What is the point of seriously using Zihark

[Starwave]

Disclaimer: Despite being an Edward fan, I am in no way telling people to use him over Zihark, nor is this a stealth tier list change thread. Nor is it a stealth ranking thread either!!!

Anyway with that out of the way.... Zihark. What is the point of seriously using this guy in the game. By seriously "using him" I mean training him up to his full potential.

TL;DR

-If you seriously end up using Zihark, you end up depriving EXP for the other members of the dawn brigade

-Mia will be better regardless of what you do with Zihark (especially if you bring him over to the Greil mercenaries)

-Mia (or Edward if you took the iniative / got lucky) will better in part IV

Zihark joins in part 1-6, and for the remaining 4 chapters he kicks ass. That said, even in part 1 he has his drawbacks. Since he's a pre-promote he ends up draining EXP from other potential candidates like Jill and Nolan (or Eddie and Aran if they strike your fancy). At this point in the game, the only way to raise him is feeding him bosses or by using BEXP. Regardless, he's one of your go to guys in part I, but seriously using him here just ends hampering the dawn brigade as a whole (i'll get into that soon).

In part II he's nonexistant.

In part III he's reusable in 3-6,12,13 but he's nowhere near as good as he used to be. If you swap him over to the Greil mercenaries, not only do you end up screwing over the Dawn Brigade, you'll also realize that he has no place on the GM. It's a team filled with super stars (Ike, Titania, Haar, etc) and Mia. Even if you trained up Zihark from before, Mia will ALWAYS be the better swordmaster. She has 6 chapters of experience on him, starts at lower lvl and significantly better growths. Mia has better HP, strength, skill, luck and defense growths, resistance and equal speed growths. This is my fundamental problem with Zihark. If you raise him up, he has to compete with Mia who almost always ends up turning out better because of her noticeably better growths, better team, availability and lower level to take advantage of those growths. He has his time to shine in part I, but if actually ends up killing things he'll only end up stunting Nolan / Jill's growth.

In part IV he has to compete with Mia (or Edward if you trained him)

Now this might go against the general opinion here, but the only other swordsman who can even compete with Mia is Edward, and ONLY for part IV.

Here's how I see it.

-If you raise Eddie from 1-P > 1-6, and he turns out good you can still use him. He's undoubtedly worse than Zihark, but again using Edward alongside Zihark couldn't hurt (since... honestly who does Edward have to compete with in the dawn brigade?!?). After part I, Edward gets his time in the sun in 3-6,12, and 13. If he's swordmaster by then, you can continue to use him and build him up. A properly raised Edward is (most of the time) comparable to Zihark statistically. If Eddie ends up getting stat screwed, that's it for him, he's out of the game.

-Lucia... err isn't in the game.

-I guess Stefan is a fail safe for those who didn't raise up their swordmasters and Vague katti is nice.

-You get to use Mia in part III. She gets loads of time to get a ton of experience, and chances are she'll end up capping her speed and skill stats shortly before part III is over. BEXP exists if she ended up getting strength screwed, but with that 45% growth in STR, it's not likely.

-In part IV, you'll go with Mia as your Trueblade pick unless you've been raising up Edward. I don't see a point of raising Zihark (unless you like him) to becoming a trueblade in part IV since his growths are noticeably worse than the Mia / Eddie.

That's pretty much it, yeah. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.

[sunshineYON]

This game has balancing issues. There is no reason to use a lot of characters, barring if your "better" characters died and needed replacement.

[Aircalipoor]

Zihark joins in part 1-6, and for the remaining 4 chapters he kicks ass.

In part III he's reusable in 3-6,12,13

You answered your own question. Using Zihark contributes positively for ~8 chapters. A good point of seriously using Zihark. Sure, using Zihark throughout the whole game is ineffective/inefficient, but a lot of units are like this, especially in this messy game.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Aircalipoor

[Gryz]

I (and I am sure many others) agree that there is no point in raising Zihark to Trueblade status. You could make the argument there is "no point" in using any character not deemed optimal. Personally, I think Edward isn't worth raising as well, and I only bother with Mia. But hey, it doesn't hurt to change-up teams.

Some other things:

You don't need a "Trueblade pick." The game doesn't force you to use any Swordmaster or prevent you from using none or several of them. Using Mia doesn't lock you out of raising Edward/Zihark.

