Why is Final Fantasy 7 the biggest hate'love game there is?

[Esau of Isaac]

1: Him dieing actually has a point, furthering the stories succession themes and stopping the party from being killed

2: He's a better character when alive

3: They actually try resurrection items on him and answer that plothole

4: He's from a better game

1.) And? Why does Aeris' death have to be heroic and helping some cause to be memorable and worthy of recognition?

2.) That's fairly debatable, but Aeris as a character was more valuable because of the connection she formed with Cloud, not simply because of her straight characteristics.

3.) This has nothing to do with the situation and it's not a plothole in the first place, as Phoenix Downs revive an ally from a KO status and obviously not from death. If they did then they would be a common item in every militaristic situation and it would be a plot point, would it not?

4.) lol

Not as an intentional, direct result of the death.

So what? What does that have to do with it?

[Esaka]

His death was more dramatic and Manly Final stands >>> Dramatic Lover's Death.

Gwauf's death fit the tone and story more (passing on), and it was more groundbreaking for the series.

[1st Mate Bob]

His death was more dramatic and Manly Final stands >>> Dramatic Lover's Death.

Debatable. I prefer the latter over the former most of the time. In the case of FFVII, though, I have to agree (because I don't like Aerith).

[Esau of Isaac]

His death was more dramatic and Manly Final stands >>> Dramatic Lover's Death.

More dramatic? Seriously? Aeris' death was and still is regarded as one of the most impacting, emotional moments in videogame history by a huge number of people. It was the videogame story moment that set everyone ablaze.

Gwauf's death fit the tone and story more (passing on), and it was more groundbreaking for the series.

Aeris' death fit the tone of the story just as much as Galuf's, and was certainly more groundbreaking, both for the series and storytelling in videogames as a whole. The only game I could recall which viciously murdered the protagonist's love interest prior to FFVII was Phantasy Star II, although Rolf was more or less a silent protagonist and Nei didn't have a huge amount of dialogue comparatively speaking.

I don't know, there might have been mutliple games before both of them but they were all definitely minor next to FFVII. Most people don't even know who Galuf is, but Aeris' death is a joke for internet culture much similar to, "Snape kills Dumbledore," and "Rosebud was his sled."

[grandjackal]

1.) And? Why does Aeris' death have to be heroic and helping some cause to be memorable and worthy of recognition?

Otherwise, it's a wasted character, which Aeris totally is.

2.) That's fairly debatable, but Aeris as a character was more valuable because of the connection she formed with Cloud, not simply because of her straight characteristics.

What connection? She's literally a hobo he met that got attached to him for no reason.

Also, 5 is totally a better game in any possible way I can imagine it.

More dramatic? Seriously? Aeris' death was and still is regarded as one of the most impacting, emotional moments in videogame history by a huge number of people. It was the videogame story moment that set everyone ablaze.

Most people didn't even know 5 existed because it was never released outside of Japan until after 7, and even when it was it was released as an under the counter port. That's not "7 was groundbreaking" and more "No one would know anyways".

Aeris' death fit the tone of the story just as much as Galuf's, and was certainly more groundbreaking, both for the series and storytelling in videogames as a whole.

Ahhh I see now, that explains it. You're delusional and have difficulty reading, ok. I get it now.

The only game I could recall which viciously murdered the protagonist's love interest prior to FFVII was Phantasy Star II, although Rolf was more or less a silent protagonist and Nei didn't have a huge amount of dialogue comparatively speaking.

Well it's not exactly a far comparison, though even more was that Aeris was almost never important. Here is her character.

"The planet talks to me"

"I never have anything important to say"

"I like you Cloud, oops, I'm dead".

Truly a masterpiece.

I don't know, there might have been mutliple games before both of them but they were all definitely minor next to FFVII. Most people don't even know who Galuf is, but Aeris' death is a joke for internet culture much similar to, "Snape kills Dumbledore," and "Rosebud was his sled."

Joseph Dies Immediately should be a new one.

I think I can sum up why Galuf is a better character and thus why his death hits home better in a more clear sense.

1. You actually get to know him, and it turns out he's had an awesome life. Aeris was harassed by secret police, but so has like half of Midgar. Galuf already saved the universe once. Aeris was just a hobo with voices in her head.

2. His death was a sacrifice because otherwise you would be burnt toast. Aeris just kinda sat there, her death being completely coincidental.

3. Galuf was an actual main character developed as such for a majority of the game having fallen just short of his mission so that his comrades could finish it in his stead. Aeris exists for 1/5 of the game, which is close to Joseph status.

4. Galuf is an actually likeable character with this thing called a personality, and was interesting and fun. Him dying felt like the world lost something great. Aeris was...Uhh..a flower girl who just happened to have the save the world device and was never even aware of it. In fact, since Sephiroth is what is stopping Holy from happening anyways, she didn't even need to die. Not even the writers liked her.

[Esau of Isaac]

Otherwise, it's a wasted character, which Aeris totally is.

How the hell is a character not dying heroically a wasted death? Were the deaths of Romeo and Juliet not meaningful because nothing heroic in the plot happened?

What connection? She's literally a hobo he met that got attached to him for no reason.

Well, no, she became attached to and fell in love with him because he had mannerisms much the same as Zack, of course explained because of Cloud's haze after experimentation.

Also, 5 is totally a better game in any possible way I can imagine it.

"It's better because I say it's better Goddammit."

Most people didn't even know 5 existed because it was never released outside of Japan until after 7, and even when it was it was released as an under the counter port. That's not "7 was groundbreaking" and more "No one would know anyways".

So you are saying if V was released in North America simultaneously with Japan the internet sensation regarding Aeris would instead be replaced with Galuf's heroic sacrifice?

I want you to try and be serious when you answer this. Think about the circumstances of Galuf's death comparatively and be honest when you answer.

