Loki Laufeyson Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 It's ridiculous to say Kieran is anywhere near as good as Haar, but people are holding Kieran's speed against him while they had absolutely no problem with Haar's for the most part. These are all the votes that hold his speed against him significantly, there are others, but they just say his speed isn't great, not that it's terrible or anything worse than mediocre, which it is and he doesn't have anything like flight, obscene strength/def, availability to make up for it like Haar. I think the thing that just kills me is that in many of these ratings people had no problems with Geof's speed when he has the exact same base and all of 5% more growth, in addition to starting 4 levels higher. Hell, I don't disagree with the general scores; I just feel like people are significantly overstating one of Kieran's flaws, and not even his biggest one. Yeah Kieran's speed really isnt the thing that can hold him back. People discount Haar's speed mostly because hes amazing in every other thing ever. Kieran sadly, doesnt have that luxury. Hes a good unit but nowhere near Haar caliber. Kieran can be seen as redundant and some of his availability is against him. Hes got more than a lot of units but yeah. Geoff just...isnt good when he shows up again. Even in 3-9, hes having problems where Kieran really isnt. So i do agree that people are ignoring some of Geoff's issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aku chi Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I think people are drastically overstating Kieran's speed issues. He's got the same base and growth as Haar. They literally have identical speed. Now Haar has a lot of other advantages over Kieran, but saying Kieran has bad base speed and growth means you think Haar has a bad speed base and growth, and I didn't see anyone complaining all that much in his topic. Haar has a mediocre Spd base and poor Spd growth, just like Kieran. Both Haar and Kieran can consume resources to get them doubling through Part 3. But because Haar is better than Kieran in almost every other capacity (availability, flight, Str, Def, Spd caps), he is a much better candidate for those resources. Haar is also more useful than Kieran when they do not double for all of the aforementioned advantages plus the ability to wield the Brave Lance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) Haar has a mediocre Spd base and poor Spd growth, just like Kieran. Both Haar and Kieran can consume resources to get them doubling through Part 3. But because Haar is better than Kieran in almost every other capacity (availability, flight, Str, Def, Spd caps), he is a much better candidate for those resources. Haar is also more useful than Kieran when they do not double for all of the aforementioned advantages plus the ability to wield the Brave Lance. It's ridiculous to say Kieran is anywhere near as good as Haar, but people are holding Kieran's speed against him while they had absolutely no problem with Haar's for the most part. These are all the votes that hold his speed against him significantly, there are others, but they just say his speed isn't great, not that it's terrible or anything worse than mediocre, which it is and he doesn't have anything like flight, obscene strength/def, availability to make up for it like Haar. I think the thing that just kills me is that in many of these ratings people had no problems with Geof's speed when he has the exact same base and all of 5% more growth, in addition to starting 4 levels higher. Hell, I don't disagree with the general scores; I just feel like people are significantly overstating one of Kieran's flaws, and not even his biggest one. I'm aware of why Haar is better than Kieran, granted I could have phrased my complaint a little more clearly in my OP. But to say Kieran's "slow as molasses" or has "craptacular speed" and not hold Haar's (or in this topic, Geof's) speed against him at all is hypocritical to at least some extent. Would you disagree? Edited June 4, 2012 by bottlegnomes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I'm aware of why Haar is better than Kieran, granted I could have phrased my complaint a little more clearly in my OP. But to say Kieran's "slow as molasses" or has "craptacular speed" and not hold Haar's (or in this topic, Geof's) speed against him at all is hypocritical to at least some extent. Would you disagree? The main difference that people are highlighting is that Haar's strengths greatly outweigh his weaknesses to the point where they barely matter (you don't see anyone complaining about his 30% HP growth, for example) whereas Kieran does not have nearly as many strengths to outweigh that same weakness. You can't view stats independent of other stats; they have to be viewed in relation to everything else. So no, I wouldn't think that it's hypocritical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starwave Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) Does it even matter? Haar is slow, yes but he gets away with because he's damn good. I didn't think I needed to say "Haar's only weakness is his speed" in the Haar thread because it was common knowledge, and most of the posters in the Haar thread were trying to have fun. As for Geof... last I checked he was usable in 3 chapters, and his speed is pretty decent in said chapters. Kieran just doesn't hold up post part II. >:? Edited June 5, 2012 by Starwave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) How the fuck did this turn into a Kieran vs Haar debate? Point is, Kieran's speed really isn't that bad. His problem is that he doesn't have time to level or have ridiculous other stats to make up for having mediocre speed, unlike Haar. Saying he has "craptactular speed" or is "slow as molasses" is just false. If Kieran joined the GMs the same time as Haar, would people be complaining about his speed any more than saying he's a bit slow, like they do for Haar? The main difference that people are highlighting is that Haar's strengths greatly outweigh his weaknesses to the point where they barely matter (you don't see anyone complaining about his 30% HP growth, for example) whereas Kieran does not have nearly as many strengths to outweigh that same weakness. You can't view stats independent of other stats; they have to be viewed in relation to everything else. So no, I wouldn't think that it's hypocritical. Haar's also guaranteed 50 HP from just base and promotion. So his base in the same stat makes up for his low growth, not his other strengths. Yeah, it is hypocritical. Haar may have stuff to make up for his mediocre speed, but he's still got mediocre speed. Geoff does, too. If you're going to damn Kieran just for his speed, you'd better at least take it into account for characters who have similar speed, even if they have things to make up for it. Otherwise, you're