SB. Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 So you're saying she's bad because we're using worse units with her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Using faulty logic? Only responding to posts that have an easy answer available because they didn't elaborate a lot? Great Scott. We have to get this forum back to the future! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) So you're saying she's bad because we're using worse units with her? Uh...what? Let's think of an example. You're in charge of a company and the company is going to close down in a year. Earlygame: 4 months Midgame: 4 months Lategame: 4 months You have employees named Ike, Oscar, Titania, Kieran and Marcia. Titania brings in a lot of profit for the first 4 months of the company, which is the earlygame. However, the problem with Titania is that she does so much of the work that the other members can't gain enough experience to do work later during the lifetime of the company. Another problem is that Titania is already so experienced that she can't gain anymore. However, in midgame, the company starts to not be able to make as much money as before. Why? Because Titania stole so much of the spotlight that the other units weren't able to gain experience, and Titania became as good as useless midgame. The company director realizes that, instead of giving attention to Titania, he should've used her as sparsely as possible and instead give a lot of attention to employees like Ike, Oscar, Kieran and Marcia etc. because they have a lot more potential than Titania does. The company closes down after a year due to his stupid mistake. Weird example, but I hope that explains things. Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Yeah except Titania and the rest of the employees are already skilled enough that they can keep the company doing just fine for decades no matter what. You're not going to have any trouble completing FE9 regardless of what you do. Edited July 23, 2012 by Othin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I generally like raising low-level units because I think it's fun, but one simple reason that causes your metaphorical scenario to fall apart is that Titania could solo the game up till Ashnard if one so chooses. Titania has a shot at being roughly as good as anyone of your other best fighting units could be, when leveled. If she couldn't do work the whole game, she wouldn't be as valuable as she is, but she can, so she is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Yeah except Titania and the rest of the employees are already skilled enough that they can keep the company doing just fine for decades no matter what. You're not going to have any trouble completing FE9 regardless of what you do. It's not about completing the game, which can be done even with a silly thing like a Tormod solo. It's just about efficiency and other things in general. Not the playstyle I have in mind. but one simple reason that causes your metaphorical scenario to fall apart is that Titania could solo the game up till Ashnard if one so chooses Again, not the playstyle I have in mind. So can anyone else. Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 OP is wrong from most perspectives because reduced EXP gain is already factored in when Titania gains stats much slower than other units. The thing is that most jeigan units start out so far ahead that they stay ahead for long periods of time, so unless you put value into EXP gain itself (rather than the indirect benefit of it, that being level ups -> increased stat gain -> better combat parameters) it is not a disadvantage worth counting. Using faulty logic? Only responding to posts that have an easy answer available because they didn't elaborate a lot? Great Scott. We have to get this forum back to the future! implying the present isn't like that and is much worse in that regard but please continue to retcon history even though "Titania is best" was accepted long before FE10 was released Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frat_tastic Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 What exactly IS the playstyle you have in mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) The thing is that most jeigan units start out so far ahead that they stay ahead for long periods of time Not true at all. Oscar and Kieran start to outclass Titania by around chapter 15, which is when they promote. Even if Oscar and Kieran didn't outclass Titania, there's no reason to use Titania at all after earlygame, because Oscar and Kieran have so much more potential. Using faulty logic? Only responding to posts that have an easy answer available because they didn't elaborate a lot?Great Scott. We have to get this forum back to the future! Have you played this game? You're all talk, unfortunately, and no action. What exactly IS the playstyle you have in mind? Completing the game within bexp turn limits, or efficiency, or LTC. Just things in general that involve cutting turns. Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) It's not about completing the game, which can be done even with a silly thing like a Tormod solo. It's just about efficiency and other things in general. Not the playstyle I have in mind. Again, not the playstyle I have in mind. So can anyone else. Tormod exists for 40% of the game, so no, you can't. Playing through the game primarily with Titania means minimal turns and minimal resets, thereby completing the game as fast in in-game time and in real-time as possible. If you're calling for some standard of efficiency other than these, please state it, because you're given no way for anyone else to tell what the hell it is. Completing the game within bexp turn limits, or efficiency, or LTC. Just things in general that involve cutting turns. This is all done easily with heavy Titania use. So your goal is turns? Please state a turn goal for even a single chapter, either BExp-wise or otherwise, that can be reached more easily with less Titania use as opposed to more, and explain how exactly you propose that happens. Edited July 23, 2012 by Othin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frat_tastic Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 So....you're saying that you shouldn't use Titania earlygame because she's too good and "steals" EXP from your other units like Oscar, Boyd and Kieran and then you shouldn't use Titania at all after early game because she isn't good anymore compared to other units like Oscar, Boyd and Kieran? Well no shit she's not going to be better than them if