Ahhh I see now, that explains it. You're delusional and have difficulty reading, ok. I get it now.

Well it's not exactly a far comparison, though even more was that Aeris was almost never important. Here is her character.

"The planet talks to me"

"I never have anything important to say"

"I like you Cloud, oops, I'm dead".

Truly a masterpiece.

In the same vein, here's Galuf:

"I can't remember who I am!"

"That is a truly original character archetype."

"How crazy would it be if it turned out I were royalty or something?"

"That would be as cliche as dying and then giving me encouragement from the afterlife."

What groundbreaking material here. No one has ever died saving the party, especially not in any preceding titles in the series.

Joseph Dies Immediately should be a new one.

I think I can sum up why Galuf is a better character and thus why his death hits home better in a more clear sense.

1. You actually get to know him, and it turns out he's had an awesome life. Aeris was harassed by secret police, but so has like half of Midgar. Galuf already saved the universe once. Aeris was just a hobo with voices in her head.

2. His death was a sacrifice because otherwise you would be burnt toast. Aeris just kinda sat there, her death being completely coincidental.

3. Galuf was an actual main character developed as such for a majority of the game having fallen just short of his mission so that his comrades could finish it in his stead. Aeris exists for 1/5 of the game, which is close to Joseph status.

4. Galuf is an actually likeable character with this thing called a personality, and was interesting and fun. Him dying felt like the world lost something great. Aeris was...Uhh..a flower girl who just happened to have the save the world device and was never even aware of it. In fact, since Sephiroth is what is stopping Holy from happening anyways, she didn't even need to die. Not even the writers liked her.

1. So? Her situation was suggested to be that of the last of her people. She was hounded by Shinra when all she wanted was a peaceful life in her church. So what if she wasn't valiant as fuck, that doesn't make her somehow diminished.

2. Aeris' death was huge precisely because it was impossible to see coming. Even in the Final Fantasy series a guy giving up his life to save the party wasn't unknown. It was somewhat of a commonality, in fact. Characters' romantic partners were and still are to a degree fairly safe from any harm plot-wise. It was crazy to see Sephiroth bust out from above and take out Aeris, who was a straight innocent person uninvolved in battle at the time.

3. Aeris exists for small portions of the game because there are nine characters, seven of which receive very clear storyline talking points. She had several clear areas of dialogue and development, but obviously she didn't get a huge amount since she died a third of the way through the game rather than near the end. Still, I'd be willing to bet that line for line she comes pretty close to Galuf's commentary through all appearances, if not more.

4. How doesn't Aeris have a personality? Because she's not off the fucking wall crazy spouting jokes and guffawing about everything? And what are you talking about? Sephiroth stopped Holy, but the final battle wrenched that from him. If she hadn't have died then everything would have been for nothing since Holy arrived too late and shit was getting wrecked. It was Aeris, from within the Lifestream, that was able to direct it outwards and save the planet.

As for whether she was well liked by the writers or not, that's not entirely relevant. What they were going for was pretty clear:

"In the real world things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling but great emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think, 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood."

And it set everyone off. One of the biggest rumors in gaming around that time and even now regards being able to revive her from the dead. She was well-liked as a character by many. I'm not saying your opinion doesn't matter, or something, but I'm certainly not some dog slavering at the mouth for appreciating the tragedy of her death far more than Galuf, and I don't think all those others are either.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Esau of Isaac

[grandjackal]

How the hell is a character not dying heroically a wasted death? Were the deaths of Romeo and Juliet not meaningful because nothing heroic in the plot happened?

That's a pretty bad comparison, unless you're saying FF7 s a romance and not a, ya know, an RPG where your goal is to basically save the world from a madman. Romeo and Juliet's death were meaningful because they mostly the focus of the entire plot. How is that a valid comparison?

Well, no, she became attached to and fell in love with him because he had mannerisms much the same as Zack, of course explained because of Cloud's haze after experimentation

Thus why I didn't care. Cloud had no real connection with her, just his mannerisms were catnip. I'm not compelled.

"It's better because I say it's better Goddammit."

Granted it's opinion in playstyle. If I were to give props to FF7 on something, it's presentation. Love the atmosphere to it.

So you are saying if V was released in North America simultaneously with Japan the internet sensation regarding Aeris would instead be replaced with Galuf's heroic sacrifice?

Yes.

I want you to try and be serious when you answer this. Think about the circumstances of Galuf's death comparatively and be honest when you answer.

*Thinks about it*

Still yes.

I'm saving that image.

What groundbreaking material here. No one has ever died saving the party, especially not in any preceding titles in the series.

Beats the homeless girl dying because "People die all the time".

1. So? Her situation was suggested to be that of the last of her people. She was hounded by Shinra when all she wanted was a peaceful life in her church. So what if she wasn't valiant as fuck, that doesn't make her somehow diminished.

The thing is, even though Galuf's extraordinary story of being a space king who came to save the universe in a meteor but fucked up his plan by conking his head hard enough to make him have memory loss, I find his story more believable than Aeris because Aeris ges over this garbage immediately once you leave Midgar like it never happened, which goes with everyone else's story once it becomes "We must kill Sephiroth". Galuf at least knows to stick to character.

2. Aeris' death was huge precisely because it was impossible to see coming. Even in the Final Fantasy series a guy giving up his life to save the party wasn't unknown. It was somewhat of a commonality, in fact. Characters' romantic partners were and still are to a degree fairly safe from any harm plot-wise. It was crazy to see Sephiroth bust out from above and take out Aeris, who was a straight innocent person uninvolved in battle at the time.

Which is exactly why I don't care. Aeris gives me nothing to become emotionally involved with. When she dies, it's a shock death, a death you get over immediately, especially if the person was basically a stranger to you. A shock death is a terrible plot device because it makes characters seem expendable so you don't have to put effort into them. It's not like Seph killed a long time friend (Tifa) or anything, it was just some girl. It could have been Hediggar and it would have meant just as much to e. Perhaps moreso, because at least Hediggar is funny in a very minor way.

