you're coming from, why not improve something that's in the game?, something has problems (and FE11/12 certainly showed they have a LOT of kinks left to work out) so why not address complaints?, why not discuss?, theorize?, talk. Instead of going "Lets let everything remain the same" why not say "Well here's where I can see the flaws, and here's what I would change up Based/not based upon your own suggestions"?

If you don't have anything to add, then why post? Or just say "I think the system should stay as it was in X"

[Othin]

Your fundamental premise behind the switching system is that people need a way to not permanently fuck themselves over with supports. I'm saying that the consequences are never so harsh that said fucking over could happen. Again, supports are a nice bonus. They're not something you ever need to do "correctly", so there's no reason for an option to fix "incorrect" supports. The system should keep the permanent consequences it's had in previous games: permanent consequences are good; they make decisions meaningful. They make the player into a military commander who has to take decisions seriously rather than magically fixing everything.

As I already said, I think the system should stay as it was in FE9.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Othin

[Laureola]

I'm liking the grid pick and choose system. The S double bonus seem a bit much though and I wouldn't complain if S ranks were locked while the others were unlocked. A "military commander" would keep things flexible, not rigidly force units together "forevar."

As for support gain, I'd rather have it by maps deployed together on and not how many times they fondled each other on the battlefield while no one was looking.