It's perfectly reasonable to raise Nolan and Jill to a competent level while also using Zihark to help out in part 1 (yes, including killing enemies). I think too much is being made of Zihark's "exp draining" or "exp deprivation".

[Anouleth]

-If you raise Eddie from 1-P > 1-6, and he turns out good you can still use him. He's undoubtedly worse than Zihark, but again using Edward alongside Zihark couldn't hurt (since... honestly who does Edward have to compete with in the dawn brigade?!?). After part I, Edward gets his time in the sun in 3-6,12, and 13. If he's swordmaster by then, you can continue to use him and build him up. A properly raised Edward is (most of the time) comparable to Zihark statistically. If Eddie ends up getting stat screwed, that's it for him, he's out of the game.

So there's no point in using Zihark, because Edward might be as good?

I (and I am sure many others) agree that there is no point in raising Zihark to Trueblade status. You could make the argument there is "no point" in using any character not deemed optimal. Personally, I think Edward isn't worth raising as well, and I only bother with Mia. But hey, it doesn't hurt to change-up teams.

I don't think Mia is particularly worth training either. Trueblades in this game are rather overrated.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Anouleth

[Vicious Sal]

"In part III he's reusable in 3-6,12,13 but he's nowhere near as good as he used to be. If you swap him over to the Greil mercenaries, not only do you end up screwing over the Dawn Brigade,"

So he is not worth it, but if you take him away you screw the entire db over....?

Edward on normal mode can promote to sm in 1-6, by then he is also an exp drain, when they are rather similar. Also, on average zihark is only two points away from caps for str, there is an energy drop in the db. Also bexp is easily used on him since he rams spd and skill easily and then can focus on other stats. That, and growths dont matter, since caps are almost identical ( male caps are better than females, and his affinity is better as well) its only one point of strength. They are so similar anyway, zihark, mia and edward are all viable for training. Lucia is salvageable but a lot of effort, and stefan is a fail safe. I dont see any problems with any of the three of them really.

[Melonhead]

Edward/Mia are really the best options you have. Lucia is just... no.

Stefan is a failsafe, and really not all that useful if you have an SS sword user by then.

As for Zihark... He's great in part 1, good in part 3, and - if not trained, bad in part 4.

Part 1, you should decide for him or Edward, and use him sparingly. Don't completely forget him however.

Part 3 is really where you need to use him if you want him, as Mia comes into play, but he normally only has 3 chapters. Owch.

Part 4 he can be a good Crowned Trueblade for the Silver army if not trained much, but aside from that, not very salvageable.

I would go with Edward, and Mia if you like them.

[NinjaMonkey]

Part 3 is really where you need to use him if you want him, as Mia comes into play, but he normally only has 3 chapters. Owch.

Two of which are Laguz-killing chapters (and aren't Laguz worth more EXP per kill than the regular human enemies?).

[Just call me AL]

As for Zihark... He's great in part 1, good in part 3, and - if not trained, bad in part 4.

What you said here can also easily apply to Edward. Only replace "great" with "decent".

Part 3 is really where you need to use him if you want him, as Mia comes into play, but he normally only has 3 chapters. Owch.

Again, the same can be said for Edward. The only difference between the two, however, is that Edward doesn't have access to Paragon until promotion. And I could be using BEXP that I'm pumping into him what I could pump into Nolan and Jill. Besides, two of the chapters you mentioned, like Ninjamonkey pointed out, are filled with enemy Laguz. EXP shouldn't be too hard to raise in those two chapters. Especially with Paragon. And since Edward and Zihark are so similar statistically, does it really matter if I decide to raise Edward over Zihark or not?

Part 4 he can be a good Crowned Trueblade for the Silver army if not trained much, but aside from that, not very salvageable.

Again, the same can be said for Edward. Edited May 28, 2012 by Fancy Grunt

[Loki Laufeyson]

Zihark is one of those guys where you basically gotta decide who you rather have on your (active) team. Eddie or him? Its doable to do both but yeah. Zihark has a higher base level than Edwardovich would have by the time he joins but if you are planning on using Ed, nows the time to decide. Do we slap Paragon on Zihark for a little bit or put it on Jill? Decisions.... When part 3 rolls around, its "do i keep using Edwardo? Or just go with Zihark?" But like Edmund gets Caladbolg which really helps him. Plus on Ike's team, we got Mia whos probably seeing a lot of use and some nice levels. So there comes decision time again. "Leave Ziggy to the DBs or have him defect?" If he does defect, hes probably (most likely) at even a lower level than Mia at that time. So is it worth it? In the DB chapters of part 3, Zihark is feeling the pain of not having good durability. If Eddard is actually promoted by that time, he might have better defenses (with Caladbolg) and that nice support from Nolan.