3. Aeris exists for small portions of the game because there are nine characters, seven of which receive very clear storyline talking points. She had several clear areas of dialogue and development, but obviously she didn't get a huge amount since she died a third of the way through the game rather than near the end. Still, I'd be willing to bet that line for line she comes pretty close to Galuf's commentary through all appearances, if not more.

You've never played 5, have you? Galuf is probably the most important character in the story.

4. How doesn't Aeris have a personality? Because she's not off the fucking wall crazy spouting jokes and guffawing about everything? And what are you talking about? Sephiroth stopped Holy, but the final battle wrenched that from him. If she hadn't have died then everything would have been for nothing since Holy arrived too late and shit was getting wrecked. It was Aeris, from within the Lifestream, that was able to direct it outwards and save the planet.

Despite Aeris being dead, Holy was still active as it was Seph alone that was just able to stop it because..I dunno, Seph is a demigod. He didn't need to kill her to keep Holy from happening. If even she was dead Holy still happened after he died anyways, then her death was entirely pointless outside of shock value. That is terrible writing.

But hey, this point you made was about her personality. While I'll just point out that there is no just 1 personality that is likeable, I would like for you to describe her personality. Enlighten me. What is her personality like? While answering, try not to sound like the loneliest person in the universe. Go on, I'm listening.

"In the real world things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling but great emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think, 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood."

Loved very much? Maybe if it were Tifa, of whom he actually DID have a connection with then yeah, I would probably not be typing right now. But it was Aeris. A person he barely knew, and didn't get much time to know better. Yeah yeah "Cut before her prime", but a compelling narration it does not make. The fact that Cloud bawled over her like it was his mother was something that just wasn't believable. At best, it was an oh shit moment.

And it set everyone off. One of the biggest rumors in gaming around that time and even now regards being able to revive her from the dead. She was well-liked as a character by many. I'm not saying your opinion doesn't matter, or something, but I'm certainly not some dog slavering at the mouth for appreciating the tragedy of her death far more than Galuf, and I don't think all those others are either.

No offense, but you sound like it. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I just have a hard time believing you would mourn like a widow over the death of an aquaintance. I could see how you'd be scarred if you saw someone get butchered before your eyes, but I just can't see the emotional involvement of this character. She seems more just a throwaway for a shock death. What is so compelling about this hobo other than she has the shittiest luck in the universe?

[eclipse]

VII had its moments, but the main characters didn't quite do it for me. My favorite character is Red XIII, followed distantly by Barret. I preferred VI's esper system over the materia one. . .except for the monster materia; that one was awesome.

[Esau of Isaac]

That's a pretty bad comparison, unless you're saying FF7 s a romance and not a, ya know, an RPG where your goal is to basically save the world from a madman. Romeo and Juliet's death were meaningful because they mostly the focus of the entire plot. How is that a valid comparison?

Why does the distinction matter at all? You implied that a death has to be from a heroic source to be meaningful. I was asking whether you genuinely believed that and used a comparative source to show why that is silly.

Why do you keep adding in qualifying factors after the fact?

Thus why I didn't care. Cloud had no real connection with her, just his mannerisms were catnip. I'm not compelled.

For what it's worth this is supposed to have been what caused her to become interested in him, but she genuinely liked Cloud. I believe it said something along those lines in the novella, at least.

*Thinks about it*

Still yes.

Okay. But how? The series already has its very fair share of valiant deaths, and gaming is rife with them. It's a commonality for your characters to be saved by a macho display of manliness in media, even in Final Fantasy. Even in Japan it's not a huge thing that Galuf died saving Bartz and everyone else. So where's the precedent it sets?

Beats the homeless girl dying because "People die all the time".

How? The former is featured everywhere, the latter never. Aeris' death was more impacting precisely because of that.

The thing is, even though Galuf's extraordinary story of being a space king who came to save the universe in a meteor but fucked up his plan by conking his head hard enough to make him have memory loss, I find his story more believable than Aeris because Aeris ges over this garbage immediately once you leave Midgar like it never happened, which goes with everyone else's story once it becomes "We must kill Sephiroth". Galuf at least knows to stick to character.

It's sidelined because there's a murderous Superman running amok. There's nothing that says Aeris simply forgets about her origins, as they are addressed as time goes on.

Which is exactly why I don't care. Aeris gives me nothing to become emotionally involved with. When she dies, it's a shock death, a death you get over immediately, especially if the person was basically a stranger to you. A shock death is a terrible plot device because it makes characters seem expendable so you don't have to put effort into them. It's not like Seph killed a long time friend (Tifa) or anything, it was just some girl. It could have been Hediggar and it would have meant just as much to e. Perhaps moreso, because at least Hediggar is funny in a very minor way.

But it wasn't just some girl. The dialogue built her up to be a romantic interest for Cloud. I mean, if you didn't become attached to the character, that's your thing, but the lines were there and hundreds of thousands found them interesting enough to be pulled in.

You've never played 5, have you? Galuf is probably the most important character in the story.

I have played and beaten every single game with the Final Fantasy nametag on it. I was talking about pure amount of presence in the storyline and not importance to the plotline, as being a main character doesn't mean everything happening in the entire universe has to revolve around everything you've ever done.

Despite Aeris being dead, Holy was still active as it was Seph alone that was just able to stop it because..I dunno, Seph is a demigod. He didn't need to kill her to keep Holy from happening. If even she was dead Holy still happened after he died anyways, then her death was entirely pointless outside of shock value. That is terrible writing.

Aeris was praying for Holy to happen. Sephiroth was attempting to stop this, as Holy was something that would ruin his day. It turns out she managed to get it to work, so he held it back. At the very least it was a loose end, a person that could possibly oppose him. There is also the fact that Sephiroth is clearly insane and regards Cloud with utmost hate and resentment, and thus would seek to make him miserable however he could.

