Penalizing Jeigans

[Dark Sage]

I like how this discussion is typical of any other FE discussion.

Love you guys~

Yeah how about you leave this thread and go back to lusting after Nono or whatever it is you do kthanx bai.

Also what is this, 4-5 years ago? I thought these "Jeigans hog EXP hurr durr" arguments died by then.

[Florete]

Dang, I should have noticed this topic sooner. Unfortunately, a lot of what I might have said has already been said.

BEXP limits:

1: 4 turns

2: 5 turns

3: 6 turns

4: 4 turns

6: 9 turns

7: 11 turns

9: 8 turns

11: 7 turns

I'm 100% sure I could get all those limits without Titania at all except maybe 2. In fact, I may even consider doing a quick earlygame playthrough tomorrow just to prove she's not necessary.

I don't think we got an answer for "Why do we only need to worry about BEXP limits?" I mean, if your goal isn't LTC and is instead just max BEXP...well then nothing actually changes because Titania still wrecks so hard early game (not being "necessary" doesn't mean she won't make things a lot easier) and is more useful than more units for the majority of the rest of the game.

The fact of the matter is that even a liberally-used Titania still cleans most enemies up just as well as any other unit by mid to late game. She might need a stronger weapon at times, but you haven't said anything about money problems so I assume you realize that FE9 (and most FEs) is stuffed to the brim with cash. And a liberally-used Titania means other units have probably been fed lots of that game-changing experience.

[Anouleth]

A problem I've had with people not penalizing Jeigans and assuming that they're used as much as possible to be efficient is that they take valuable experience from other units and are unable to use it as effectively as other units.

All combat units "take" experience from other units.

For example:

Titania, who gains 2 exp per battle.

Oscar, who gains 30 exp per battle.

Why does this matter? Titania could gain 200 exp per battle and it wouldn't affect this comparison, since even if she gained 200EXP every battle it wouldn't meaningfully affect her performance.

The cost for using Titania is that the exp she gains is wasted early on, because she can't use it to increase her stats and promote, while Oscar can.

Except that Titania doesn't need to increase her stats and promote. All you have proven is that Oscar needs exp and that Titania does not: I do not see how that is a point in Oscar's favour.

It's actually a bad idea to use a unit like Titania for the sake of efficiency early on, because if your units are weak, then you won't be able to cut as many turns lategame or even midgame. It's actually a much better idea to use a unit like Titania as little as possible.

Except that Titania is not weaker than Oscar in midgame or even lategame. The only advantage Oscar has is having 4 more weight. Unless you are trying for a minimal turn count, this is not a particularly useful advantage.

The smallest amount possible to use Titania is not at all. You are, to my knowledge, never forced to have her enter combat.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Anouleth

[Anouleth]

Since when did I deny that?

Again, that's not the point. I've seen people like Mekkah and Anouleth argue that her exp hogging can't be used against her, which is plain false, as I hope my playthrough has shown. The point is that I've seen so many people worship her and turn her into some sort of turn-cutting goddess that she isn't.

It can't be used against her. Titania is not unique in that when she kills an enemy, the experience does not go to another unit. That is true of every single combat unit in the game. I accept your premise that Titania's lower weight means she cannot do certain tricks later on in the game, and that is a minor advantage that Oscar and Kieran have over her, and it means that if you are playing absolutely optimally they will take preference for BEXP/CEXP. But by that same mark, every character is an exp hog that should never be used. Using Oscar makes it harder to train Kieran, just as much as using Titania does. The important difference between Oscar and Titania is not that Titania gains less experience or that there's a smaller "benefit" or any of that vague woolly bullshit, the difference is that 4 points of weight. If Titania had 35 weight instead of 31, this entire thread would be so much trash and you wouldn't care about Titania gaining 2 exp against Oscar's 30.

So really this thread should be titled "Titania doesn't weigh enough".

The point is that it's stupid if you use Titania after earlygame because she has no potential at all. The cost of using Titania is greater than the cost of using Oscar because Titania has low potential,

Because Titania has 4 less weight. Which has nothing to do with her being a Jeigan.

And Titania certainly does have potential. Like, the only difference between her and Oscar is that small amount of weight, and I think some supports, because her high axe rank makes up for his better strength.

and cannot level up as quickly as Oscar can.

What the fuck does this have to do with anything? Guess who else levels up quickly? FE10 Astrid. Whoop dee fucking doo.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Just for the record, I play two different ways nowadays.

1) Drafting, in which I DO aim for LTC

2) Regular plays, in which I do whatever the heck I feel like

In FE7 drafting, which is 99% of what I do, Marcus is awesome. He helps me shave off so many turns, I've really seen my TCs improve since I started using him efficiently. By the time he's banned in drafts, my team is good enough to hold their own weight. But Marcus has saved me so many turns in early game that I would've have been able to save without him.

In regular play, I don't tend to use Marcus. I like to give my other units as much EXP early as I can. But it doesn't matter, because I'm not aiming for TC nor am I telling anyone about how good a character is based on regular play. I just do whatever the heck I want.

So ... why should we penalize Jeigans? Whether we use them or not is a playstyle on its own.

Hmmhmm.. I dont draft but like, yeah This is more or less the thing i agree with.

That is a fallacy. You can use Titania while not stealing EXP from the other units. Sometimes it's better to kill That Annoying Boss with her/be more daring and risk taking with her than do it the hard way.

Precisely. I did a transfer run once where Ol' Tits ended up being used all game and joined the Level 20 club with 7 other units. So yeah really, no EXP was lost.

In general, i tend to not use Jeigan characters as much in most of my playthroughs because thats how i roll. However, that Jeigan is usually kicking it on the map anyway for back up or utility purposes. Titania in FE9 is no different. Im really not seeing the OP's logic. I understand the whole "stealin' yer XP" thing but i dont understand how Titania or any other Jeigan would hurt a LTC run in the long run. I dont go for super low turn counts anyway but when i do a "get all the BEXP" run or any run thats efficient, no one is suffering if the Jeigan is deployed and used. I doubt people are actually soloing the game(s) with the Jeigan to get LTC anyway. Unless yer Lumi with her Seth Only runs.

I used to be in the "JEIGANS ARE BUTTHOLES FOR STEALIN' MY EXP!" camp too until i realized thats not really true depending on playstyle. Theres a difference between using the Jeigan and ABUSING the Jeigan.

[Thor Odinson]

Unless yer Lumi with her Seth Only runs.

:P

Sethsolo was more of "let's see how hard I can make Seth rape this game by himself because he's sexy" than LTC anyway. In fact, it was far from LTC because I took a pretty long time on certain maps thanks to base Eirika dragging me down. Pretty sure other characters actually exist on LTC runs as long as they're useful there.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I always figured that most LTC runs involve the Jeigan, that one prepromote (like Duessel), the fliers, and early promoted cavs.

[Espinosa]

Isn't the use of Duessel detrimental to LTCing? At least on Eirika's route.

[Loki Laufeyson]

He is? Well i can see why on Eirika's route. But Ephraim's?