So its really up to the player whether or not they should use Zihark. Ive used him quite a few times. He ends up decent. (and i cant believe im saying this) But Mia does do it better and possibly Edward too.

Stefan? lol...only if you didnt bother with any of that lot and wanted a Trueblade. Lucia? Pfffft loooooool.

[MacLovin]

Zihark has earth.Db has 3 earthsfiona doesn't count.Ziharks good combat helps the Db more than Mia helps the gms.I also prefer Zihark to Eddie, even though wrath/resolve is a fun gimmick.but resolve/adept is fun too!Oh, and we can bexp+paragon zihark to something like 15/1 3rd tier by part 3.no biggie.Also, Eddie does have his uses, but in HM, post ch 1-5, Zihark is preferable imo.Eddies saves turns in HM earlygame, when nolan+sothe duo isn't enough.and 1-p too.But, trueblades are wayyy overrated, crap range average move.

[Vorena]

I think the point of using Zihark seriously and to full potential is to not screw over other people in the team. By choosing to use him, you have a useable unit in Part 1 with no needed training. You do not really need to feed him KOs at all if your raising other units. Pretty much he is another unit you do not mind giving EXP too if you need some enemies slain quickly for a particular turn. Depending upon how you play of course.

And he provides that 15% evasion. I am not sure how quickly he can get it up in the time span of Part 1. Anyway, he sort of makes training Edward obsolete because he no longer does anything unique, and I see no advantage to having two swordmasters when you have 2 chapters of laguz to get through. By part 3, there is no excuse to not train him anymore. The other will have been promoted by now and likely be around level 3 if you never used Zihark much. At this point, I think the argument for using Zihark is because he has chapters in which he is a unique unit that can perform well. Mia is not a uniquely exceptional unit. Pretty much any non-mage unit on Greil team will be fought over for who wants to be trained. So, not training will not be a problem.

With that in mind, I do not see why Zihark could not make it to endgame status and continually used. He gets chapters to increase his levels uniquely over Mia and an extra hand is useful for splitting up in Part 4. Also, Trueblades are useful in Hard Mode for killing the Auras and damaging Ashera and taken out those spirits. Certain units like Haar or Gatrie cannot double these enemies. Actually, I believe they are the only non-laguz units with a high enough speed cap to double the auras without the aid of a dragon skill. There is a free Alondite for some sword user later on, and I think a TrueBlade makes a really good usage for it. Not necessary when you have laguz royals, ike with Alondite, and Elincia with Amiti, but still.

[MacLovin]

I think the point of using Zihark seriously and to full potential is to not screw over other people in the team. By choosing to use him, you have a useable unit in Part 1 with no needed training. You do not really need to feed him KOs at all if your raising other units. Pretty much he is another unit you do not mind giving EXP too if you need some enemies slain quickly for a particular turn. Depending upon how you play of course.

And he provides that 15% evasion. I am not sure how quickly he can get it up in the time span of Part 1. Anyway, he sort of makes training Edward obsolete because he no longer does anything unique, and I see no advantage to having two swordmasters when you have 2 chapters of laguz to get through. By part 3, there is no excuse to not train him anymore. The other will have been promoted by now and likely be around level 3 if you never used Zihark much. At this point, I think the argument for using Zihark is because he has chapters in which he is a unique unit that can perform well. Mia is not a uniquely exceptional unit. Pretty much any non-mage unit on Greil team will be fought over for who wants to be trained. So, not training will not be a problem.

With that in mind, I do not see why Zihark could not make it to endgame status and continually used. He gets chapters to increase his levels uniquely over Mia and an extra hand is useful for splitting up in Part 4. Also, Trueblades are useful in Hard Mode for killing the Auras and damaging Ashera and taken out those spirits. Certain units like Haar or Gatrie cannot double these enemies. Actually, I believe they are the only non-laguz units with a high enough speed cap to double the auras without the aid of a dragon skill. There is a free Alondite for some sword user later on, and I think a TrueBlade makes a really good usage for it. Not necessary when you have laguz royals, ike with Alondite, and Elincia with Amiti, but still.