But hey, this point you made was about her personality. While I'll just point out that there is no just 1 personality that is likeable, I would like for you to describe her personality. Enlighten me. What is her personality like? While answering, try not to sound like the loneliest person in the universe. Go on, I'm listening.

Okay, I guess. Aeris is a lively slum-girl, having grown up with her "mother" Elmyra. Optimistic to a fault, Aeris' cheery disposition runs a stark contrast to the rundown Sector Seven slums of Midgar. She can be seen selling flowers she has managed to cultivate within the Sector 5 Church, giving a small sense of hope in a city otherwise glum. Though she is honest and forthcoming, Aeris tends to hide behind her positive exterior, as she secretly knows of her Cetra heritage and oftentimes hears the planet communicate with her. She is a lonely being despite her appearances, the last of her kind, leaving her an at times tragic character. Despite this, she maintains a forward momentum, oftentimes a rallying source of motivation for the party when moving from one destination to the next.

Loved very much? Maybe if it were Tifa, of whom he actually DID have a connection with then yeah, I would probably not be typing right now. But it was Aeris. A person he barely knew, and didn't get much time to know better. Yeah yeah "Cut before her prime", but a compelling narration it does not make. The fact that Cloud bawled over her like it was his mother was something that just wasn't believable. At best, it was an oh shit moment.

You don't have to know someone for a lifetime, or even a long time, to fall in love with them. It's a powerful emotion that can manifest very quickly. We don't know precisely how long Cloud traveled with Aeris, and there is likely supposed to be a greater sense of passage of time on account of the time it takes a player to actually move through the story, but I find it very believable for him to have fallen for her, if he did. That said, the reaction he had was wholly understandable, as she was an uplifting and joyful personality in a dreary, dying world. Can you say you would not break down at a traveling companion dying right before you, especially one that had maintained a healthy optimism in spite of all the shitty things happening around you, let alone a pretty girl you love?

He would likely have reacted the same way for Tifa, probably even moreso. It's stated very clearly that he and her have feelings, but they weren't expressed throughout most of the game --and indeed Cloud's life-- because of his low sense of self worth, and likely because of remnants of the shame that he felt even through the schism that was his personality.

No offense, but you sound like it. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I just have a hard time believing you would mourn like a widow over the death of an aquaintance. I could see how you'd be scarred if you saw someone get butchered before your eyes, but I just can't see the emotional involvement of this character. She seems more just a throwaway for a shock death. What is so compelling about this hobo other than she has the shittiest luck in the universe?

This is rather like asking what is so compelling about Galuf other than that he's just some old guy. He's a character that was developed over the course of a story, one which the player was to be attached to through plotline and character interaction. Events can't be treated in a vacuum, you have to analyze them with respect to the rest of the story and the characters within them. Whatever relationship Cloud and Aeris showed, she was very clearly a loved member of their party, who shared in their journey. She was a dying breed in more ways than one, and it was all of those culminating characteristics of her personality that led to such a reaction.

[grandjackal]

Why does the distinction matter at all? You implied that a death has to be from a heroic source to be meaningful. I was asking whether you genuinely believed that and used a comparative source to show why that is silly.

A heroic death is as meaningful as one bound by love or whatever. The issue is Aeris is none of those things because she is a shock death. A throwaway because the writers threw up their hands, said "fuck it", and ended her with the legendary people eraser known as Masamune.

Why do you keep adding in qualifying factors after the fact?

Cause there are many ways of which Aeris's death is meaningless.

For what it's worth this is supposed to have been what caused her to become interested in him, but she genuinely liked Cloud. I believe it said something along those lines in the novella, at least.

Sucks to be her then. Yet another scenario of her awful luck, which happens, and in no way compels me at all.

Okay. But how? The series already has its very fair share of valiant deaths, and gaming is rife with them. It's a commonality for your characters to be saved by a macho display of manliness in media, even in Final Fantasy. Even in Japan it's not a huge thing that Galuf died saving Bartz and everyone else. So where's the precedent it sets?

Let me give you a view from my point here. My thought process is that if everyone freaked out over Aeris, then it is my belief that somewhere if 5 came out to the states there would be a day the fans made to mourn him, because people thinking Aeris's death was impactful has set my bar so low that you could kick it down the sidewalk. Bare basics, Galuf's death had actual meaning. Aeris's was a shock death, and you have yet to make me think otherwise. If anything, the quote you threw out straight proved it.

How? The former is featured everywhere, the latter never. Aeris' death was more impacting precisely because of that.

Tell me, do you weep tears of blood knowing that sheep are being slaughtered every day? No? Then why you cry for Aeris? The former is everywhere because it's tried and true (aside from "Whoops, didn't need to do that" moments) or at least is appropriate given the situation in the storyline (as in, if it didn't happen, then the story basically ends), and the latter is never because people tend to not find those narratives interesting. Might be because the latter is mostly of expendable characters that never have any actual impact on anything in the story.

It's sidelined because there's a murderous Superman running amok. There's nothing that says Aeris simply forgets about her origins, as they are addressed as time goes on.

There was a murderous Superman on the loose in 5 too, that didn't stop characters from keeping in character. In fact, that was pretty much the death scene at it's basis. It's just Sephiroth again. We get it, he's scary. Wasn't necessary.

But it wasn't just some girl. The dialogue built her up to be a romantic interest for Cloud. I mean, if you didn't become attached to the character, that's your thing, but the lines were there and hundreds of thousands found them interesting enough to be pulled in.

Where are these magic lines of which you speak? Because I am clear of mind and can read too. Nowhere was I ever under the impression of something between them. It was basically just her at best. At worst, it was like she was being a pest.