holding Kieran to a different standard than other units. Does it even matter? Haar is slow, yes but he gets away with because he's damn good. I didn't think I needed to say "Haar's only weakness is his speed" in the Haar thread because it was common knowledge, and most of the posters in the Haar thread were trying to have fun. As for Geof... last I checked he was usable in 3 chapters, and his speed is pretty decent in said chapters. Kieran just doesn't hold up post part II. >:? So you're saying Kieran would be better if he weren't around, like Geoffrey? His speed is "pretty decent" in the exact same chapters. Edited June 5, 2012 by bottlegnomes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solcalibre Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I was going to vote but the characters weren't really...great. The lack of motivation to vote is imminent. Highest I would have given Geoffrey was a 6 if I was pushing it People give Haar the speedwings because he's around for longer, he flies and he beats Kieran in STR/SKL/DEF (higher bases, growths and caps (he also eventually surpasses Kieran in luck, but it's by one point)). His only real losses to Kieran are HP (Haar's not exactly struggling here) and RES, which is arguably his only weakness (Nullify helps him not get hammered by thunder sages, which as people have said before he can avoid). I gave all my speedwings to Haar. He may not be as fast as jill but he needs the speed anyway since he's a beast unit and he will need all the speed he can get. Nullify...I never really though about that first time around. He was just tanky enough to take hits and even then avoid some. As for Keiran...he's a meh. Never really favoured him in both characters and personality. he's the least liked in the Paladin trio archtype with Oscar being my most favoured. At least Geoffrey had a Brave lance for him to keep hitting foes down until he was able to do double (quad). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titamon Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I hold Kieran's speed against him because he has very few chapters of playtime and can't get his speed up fast enough to compensate. Comparing Haar and Kieran's speed would make sense if they joined at a the same time... but this not the case. Now it is true that Haar and Kieran have similar speed at similar levels, but the reality is Haar will always have a level lead (and possibly a speedwing), meaning more speed. It's not a conspiracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starwave Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) So you're saying Kieran would be better if he weren't around, like Geoffrey? His speed is "pretty decent" in the exact same chapters. Would saying "Kieran's speed in part II is acceptable" make you feel better? He's slow as dirt passed that point. Geoffrey isn't really comparable since he's gone for 90% of the game (and he's acceptable in the chapters he's relevant in). The thing is, Haar is pretty slow too but unlike Kieran he's got a ridiculous amount of time to raise his speed, versus Kieran's who's time is rather limited. They have different join times, different utility, different growths(Haar is capping his stats faster than Kieran's, which means he's quicker to BEXP abuse for those speed ups)... they're hardly comparable. Why are you getting bent all out of shape anyway? This discussion is extraneous anyway... ok you might be right... want a cookie? Edited June 6, 2012 by Starwave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotguner159 Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Would saying "Kieran's speed in part II is acceptable" make you feel better? He's slow as dirt passed that point. Geoffrey isn't really comparable since he's gone for 90% of the game (and he's acceptable in the chapters he's relevant in). Geoffrey is in 4-5. Is his speed good then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) I hold Kieran's speed against him because he has very few chapters of playtime and can't get his speed up fast enough to compensate. Comparing Haar and Kieran's speed would make sense if they joined at a the same time... but this not the case. Now it is true that Haar and Kieran have similar speed at similar levels, but the reality is Haar will always have a level lead (and possibly a speedwing), meaning more speed. It's not a conspiracy So you're saying Kieran has problems because of his availability, not his stats themselves? Would saying "Kieran's speed in part II is acceptable" make you feel better? He's slow as dirt passed that point. Geoffrey isn't really comparable since he's gone for 90% of the game (and he's acceptable in the chapters he's relevant in). The thing is, Haar is pretty slow too but unlike Kieran he's got a ridiculous amount of time to raise his speed, versus Kieran's who's time is rather limited. They have different join times, different utility, different growths(Haar is capping his stats faster than Kieran's, which means he's quicker to BEXP abuse for those speed ups)... they're hardly comparable. Why are you getting bent all out of shape anyway? This discussion is extraneous anyway... ok you might be right... want a cookie? I just think people should actually put some thought into their ratings and penalize characters for things that they actually do poorly in, like Kieran and his availability, not his speed stat itself. And last I checked, bexp abuse wasn't exactly considered. I wouldn't say I'm "bent out of shape," but I am a little annoyed. People completely missing the point of my statement doesn't warrant a little annoyance? The only reason this is "extraneous" is because people didn't actually pay attention to the point I was making in the first place and turned it into a Kieran vs Haar debate. So is this done now? And yes, I would like a cookie. Geoffrey is in 4-5. Is his speed good then? If you bexp him to capping, promote him, and give him all the exp in 3-9 it can be Edited June 6, 2012 by bottlegnomes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titamon Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 So you're saying Kieran has problems because of his availability, not his stats themselves? Well his speed would still be bad, but he would have more playtime to patch it up. I think he would be better than Oscar if he joined the Greil Mercenaries at the start of part 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Well his speed would still be bad, but he would have more playtime to patch it up. I think he would be better than Oscar if he joined the Greil Mercenaries at the start of part 3. So it's not "craptacular," just not good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titamon Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 So it's not "craptacular," just not good? Yeah, I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.