Whispers and Volke get 40 spd caps too.

[Starwave]

So there's no point in using Zihark, because Edward might be as good?

That does sound silly when I actually type it out. I probably shouldn't have even mentioned Edward, since that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Rather, the fact that Zihark drains EXP from Jill and Nolan (and possibly even Aran) makes him a hindrance for me in part I is whats important.

So he is not worth it, but if you take him away you screw the entire db over....?Edward on normal mode can promote to sm in 1-6, by then he is also an exp drain, when they are rather similar. Also, on average zihark is only two points away from caps for str, there is an energy drop in the db. Also bexp is easily used on him since he rams spd and skill easily and then can focus on other stats. That, and growths dont matter, since caps are almost identical ( male caps are better than females, and his affinity is better as well) its only one point of strength. They are so similar anyway, zihark, mia and edward are all viable for training. Lucia is salvageable but a lot of effort, and stefan is a fail safe. I dont see any problems with any of the three of them really.

I actually make a point to mentioning that transferring him to the GM is a bad idea. Anyway, I probably should have elaborated; i'm talking about hard mode exclusively. Normal mode is noticeably easier to the point where using anybody won't screw you over. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Jill has exclusive dibs on the ED (since she kind of neesd it to get starting). I honestly thinks growths are relevant in hard mode since the only way to manipulate stat growths is via BEXP. You can't battle save abuse for the right stat ups. The 1~2 stat difference in caps are kind of irrelevant imo. (As an aside, according to the averages, Zihark won't cap STR or DEF versus Mia who actually typically ends up capping those stats)

The quick responses to this thread were just what I needed. I suppose I was wrong to condemn Zihark... I guess his ability to help out in part III should not be underestimated. The reason I even decided to make this thread after seeing the overwhelming praise Zihark received both here and on gamefaqs. The support for this guy was unreal.

[MacLovin]

That does sound silly when I actually type it out. I probably shouldn't have even mentioned Edward, since that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Rather, the fact that Zihark drains EXP from Jill and Nolan (and possibly even Aran) makes him a hindrance for me in part I is whats important.

Y'know, it can also be said that Nolan and Jill drain exp from Zihark.

[/size][/color]

I actually make a point to mentioning that transferring him to the GM is a bad idea. Anyway, I probably should have elaborated; i'm talking about hard mode exclusively. Normal mode is noticeably easier to the point where using anybody won't screw you over. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Jill has exclusive dibs on the ED (since she kind of neesd it to get starting). I honestly thinks growths are relevant in hard mode since the only way to manipulate stat growths is via BEXP. You can't battle save abuse for the right stat ups. The 1~2 stat difference in caps are kind of irrelevant imo. (As an aside, according to the averages, Zihark won't cap STR or DEF versus Mia who actually typically ends up capping those stats)

Mia is a good unit on a team of Godly units, most of whom (Haar, Tits, Gatrie, Boyd,Oscar, Neph, Maybe NM Soren) have good 1-2 range. Zihark is on a small team, that needs all the help they can get. Also, I recall the DB chapters being considered as among the hardest in fe10.

The quick responses to this thread were just what I needed. I suppose I was wrong to condemn Zihark... I guess his ability to help out in part III should not be underestimated. The reason I even decided to make this thread after seeing the overwhelming praise Zihark received both here and on gamefaqs. The support for this guy was unreal.

No, Zihark happens to be a good unit in a team that wants him. Eddie is handy, but unless it's NM/EM, he falls behind if he doesn't proc spd on every chapter from 1-P to 1-4.

Point is, Mia's on a team that has many godlike Units.

The DB want every strong unit they can.

[Anouleth]

That does sound silly when I actually type it out. I probably shouldn't have even mentioned Edward, since that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Rather, the fact that Zihark drains EXP from Jill and Nolan (and possibly even Aran) makes him a hindrance for me in part I is whats important.

Aran drains far more EXP than Zihark does. And it's not like he even has significantly better combat to show for it.