I have played and beaten every single game with the Final Fantasy nametag on it. I was talking about pure amount of presence in the storyline and not importance to the plotline, as being a main character doesn't mean everything happening in the entire universe has to revolve around everything you've ever done.

...But everything HAS revolved around almost everything he's ever done. That's why I said he was the most important character in the game. By definition. Like, it's hard to be any more clear.

Aeris was praying for Holy to happen. Sephiroth was attempting to stop this, as Holy was something that would ruin his day. It turns out she managed to get it to work, so he held it back. At the very least it was a loose end, a person that could possibly oppose him. There is also the fact that Sephiroth is clearly insane and regards Cloud with utmost hate and resentment, and thus would seek to make him miserable however he could.

So what, Seph just wanted to cock-block Cloud? Please. Give me a good reason, because the moment Cloud set out and said "Seph has to die", he was doomed. Holy stopping Meteor, or even Meteor not existing, Seph was going to die. Holy was essentially a really terrible plot device.

Okay, I guess. Aeris is a lively slum-girl, having grown up with her "mother" Elmyra. Optimistic to a fault, Aeris' cheery disposition runs a stark contrast to the rundown Sector Seven slums of Midgar. She can be seen selling flowers she has managed to cultivate within the Sector 5 Church, giving a small sense of hope in a city otherwise glum. Though she is honest and forthcoming, Aeris tends to hide behind her positive exterior, as she secretly knows of her Cetra heritage and oftentimes hears the planet communicate with her. She is a lonely being despite her appearances, the last of her kind, leaving her an at times tragic character. Despite this, she maintains a forward momentum, oftentimes a rallying source of motivation for the party when moving from one destination to the next.

Notice that after Midgar, everything you just described stops. If it's not that important for her, it's not that important for me.

You don't have to know someone for a lifetime, or even a long time, to fall in love with them.

It sure as hell has a stronger and more meaningful bond, be it love, colleagues, friendship, teacher/student, what have you. In fact, the game cuts an entire portion of itself to show how strong that bond is between Cloud and Tifa when Cloud literally enters Cloud's mind. You expect me to believe a girl he finds cute would be more meaningful than Tifa literally saving his life, being at his side when he was paralyzed and generally being there for hm all the time? Get that shit out of here.

Besides, if Aeris is cute, then what is Tifa? Like if we're going in the shallow end of the pool here, Tifa's fucking hot and isn't afraid to show it either. Fuck Aeris and her sunday dress and weird homeless girl hair.

It's a powerful emotion that can manifest very quickly.

Thus why it's meaning in reality is not that strong, because it can just as quickly fizzle. Or, it can be completely one sided, like it was with Aeris.

That said, the reaction he had was wholly understandable, as she was an uplifting and joyful personality in a dreary, dying world. Can you say you would not break down at a traveling companion dying right before you, especially one that had maintained a healthy optimism in spite of all the shitty things happening around you, let alone a pretty girl you love?

If I barely knew her, then yes, I could easily say I wouldn't break down. I can't love and barely know someone at the same time. That's high school BS, to which Cloud seemed to be above.

I also am of the belief that there is a difference between being optimistic and being someone I want to shut the hell up. Aeris is not the former. It's not like the team would have fallen apart without her.

He would likely have reacted the same way for Tifa, probably even moreso.

Probably? As if there was a chance?

It's stated very clearly that he and her have feelings, but they weren't expressed throughout most of the game --and indeed Cloud's life-- because of his low sense of self worth, and likely because of remnants of the shame that he felt even through the schism that was his personality.

And that is why Tifa is awesome, because she basically saved his life, both physically and psychologically/emotionally/whatever the accurate thing would be. Who the fuck needs optimism when you have someone actually willing to work you through your BS and the both of you coming out clean?

This is rather like asking what is so compelling about Galuf other than that he's just some old guy. He's a character that was developed over the course of a story, one which the player was to be attached to through plotline and character interaction. Events can't be treated in a vacuum, you have to analyze them with respect to the rest of the story and the characters within them. Whatever relationship Cloud and Aeris showed, she was very clearly a loved member of their party, who shared in their journey. She was a dying breed in more ways than one, and it was all of those culminating characteristics of her personality that led to such a reaction.

The thing is, I don't see how you even get any of this through this so called analysis of yours. Yes she was a dying breed, but she stopped caring eventually. I had no sense that she was a loved member of the party other than Cloud's super over reaction that makes him look borderline like Squall (to which Barret even expresses he was totally willing to shoot Cloud in the face because of it). I'm surprised you find meaning in this stuff, much less actually find it belieavable.

[Hawk King]

I dont know how anyone can think Galuf's death was better than Aeris'.

Aeris' death scene is one of the most iconic moments in the history of video games. People who have never played a FF or any RPG know about Aeris' death scene.

Galuf's is just another cliché "spur of the moment, sacrifice death". Galuf sacrificed himself for the rest of your party. Aeris' did it for the entire planet.

When Galuf died I was like "Oh that kinda sucks... Hey I bet Krille joins my party now, YES!"

When Aeris died I was actually sad. And the most recent time i played after growing up and maturing I legitimately cried.

I suppose kids just dont get it or understand the gravity of the situation...

[eclipse]

I dont know how anyone can think Galuf's death was better than Aeris'.

Aeris' death scene is one of the most iconic moments in the history of video games. People who have never played a FF or any RPG know about Aeris' death scene.

Galuf's is just another cliché "spur of the moment, sacrifice death". Galuf sacrificed himself for the rest of your party. Aeris' did it for the entire planet.

When Galuf died I was like "Oh that kinda sucks... Hey I bet Krille joins my party now, YES!"

When Aeris died I was actually sad. And the most recent time i played after growing up and maturing I legitimately cried.

I suppose kids just dont get it or understand the gravity of the situation...

Hey, just 'cause I didn't feel that much during Aeris' death doesn't make me a kid. I felt more during the ending of XIII-2.

