Vicious Sal Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 I think his leveling doesnt need to be as slow as a laguz's but the Level 40 idea works better than 3 chancellor classes... my only concern is how the promos will work with it, because he does have forced promotions. That's not hard to do, it's quite easy to find the data for forced promotions and those can be altered in HEx editors so that the game ignores them. I think replacing Chancellor with Priestess and replacing Light Mage/Sage/Priestess all with the Chancellor class is good, he just needs higher base magic. I think having all magic upon promotion is fine for him, and him starting out with just light magic and/or staffs (because you don't have a single staff user except like Oliver lol). You can't replace priestess with chancellor since Micaiah still needs that class. Ligh mage & sage might be possible to alter, since Micaiah won't be using those anymore. The lower magic is because Light magic is only 3 MT, Worm is 9 Mt, and his growth kick in quick enough. it's also why his spd & Str are quite high, he has 5 Str, worm is 9 WT, so he loses 4 AS, 11 - 4 = 7. That's Micaiah's base speed as well. He has a better growth and he has an existing STr growth as well so in the end he'll be able to carry Dark magic. Light magic upon promotion seems quite good, since he can otherwise just take light magic which weighs less, giving him more AS, and just have his high magic growth do the damage output. Their transformation gauges don't go up if they counterattack, which will be often. 10 Defense won't be able to save them in that instance. Of course, they aren't actually worried about this until the latter half of Part 1. On top of that, their growths are low that each level up won't matter too much anyway even if they will get a lot. Some playtesting needs to be done because we obviously can't theorymon everything. It's true their transformation gauge goes up slowly, but they still do massive damage and take far less than the DB in these chapters. You are right about needing playtesting. I'm currently working on hex editing, but i've just begun, so don't expect miracles or anything yet. =p Their speed isn't keeping up with the enemies btw and they still have to go through hell untransformed, even if they hit harder and take longer to kill. They will get doubled by a lot of things once you hit like 1-6. Also, Muarim's more or less invincible when he's transformed but I don't see anyone complaining about how broken he is. 1-2 range doesn't make a difference when you are not dying. Same concept applies to Nailah and the Black Knight. It just happens you get them earlier and chapters also take forever to finish with them, too. this is true, but in all examples, those units are around for only a small amount of time. In any case, we probably should playtest this first, and that won't happen for a while. RR games tend to be a naturally more balanced once we figure out what promotion times we should use. i'll take your word for it. The forced promotions are luckily easily nullified when hex editted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 I meant promotion times as in.. are they deleveled from 20/20/xx or 10/10/xx? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 I meant promotion times as in.. are they deleveled from 20/20/xx or 10/10/xx? In my opinion it's not just base stats from how they are going to turn out. From what I saw you now have taken the stats so that with the current growths, they will reach their averages. But that could mean you get an insanely good/ bad unit here and there. Renning having 0 defense is something that doesn't really work well. So if we adjust his DEF growth a bit we can raise his base. That's what I was looking at the most, seeing how units are perfectly usable with a little tweaking. As I said, I'm working on the list right now, and i'll post it later, you can take a look at it and see if there is stuff you agree, disagree etc with. As for Sephiran, I'd say use dark magic, since you have oliver as well. ;) That, and people always raged about not having enough dark magic users in RD. And it's not that hard to edit the stuff they sell in the shops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 From what I saw you now have taken the stats so that with the current growths, they will reach their averages.Yes, so if you make it so those averages are the 10/10/xx averages and not the 20/20/xx averages you see a significant shift in the base stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Yes, so if you make it so those averages are the 10/10/xx averages and not the 20/20/xx averages you see a significant shift in the base stats. The problem with that is that you might have some stats that are on par with the chapter your in, and some are to low (renning once again), if you raise his promotion times, the stats that were good will be raised as well, which could cause the unit to be out of line again. But let's not discuss it any further and just take action, from the current list, which units do you think need a different promotion time? And thus, have their stats raised. Meanwhile i'm working on my list, so we can compare in the end as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 Basically, every Part 1 Beorc save Tanith needs that treatment. I don't know what to do with Sigrun, though, aside from boost her base level... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 (edited) Basically, every Part 1 Beorc save Tanith needs that treatment. I don't know what to do with Sigrun, though, aside from boost her base level... I just removed the herons from the RR list and just RR them with each other. Funnily enough, because leanne stays the same, and reason/rafiel with. The list jumps around a bit. And guess what. There is someone who switches with himself. And that person is...... IKE Now I have to adjust all the stats first, guess i'll be busy for a bit. =p EDIT: How did you actually adjust the laguz levels? Most of the time it's Lvx 1.5 but for elincia you adjusted it to level 30. Even though 41x0.67 doesn't equal 30. I know it's because of Third tier, and level 30 is 3rd tier for laguz, but is it normally always beorc Lv x 0.67 or laguz lv x 1.5? Edited August 24, 2012 by Vicious Sal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missile Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Bastian 0 skill ? Volke 0 speed but 9 res ? Why ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 (edited) Bastian 0 skill ? Volke 0 speed but 9 res ? Why ? It's kinda what Lord Raven and I have been talking about the last page... Currently all units have been just de-leveled with their growths, so say a unit has 80% Hp growth, and is being leveled down, every lovel he goes down, he loses 0.8 HP. So after 5 levels down he has lost 5 HP. because of that, some units end up with 0 in stats. And that's what we are trying to adjust a bit. EDIT: With the herons shifting stuff around, Elincia has now switched with sigrun. This however, poses a problem, there are no Tier 2 classes that go to queen. We could alter a falcoknight so that it promotes to Queen, with focus on swords, but I think it's easier to just adjust her bases to - 2 levels. (from 20/1 to 19). This way we can ignore promo bonuses and just adjust her growths a bit. Most of them go up by five or ten percent. It's nothing major. The biggest problem with that idea is that even though she has her level 19 bases, she is tier three and still has stun because she is a lv 1 queen. Nutshel: - Lv1 Queen with Lv 19 bases (no promo gains, adjusted growths) or - Alter a Falcoknight to main swords, adjust bases to lv 19, take promo gains into consideration, etc etc. [Just seems harder to me] Edited August 24, 2012 by Vicious Sal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Ok, I have quite some updates! I ran into THREE major problems unit wise: - Volke is a thief, thieves don't have promo bonuses, so I used the Myrm -> SM ones, furthermore, his bases still need tweaking, but more important, we need to use the generic thief & roque classes for him, and have the roque class promote to his assassin one. - Elincia, As statsed above, since she also goes to a class she doesn't utilise, just lower her bases accordingly, ignore "would have been promo bonuses" and just raise her growths so that she end up average again. - Last one is Lehran, but I reckon my idea would make him viable, and also not overpowered. Since I Shifted the herons around, the order changed. Ike = Ike because of that, go figure. Anyway, I fixed a couple of small errors here and there, Micaiah having 47 Hp for example, it's 46, and Jill having 13 Magic while her cap is 10. Small stuff only. I also adjusted some of the stats because I round down everything that goes from 0.05 to 0.45, and I round up from 0.5 to 0.95. I don't care if stats were lowered or raised, they have been adjusted according to this rule in my sheet. Now then, onto the actual sheet: Green = Fine, and also FINE INGAME, the units are completely viable theoretically and are very comparable to their original counterparts. [Look at Skrimir - Muarim or Janaff - Nealuchi for example!] Green + Red Words = Stats are "correct" but they are completely out of wack game wise. volke would die pronto for example. Mist and Micaiah are a bit odd for having their names red, I was thinking about raising their stats a bit, but i'm not sure. Micaiah for being the "Gotoh archetype" and Mist because I'm not sure she can handle herself with those stats. Yellow = Haven't looked at it yet, mostly because I don't know how you calculated the Laguz > Beorc level difference etc. Red = Wrong, wrong stats, level, etc all because I switched the herons around. I haven't done those yet because of the above mentioned Laguz > Beorc level difference. FE10%20RR.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 EDIT: How did you actually adjust the laguz levels? Most of the time it's Lvx 1.5 but for elincia you adjusted it to level 30. Even though 41x0.67 doesn't equal 30. I know it's because of Third tier, and level 30 is 3rd tier for laguz, but is it normally always beorc Lv x 0.67 or laguz lv x 1.5? Sort of arbitrarily. I wasn't too worried because I didn't think someone would take it seriously. Elincia's really powerful because of equipment, Stun, and Physic though, so I would keep it at 25-30. Bastian 0 skill ? Volke 0 speed but 9 res ? Why ?I assumed they got their stats by Level 20/20 promotions.Sal, you should do a patch where Herons are unshifted and where Herons are shifted. People really love games that break really easily, so it could potentially be kind of fun. FE6 RR is fun because you basically have an infinite move dancer. For the shifted one, you should shift them differently too; probably put Reyson in Leanne's place (because Rafiel will get murdered in her place), Leanne in Rafiel's place, and Rafiel in Reyson's place. People have done weird shifts like that before (FE8 RR and FE6 RR are examples - Fae took Zeiss' spot, who took Dieck's spot, who took Fae's spot; I forget what we did with the entire Tana/Kyle/Ephraim snafu). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Sort of arbitrarily. I wasn't too worried because I didn't think someone would take it seriously. Elincia's really powerful because of equipment, Stun, and Physic though, so I would keep it at 25-30. I assumed they got their stats by Level 20/20 promotions. Sal, you should do a patch where Herons are unshifted and where Herons are shifted. People really love games that break really easily, so it could potentially be kind of fun. FE6 RR is fun because you basically have an infinite move dancer. For the shifted one, you should shift them differently too; probably put Reyson in Leanne's place (because Rafiel will get murdered in her place), Leanne in Rafiel's place, and Rafiel in Reyson's place. People have done weird shifts like that before (FE8 RR and FE6 RR are examples - Fae took Zeiss' spot, who took Dieck's spot, who took Fae's spot; I forget what we did with the entire Tana/Kyle/Ephraim snafu). I Guess I'll just take a look into every Laguz & beorc switch around and put their levels there where the stats are up to par with the game. Even the first version is still a long ways off, but If I finish it, I'll see what I can do. I just spoke with Jedi & tootache, and I'm convinced I should also take a look into Beorc swapped with beorc & Laguz swapped with laguz now. But that's for later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 idk I think there should be multiple diff versions of this patch then... I think there should be a "Raven version" which has triple herons and beorc/laguz swaps and "Sal version" where we do beorc w/ beorc and laguz w/ laguz and 3 herons shifted. I think another point of RR is to significantly alter the gameplay, and I feel that is done if we do swap every unit with each other (though Herons would be an obvious exception, I'm not particularly opposed to us doing weird stuff with Herons but at the same time I'd love to see what it'd be like). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 idk I think there should be multiple diff versions of this patch then... I think there should be a "Raven version" which has triple herons and beorc/laguz swaps and "Sal version" where we do beorc w/ beorc and laguz w/ laguz and 3 herons shifted. I think another point of RR is to significantly alter the gameplay, and I feel that is done if we do swap every unit with each other (though Herons would be an obvious exception, I'm not particularly opposed to us doing weird stuff with Herons but at the same time I'd love to see what it'd be like). I'm not at all opposed to a Raven Version, a Sal Version, A Draftable version, a Balancing attempt version etc. But it does require a lot of time for each and every version sadly. Because Let's say I make the Raven version, where herons are shifted as well. To make the Sal version, I'd have to Redo every single bit starting from rafiels original spot and ending at where he is swapped. Even if only one unit is shifted differently, it affects the entire list of units in between, and you can't easily copy paste that for the second time. I also would like to play with multiple herons on the field, don't get me wrong, but for building every single patch, it requires loads of effort and time. =/ On a side not, I'm going through the yellow and red fields now, the trickiest will be the dawn brigade. Afterwards, probly tomorrow, i'll take a look at beorc - beorc, laguz - laguz RR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 Well I don't think a draftable version is necessary, the purpose of a draft is to work with what we've got and make decisions based upon what we have got for the rules. Balancing a game for drafts is unnecessary. Beorc-laguz switching is something we should ask a whole bunch of people, because I would love Beorc and Laguz all being in the same unit pool and switching based on that. Dragons in the prologue is fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) Well I don't think a draftable version is necessary, the purpose of a draft is to work with what we've got and make decisions based upon what we have got for the rules. Balancing a game for drafts is unnecessary. Beorc-laguz switching is something we should ask a whole bunch of people, because I would love Beorc and Laguz all being in the same unit pool and switching based on that. Dragons in the prologue is fun. I was just making examples, Currently there are three versions, Yours, with herons mixxed in, mine, with herons not mixed in, and a last version with Laguz swapped with laguz, (no herons again) & beorc swapped with beorc. In any case, I have finished the first of these, the only thing is, Which heron should i swap with which? Also, people, throw in suggestions for the bases & growths of the characters in red! Sanaki is another odd ball, since she has no T2 or T1 outfits I gave her 20 levels, bumping her to T3, but since she now misses out on half her levels, her growths have been doubled. This is still wrong, since the bases are not up to game standard, but those are her theoretical RR bases. [basically every level she goes up is 2 levels in theory] FE10%20RR.htm Edited August 25, 2012 by Vicious Sal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted August 25, 2012 Author Share Posted August 25, 2012 Isn't there some way to make a class for her that promotes to Empress? Which heron should i swap with which?As long as they're all swapped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Isn't there some way to make a class for her that promotes to Empress? As long as they're all swapped. It would probably involve taking a generic Fire Sage class and adjusting the growths, also causing to raise all fire sages' stats in game. At least that's my theory... =/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted August 26, 2012 Author Share Posted August 26, 2012 You could make a new class similar to fire sage... As in, editing an existing class you know won't be used. For example, light Mage/sage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 You could make a new class similar to fire sage... As in, editing an existing class you know won't be used. For example, light Mage/sage Light Mage & Sage will be in use though, for having three Chancellor classes with different caps etc. I'll have to look into it, but currently, I wouldn't know if there are any available classes with the list we have now. =/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotguner159 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Light Mage & Sage will be in use though, for having three Chancellor classes with different caps etc. I'll have to look into it, but currently, I wouldn't know if there are any available classes with the list we have now. =/ If Ilyana is already an Arch Sage, then Thunder Mage and Thunder Sage are available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Marc Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 (edited) Or Fire Mage/Fire Sage (M) since Tormod is an Archsage too. With both you actually have place for Elincia and Sanaki. Edited August 26, 2012 by Jean-Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Marc Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 (edited) Just noticed I double posted. Could this post be deleted please? Edited August 26, 2012 by Jean-Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Cheers guys, I hadn't the time to look it up, I'll look into how feasible it will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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