you don't use her. Using Titania makes the most sense for virtually any style of playthrough. Maybe not a totally casual run through or where turns don't matter at all, but several people here can attest to the fact that Titania saves you a shit ton of turns in the early game and then everyone else is at a decent enough level from CEXP and BEXP that using her doesn't impact turn counts in the mid/late game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) So....you're saying that you shouldn't use Titania earlygame because she's too good and "steals" EXP from your other units like Oscar, Boyd and Kieran and then you shouldn't use Titania at all after early game because she isn't good anymore compared to other units like Oscar, Boyd and Kieran? Erm.. no. I'm saying she should be ditched completely after early game because she takes valuable exp from units like Oscar, Kieran, Ike, Marcia and Jill (who all have much more potential than her) and her turn-cutting potential completely disappears after Chapter 11. Why is such a unit overrated to ridiculous amounts? That's what I don't understand. Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Once again: please explain a specific goal that can be reached by dropping Titania and not otherwise. Say in a given situation you have Oscar/Marcia/Kieran/Jill/Ike at 20/10, or you have all of them at 20/6 and Titania at --/13. Which team do you think is going to be better? Clearly the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frat_tastic Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 But EXP isn't valuable. There's a ton of it to go around. Also no, her turn cutting potential doesn't just completely disappear. Even if you never have Titania fight after like chapter 11 (which would be stupid), she's still a 9-MOV ferry bot. Titania has decent enough stats that with access to forges she doesn't really fall behind. That plus the overabundance of EXP means that no one but you cares that she "steals" EXP from other units. There's always more to go around anyway, so it doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I'm curious, have you thought of applying the same logic to FE10!Haar as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Not true at all. Oscar and Kieran start to outclass Titania by around chapter 15, which is when they promote.Even if Oscar and Kieran didn't outclass Titania, there's no reason to use Titania at all after earlygame, because Oscar and Kieran have so much more potential. ... Half the game is a long period of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Once again: please explain a specific goal that can be reached by dropping Titania and not otherwise. Chapter 17-2: Kieran and Oscar need to be promoted in order to carry Mordecai and get a 2 turn. But EXP isn't valuable. There's a ton of it to go around. Not true at all, just check my LTC logs. I'm curious, have you thought of applying the same logic to FE10!Haar as well? Gigantic difference, because Haar has crazy amounts of potential whereas Titania is useless after earlygame. ... Half the game is a long period of time. Even if Oscar and Kieran didn't outclass Titania, there's no reason to use Titania at all after earlygame, because Oscar and Kieran have so much more potential. Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Chapter 17-2: Kieran and Oscar need to be promoted in order to carry Mordecai and get a 2 turn. They should not have trouble promoting whether you keep using Titania or not. You yourself said they should promote around Chapter 15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 They should not have trouble promoting whether you keep using Titania or not. You yourself said they should promote around Chapter 15. That was considering Titania leaving early game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HongLei Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Aeine quick question, have you ever played a draft? Because I was of the exact same mind set until I played my first draft and learned how much of a blessing Jeigans are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Even if Oscar and Kieran didn't outclass Titania, there's no reason to use Titania at all after earlygame, because Oscar and Kieran have so much more potential. Are we basing units on potential or ability to reach BEXP limits? Even then, I am fairly sure that Titania is required to reach a lot of BEXP limits in the early game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotguner159 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 quote name='Aeine' date='23 July 2012 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1343064564' post='2071416'] I'm simply saying that she's overrated because she only contributes earlygame and sucks after that when units like Oscar and Kieran need exp. She contributes for the entire game, and is useful whenever we use her, regardless of whether we use Oscar and Kieran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Just for the record, I play two different ways nowadays. 1) Drafting, in which I DO aim for LTC 2) Regular plays, in which I do whatever the heck I feel like In FE7 drafting, which is 99% of what I do, Marcus is awesome. He helps me shave off so many turns, I've really seen my TCs improve since I started using him efficiently. By the time he's banned in drafts, my team is good enough to hold their own weight. But Marcus has saved me so many turns in early game that I would've have been able to save without him. In regular play, I don't tend to use Marcus. I like to give my other units as much EXP early as I can. But it doesn't matter, because I'm not aiming for TC nor am I telling anyone about how good a character is based on regular play. I just do whatever the heck I want. So ... why should we penalize Jeigans? Whether we use them or not is a playstyle on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) BEXP limits: 1: 4 turns 2: 5 turns 3: 6 turns 4: 4 turns 6: 9 turns 7: 11 turns 9: 8 turns 11: 7 turns I'm 100% sure I could get all those limits without Titania at all except maybe 2. In fact, I may even consider doing a quick earlygame playthrough tomorrow just to prove she's not necessary. Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Okay so Titania is required for max BEXP in 2 chapters How many is Kieran needed for? What about Oscar? I'm pretty sure it's less than 2 Edit: Also why is Chapter 10 being ignored? Edited July 23, 2012 by Paperblade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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