[Esau of Isaac]

A heroic death is as meaningful as one bound by love or whatever. The issue is Aeris is none of those things because she is a shock death. A throwaway because the writers threw up their hands, said "fuck it", and ended her with the legendary people eraser known as Masamune.

Yeah, a heroic death can be just as meaningful as one of shock. I never said otherwise, you did.

Cause there are many ways of which Aeris's death is meaningless.

Close, but the winning answer was, "Because I am desperate in looking for objective reasons to justify my personal opinion." Just be honest about it. I don't care if you didn't think the death was all that, but don't deny that it has its place in the videogame community and was a valid event just because you didn't like it. I wasn't all big on Galuf's death other than that I thought that it was cool that it happened during battle, but I'm not going to sit here and try and objectively deny its merit through gradually specific qualifying factors.

Let me give you a view from my point here. My thought process is that if everyone freaked out over Aeris, then it is my belief that somewhere if 5 came out to the states there would be a day the fans made to mourn him, because people thinking Aeris's death was impactful has set my bar so low that you could kick it down the sidewalk. Bare basics, Galuf's death had actual meaning. Aeris's was a shock death, and you have yet to make me think otherwise. If anything, the quote you threw out straight proved it.

But I already explained to you why Aeris' death was so much more impacting than Galuf's. She was a love interest, and an innocent and kind at heart personality, not to mention a female. Her death was huge for the series and videogames as a whole because generally those types of characters are immune to damage. People had no qualms with becoming attached to her because they felt no danger in losing her, which is why it was so surprising for her death to have occurred. Galuf on the other hand is a fighter, a boisterous old man, not to mention a king. Kings die valiantly in battle all the time, not to mention male fighter guys. Like, yeah, I'm not going to say it wasn't somewhat surprising, but it was an expected death the moment Krile appeared simply because of the character archetype.

Aeris' death had meaning, I don't know why you keep saying otherwise. I've explained it to you multiple times, and even given you words through Kitase himself.

Tell me, do you weep tears of blood knowing that sheep are being slaughtered every day? No? Then why you cry for Aeris? The former is everywhere because it's tried and true (aside from "Whoops, didn't need to do that" moments) or at least is appropriate given the situation in the storyline (as in, if it didn't happen, then the story basically ends), and the latter is never because people tend to not find those narratives interesting. Might be because the latter is mostly of expendable characters that never have any actual impact on anything in the story.

What are you talking about? Aeris was a main character, and had an appropriate amount of dialogue to be considered such. She was built up through the plot as a possible romantic interest, and we associated more than a few hours of screentime with her there in some form. I don't see how it's at all comparable to stock characters dying in games that let them do so by the droves, or to games that allow for bad ends which are not legitimate in canon and completely avoidable, thus mitigating the emotional impact.

Seriously, go ahead and list some games prior to FFVII that have the protagonist's budding love interest die permanently, especially one that's developed. The only one I know of is Phantasy Star II, and again, the story and pure number of lines let alone character development are lacking comparatively (though it's truly a great game). However, fittingly there is a cult hit of sorts regarding Nei's death with the few that played it over here.

There was a murderous Superman on the loose in 5 too, that didn't stop characters from keeping in character. In fact, that was pretty much the death scene at it's basis. It's just Sephiroth again. We get it, he's scary. Wasn't necessary.

Exdeath didn't appear as the primary villain until quite farther into V comparatively than VII. While the plight of Aeris was important to the party, it was --again, as I've already stated-- sidelined when Sephiroth's threat was shown. She didn't leave character by deciding to help stop a character that was a threat to everyone and everything. And given that his origins intertwined with her own, even if she were some kind of robot that wished only to find out her past as you believe her to be going after him would dovetail nicely with her journey for answers.

Where are these magic lines of which you speak? Because I am clear of mind and can read too. Nowhere was I ever under the impression of something between them. It was basically just her at best. At worst, it was like she was being a pest.

Where are the magic lines where Cloud states explicitly he loves Tifa? Later on it's a given that they're romantically involved, but it's never made clear, "Tifa, I love you."

Though even if the relationship were one way, it would still be meaningful and impacting for the audience.

...But everything HAS revolved around almost everything he's ever done. That's why I said he was the most important character in the game. By definition. Like, it's hard to be any more clear.

Right, and the reason of my entire response in that area was to say that doesn't matter. A character can be main to the storyline and well liked by people without being involved in everything that happens in the history of their world.

So what, Seph just wanted to cock-block Cloud? Please. Give me a good reason, because the moment Cloud set out and said "Seph has to die", he was doomed. Holy stopping Meteor, or even Meteor not existing, Seph was going to die. Holy was essentially a really terrible plot device.

Sephiroth has shown ridiculous amounts of disdain for Cloud throughout the series, specifically after he loses his mind and is subsequently killed by him in the Nibelheim reactor. That said, he did say that he viewed Cloud as a doll at the time. This could have been mocking, but then it's also just as likely that he was being serious and simply viewed Aeris as a threat that needed to be eliminated.

And what? He was doomed because Cloud said so? How? By pure plot you could have guessed that Sephiroth would lose, but then you can guess that with literally any primary villain in any game ever.

Notice that after Midgar, everything you just described stops. If it's not that important for her, it's not that important for me.

How does all of this stop?

It sure as hell has a stronger and more meaningful bond, be it love, colleagues, friendship, teacher/student, what have you.

In actuality, with respect to love this is not necessarily the case, both in reality and in fiction. The feeling of love is most felt near the beginning of a relationship, when it is very hot. People describe a relationship deepening into a more meaningful sense of love over time, but the feeling of every waking moment being thought about the other is generally a feeling most strongly experienced earlier on. In addition, society tends to favor budding loving relationships in media as more impacting, rather than those that have existed since childhood.