I don't see why he's a hindrance in Part 1 either. Nolan is pretty useless in late Part 1 and he's generally worse than Zihark.

[Starwave]

Heh to be perfectly honest, I honestly think Aran is trash / isn't worth using. I only suggested him on a whim.

I suppose Zihark is ancillary to the DB's part I, but Nolan being useless? I don't buy it. On top of being one of the DB that isn't a squishy mess, (good starting lvl, good growths) he becomes a pretty strong warrior for late part 1 / part 3. If Nolan is generally worse then why are his scores higher than Zihark in the "RTU" threads? I tried to avoid bringing those threads into this discussion, but it can't be helped...

You yourself condemn Zihark, but i'm guessing your reasons for doing so are different from mine.

[Espinosa]

How about using Zihark... unseriously? He's good at base as soon as you get him and you don't need to give Edward any experience besides what he gets just to save your skin in the first couple of chapters, allowing you to concentrate on your other units. But nobody says you have to use him after Part 3.

Nolan is pretty overrated I think, though Tarvos and accurate ranged monsterslaying abilities do make him solid even though levelling him isn't easy when playing efficiently.

[Just call me AL]

That does sound silly when I actually type it out. I probably shouldn't have even mentioned Edward, since that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Rather, the fact that Zihark drains EXP from Jill and Nolan (and possibly even Aran) makes him a hindrance for me in part I is whats important.

I can say the same for Edward. Although, I concur with Anouleth about Aran as well.

I'm talking about hard mode exclusively. Normal mode is noticeably easier to the point where using anybody won't screw you over.

Isn't anyone who's good on Hard Mode better in Normal Mode? Zihark's considered an Upper Mid Tier unit on Hard Mode as it is anyways.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Jill has exclusive dibs on the ED (since she kind of neesd it to get starting).

ED?

I honestly thinks growths are relevant in hard mode since the only way to manipulate stat growths is via BEXP. You can't battle save abuse for the right stat ups. The 1~2 stat difference in caps are kind of irrelevant imo.

Bases > Growths. Granted, growths are high in this game. But as a general rule of thumb, units with good bases are often considered better than units with good growths. It's not end result that matters the most anyways. (Like for example, chances are, the results with Edward can be emulated with Zihark.) It's the journey along the way.

(As an aside, according to the averages, Zihark won't cap STR or DEF versus Mia who actually typically ends up capping those stats)

Expanding on my above statement, BEXP can fix whatever Zihark's falling behind on in this game. Because BEXP level ups always raise three stats. Say for instance, if Ike capped Health, Strength, Skill, and Speed, then he'll always get stat ups in Luck, Defense, and Resistance through BEXP on the rest of his level ups. Edited May 29, 2012 by Fancy Grunt

[Starwave]

ED stands for Energy Drop

◥▶◀◤

[Anouleth]

Heh to be perfectly honest, I honestly think Aran is trash / isn't worth using. I only suggested him on a whim.

I suppose Zihark is ancillary to the DB's part I, but Nolan being useless? I don't buy it. On top of being one of the DB that isn't a squishy mess, (good starting lvl, good growths) he becomes a pretty strong warrior for late part 1 / part 3. If Nolan is generally worse then why are his scores higher than Zihark in the "RTU" threads? I tried to avoid bringing those threads into this discussion, but it can't be helped...

Entirely because Nolan exists in early Part 1 and is better in Part 3.

[1st Mate Bob]

Really, if you're a FEvet, then you'll be able to beat these games no matter who you use.

That said, whichever character is "better" doesn't really matter at that point, and you will wind up just using people that you like.

[Vorena]

Is it really possible to beat Lunatic Reverse or Lunatic with whatever characters you want in FE12? I thought this was like the one game where you really have to use specific units and abuse the hell out of the game at times to make sure it does what it should.

But point taken. FE10 is pretty low stats enough you can use anyone you want with varying degrees of success, but still complete the game.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Dark Pegasi

[Colonel M]

FE12 (and I presume FE13) are probably the two main exceptions with it. You can slide with some of the more mediocre characters like Roger and Navarre in FE12, but using someone like Astram at the point where you get him (aside from being Ballistician bait). I guess in theory you could rig stats or kind of use the in-base boosters / Rainbow Potion / Everyone's Condition too, but some characters are nearly at the point of unsalvagable.