In fact, the game cuts an entire portion of itself to show how strong that bond is between Cloud and Tifa when Cloud literally enters Cloud's mind. You expect me to believe a girl he finds cute would be more meaningful than Tifa literally saving his life, being at his side when he was paralyzed and generally being there for hm all the time? Get that shit out of here.

What you are stating happened after Aeris' death. And I can believe that a man that is shamed of the events regarding his childhood crush towards a woman can possibly fall in love with another woman. I never said he didn't love Tifa, as this is made clear. I simply said that love could have been a strong motivating factor for Aeris.

Besides, if Aeris is cute, then what is Tifa? Like if we're going in the shallow end of the pool here, Tifa's fucking hot and isn't afraid to show it either. Fuck Aeris and her sunday dress and weird homeless girl hair.

Well for one I bet Aeris swallows.

Thus why it's meaning in reality is not that strong, because it can just as quickly fizzle. Or, it can be completely one sided, like it was with Aeris.

This doesn't make her less attached towards the audience, and even as Cloud's traveling companion.

If I barely knew her, then yes, I could easily say I wouldn't break down. I can't love and barely know someone at the same time. That's high school BS, to which Cloud seemed to be above.

I also am of the belief that there is a difference between being optimistic and being someone I want to shut the hell up. Aeris is not the former. It's not like the team would have fallen apart without her.

How is it high school BS to care for someone you have met a short time ago? I have friends I would cry over having killed viciously before me that I met less than a year ago. And the team wouldn't have technically fallen apart with the loss of any of them, if you define it as such. None of them brought specific skills to the table that would make it impossible to get anything done without their existence.

Probably? As if there was a chance?

Yes. Being that it didn't happen we can't say for sure what he would have done.

And that is why Tifa is awesome, because she basically saved his life, both physically and psychologically/emotionally/whatever the accurate thing would be. Who the fuck needs optimism when you have someone actually willing to work you through your BS and the both of you coming out clean?

Don't mistake yourself, it's not like she jumped through galactic hoops to save Cloud's life or something. I don't personally think she wouldn't have tried to save him, but her position of caring for him wasn't a difficult one to make, and she fell in the Lifestream with Cloud. She cared for him, but she wasn't dying to solve his problems.

The thing is, I don't see how you even get any of this through this so called analysis of yours. Yes she was a dying breed, but she stopped caring eventually. I had no sense that she was a loved member of the party other than Cloud's super over reaction that makes him look borderline like Squall (to which Barret even expresses he was totally willing to shoot Cloud in the face because of it). I'm surprised you find meaning in this stuff, much less actually find it belieavable.

How do you find meaning in FFV's dialogue? Where are the lines that so clearly point out everyone in the game cared about Galuf enough to bother trying to save him?

You're literally continuing in this section to ask me questions that can be thrown right back with little to no change at all.

[Dark Sage]

I think part of the reason people like to badmouth Aeris's death scene is because the internet tends to treat her as the video game equivalent of Jesus Christ.

[Ein]

I knew this become a "Aeris is a terrible/endearing character" debate.

Which is funny because she's neither. Most people only like her because she has a pretty face and tits. Then again that's why most people like female characters in anything which is pretty damn sad. Oh man is she terrible just like the other characters in the game. /teehee

[Esau of Isaac]

Which is funny because she's neither. Most people only like her because she has a pretty face and tits.

[Ein]

Jesus... Could you at least not post something that isn't nauseatingly awful as a retort?

Edited June 15, 2012 by Ein Silver Rose

[Esau of Isaac]

Are you telling me you are not turned on by those luscious, full lips, and those perfect 'come hither' eyes? Are you seriously saying that you don't gaze with longing at her beautiful buxom bosom? Try and look at my face and say that your eyes do not catch on those wide hips, those plump thighs, those perfectly proportioned feet.

You can't do it. No one can.

Look at Cloud scoping out this fine female. He can barely contain himself, I know I can't.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Esau of Isaac

[1st Mate Bob]

I knew this become a "Aeris is a terrible/endearing character" debate.

Which is funny because she's neither. Most people only like her because she has a pretty face and tits. Then again that's why most people like female characters in anything which is pretty damn sad. Oh man is she terrible just like the other characters in the game. /teehee

I'll have you know that I don't like female characters solely on pretty faces and tits. I'm more of an ass man.

I'm not 100% sure where I stand on the Aerith issue. Overall I dislike her, but I'm not convinced of her importance either way.

As for FFVII's reputation OTHER than Aerith's death, the reason why the game gets so much love is because it was a gateway RPG for many gamers, as was already stated. However, a lot of the hate comes from either RPG haters, graphics snobs, people who found other RPGs to be better, or gamer hipsters. Another reason why it's loved is that when it came out, most gamers were teenagers or preteens, and we all thought Cloud was "cool" with his huge fucking sword, spiky hair, and "I don't give a fuck" attitude. Some people, after growing up, looked back and saw him to just be a whiny bitch.

As far as the story goes, I personally don't have too much of a problem with it. From what I recall, though, I don't remember there being much clarification for the justification of Sephiroth's actions. Was it REALLY all just a mommy issue thing? Does Crisis Core clear it up a bit? Because I don't fucking know.

[Esau of Isaac]

As far as the story goes, I personally don't have too much of a problem with it. From what I recall, though, I don't remember there being much clarification for the justification of Sephiroth's actions. Was it REALLY all just a mommy issue thing? Does Crisis Core clear it up a bit? Because I don't fucking know.

What are you specifically talking about? Do you mean his aims and overall objectives, or the reasoning he used to support them?

It actually changed multiple times over the series, and even in FFVII itself. I thought that was pretty neat, personally.

[1st Mate Bob]

His reasoning specifically. It's been a while since I've played this game so it's a bit foggy at the moment.

[Fala]

As one of the people who grew up with the Final Fantasy series I'm going to say it flat out:

FF7!Sephiroth is BORING! Seriously. To me he was doing everything he did because of his mommy complex. Well that and trolling the living hell out of Cloud.

CrisisCore! Sephy was a lot more interesting and made Sephy's road from hero to villian more believe able than in the original game.

[Esau of Isaac]

His reasoning specifically. It's been a while since I've played this game so it's a bit foggy at the moment.

His reasoning was originally to make the Promised Land a reality, after discovering that he was Jenova's "child". He believes humanity betrayed the Cetra in the past, and vows to punish them. After being killed and subsequently spending time in the Lifestream, he grows past this and discovers the reality of the Cetra and the Promised Land; the Promised Land is merely the Lifestream itself, where a person's soul goes to rest when it has died, becoming one with the planet. In addition, after absorbing the knowledge of the Ancients, he now of course knows that the calamity that destroyed the Cetra to which humanity abandoned them to was, in fact, Jenova, an alien terror from the skies of whose genetic material he himself is made of.

Plainly insane and having risen beyond his earlier, incorrect assumptions, Sephiroth vows to ascend to godlihood by becoming one with the Lifestream. He resolves to do this by crashing Meteor into the Northern Crater, as the Lifestream, in a reflexive attempt to heal grievous wounds to its "body", will converge at such a location.

And then there's Advent Children when he's just there to wreck shit.

As one of the people who grew up with the Final Fantasy series I'm going to say it flat out:

FF7!Sephiroth is BORING! Seriously. To me he was doing everything he did because of his mommy complex. Well that and trolling the living hell out of Cloud.

CrisisCore! Sephy was a lot more interesting and made Sephy's road from hero to villian more believe able than in the original game.

I disagree. Personally, I always thought he was multi-faceted, so long as the player journeyed to Nibelheim and saw the optional events with Zack and his end. It was in the rest of the Compilation that I thought Sephiroth became so much more generic. He changes very completely multiple times through the game, with different motivations and behavioral characteristics, and originally some of his plight is actually somewhat understandable before he goes cuckoo.

I think he was a great villain until he started being voiced and was all about plunging people into darkness or some shit. I can barely even acknowledge most of the dialogue in games like Dissidia as being halfway serious. Like really? This is what Cloud and Sephiroth have come to represent to their respective communities? A brooding, angst-filled mute and a generic Saturday-morning cartoon villain? I mean yeah, they both had elements of those archetypes, but what we see now are huge exaggerations of that.

[Life]

The real problem with Aeris is that she suffers from "forgotten character syndrome". She's important for some time (Midgar), is completely forgotten about for the rest of the game until you get to that weird temple with Cait Sith does his shit (the "I'm a robot and I'm sorry for selling you out" scene). Then she's magically important again until she dies. Of course, that's what happens when you have 7+2 questors in your party but can only use 3 to fight with.

Now, this wouldn't be a problem if she had a personality. But she's really made of cardboard. She truly has nothing to add to the party at any given moment (on a storyline view). Go play the game over and pay close attention from Kalm onwards. Aeris just isn't that terribly interesting or important.

The problem with FFVII is that they do this with a lot of their characters through the first disc (couldn't be assed to play through the second and onwards). Red XIII and Cait Sith suffer the same problem (minus the lack of personality) because they're basically not speaking unless spoken to or Cait Sith's betraying you. They're all forgotten characters essentially. In fact, if we substituted Cait Sith (Reeve to be honest) or Red XIII into the death scene instead of Aeris, people would be acting the same. Why? Because GJ already said it best. It's a shock death. It's not profound because it's Aeris (I actually was happy that the bitch died but that's me) but because SOMEONE died.

Unfortunately for the series, the forgotten character syndrome happens a lot from this point on. FF8 with Irvine and Quistis (I'm tempted to throw in Zell and Selphie but that would be lying), FF9 with Freya, FF10 with Lulu and Kimahri... these are characters who just aren't important unless spoken to. FF7 just set that trend.

My personal opinion on 7? Eh... story is a bitch to get through in my opinion. The game just personally bores me and I feel like I go places for no absolute reason. I prefer 5/6/9 over it in that respect. Every place that I go in one of those games has a purpose. Especially 6 (the ultimate "let's fuck around" game) because after Darill's Tomb, the game actually tells you to go fuck around until you want to pound Kefka's face in.

Also, on the case of villains, I will say that Seph doesn't even hit top 5 FF villains. Yes, it's true. Kefka, Kuja, Exdeath (only because he actually succeeds), Seymour and Jecht are above him. Exdeath is the only one that Seph might be cooler than but that being said, Exdeath did destroy the world complete and sorta killed your party.

As for the rest, pretty simple to explain.

Kefka - The only villain that 100% succeeds with his plan. Not to mention that Kefka is just straight up awesome and has the single greatest final boss music ever.

Jecht - His personality is really well done and keeps FF10 from being a snoozefest with the Tidus/Yuna relationship.

Seymour - That bug that just doesn't go away. Forget Shinra, this guy is the mother of all conspirators.

Kuja - The only villain who actually manages to kill your party 100% dead. That fight with Necron? Yeah, Zidane and co. are actually not living for it.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Life Admiral

[deuxhero]

In the same vein, here's Galuf:

"I can't remember who I am!"

"That is a truly original character archetype."

"How crazy would it be if it turned out I were royalty or something?"

"That would be as cliche as dying and then giving me encouragement from the afterlife."

What groundbreaking material here. No one has ever died saving the party, especially not in any preceding titles in the series.

You forgot

Galuf's very strong loyalty to his friends. When given the opportunity to flee from the Siren and keep his life, he is willing to stay and fight to protect the rest of the group.

Galuf also has his sense of humor that gets along well with his friends ("...Don't push it, kid. Here in Bal, bad jokes like that will get you

PUNished..." "That pun is so bad, I'm gonna fall on purpose...".)

There is also indication he isn't big on planning ahead (1: Steal pirate ship 2:???).