To prove Titania hogs exp

[Dr. Tarrasque]

There's and edit button people. Use it.

[Chiki]

Has the amount of turns Titania saves by "stealing" this experience been taken into account yet?

Huh? I was trying to suggest that she "steals" it after Chapter 11. After that point, it's obviously 0.

Personally I'd go with, for a tier list:

Goddess Tier

--------------------

Marcia

Jill

Titania Tier

--------------------

Titania

Top Tier

--------------------

xxx

And so on.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Aeine

[Lord Raven]

Sorry, but your playthrough is totally different from mine and they can't even be compared. I've done this same playthrough twice before and couldn't even get Ike to level 20 in either of them, and barely got Kieran and Oscar promoted by 17-1.

They can be compared. The fact that you couldn't get Ike to level 20 means that you probably messed up somewhere in the resource allocation department. The fact is that I used twice as many characters as you with only around 1.5x the BEXP at best and I could get Ike to Level 20. What's your excuse? Edited July 29, 2012 by Lord Raven

[FionordeQuester]

They can be compared. The fact that you couldn't get Ike to level 20 means that you probably messed up somewhere in the resource allocation department. The fact is that I used twice as many characters as you with only around 1.5x the BEXP at best and I could get Ike to Level 20. What's your excuse?

First of all, 1.5x the BEXP sounds like a lot of extra BEXP to me. Secondly, all that means is that maybe you gave everyone else less BEXP while giving Ike the lion's share of it. Also, unless you've actually done an absolute minimum turn run as opposed to merely an "efficient" run like both Gergeshwan and General_Horace sometimes do, you can't say for certain whether Aeine is right or wrong. You can voice your doubts, but you can't say that for certain.

Edited July 30, 2012 by FionordeQuester

[Lord Raven]

1.5x the BEXP is not that much more if you're raising Tormod, Makalov, Boyd, Oscar, Kieran, Astrid, Soren, Ike, Jill, Titania, and Marcia. The only extra source of BEXP I have is stealth BEXP anyway- and he is only raising Marcia, Oscar, Kieran, Ilyana, and Ike, and Mia. He should have absolutely nothing to complain about.

I got Ike to 20 in 17-3 btw, it's very easy to get him kills there even if his spd is halved.

[bottlegnomes]

That still doesn't address if your run was an absolute LTC. What were your TCs vs Aeine's. If yours are higher, you could have had places to get Ike experience whereas Aeine wouldn't.

[FionordeQuester]

That and, we don't know just how high you actually raised your other characters, or WHEN you gave them BEXP. If possible, could you please provide a link to your playthrough so we can see what you're saying for ourselves?

[Lord Raven]

It's on Page 1

That still doesn't address if your run was an absolute LTC. What were your TCs vs Aeine's. If yours are higher, you could have had places to get Ike experience whereas Aeine wouldn't.

Ike is Level 10 by the end of Chapter 11 (as I have stated), I have maybe 5-6 turns less than him between 11 and 17-4. Enough for Ike to get a level at the very most.

[FionordeQuester]

I don't know if you forgot to post it, but I don't see it.

[Hawk King]

Aeine, are you playing on fixed or random growths? On random growths, Ike doesnt need to reach LV 20 since you could just make sure his level 15 stats are blessed enough to compare to LV 20 averages.

@ Raven- Youre efficient playthrough was on random mode. You know, where you can give Bexp in specific increments to save THOUSANDS of Bexp. Of course you had plenty. Random growth mode is too easy to manipulate LV ups and get overkill stats anyway.

Yeah sure, Fixed mode Bexp can be manipulated too, but its stupid and makes stat growth screwed up. These "efficient" playthroughs should be on fixed mode, otherwise they lose credibility in my opinion. And Bexp should be give in amont of 10 and up.

Tier lists assume average, or close to average stats when making arguments right??

[Lord Raven]

So you are saying that anyone playing efficiency in a game outside of FE9 is not credible just because of random mode; fixed mode only exists in FE9 so the only credible efficiency playthroughs are in FE9, so anyone playing efficiently in FE6/7/8/10/11/12/13 is not credible. Fixed mode is more convenient to manipulate anyway, and these "bexp in 10 level increments" is adding a rather arbitrary rule to this whole thing, so you're just grasping at straws to try and make my playthrough seem less credible when I clearly have an idea of what I'm talking about.

Of course, after you more or less said "you don't need to make sure Ike is at Level 20, just fix his level 15 stats to be his Level 20 stats!" as if his run is somehow more credible than mine as a result. In other words, shut up.

I don't know if you forgot to post it, but I don't see it.

It's called "Efficiency Playlog" and it's on page 1.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Chiki]

They can be compared. The fact that you couldn't get Ike to level 20 means that you probably messed up somewhere in the resource allocation department. The fact is that I used twice as many characters as you with only around 1.5x the BEXP at best and I could get Ike to Level 20. What's your excuse?

"What's your excuse?" Seriously?

[Hawk King]

Geez man, im not attacking you. Im just trying to point out that depending on how you're using the Bexp, you can make it stretch alot farther than normal. Something you did in your playthrough, which causes you to say that there is plenty of Bexp. Aeine might not be able to take advantage of that therefore the amount of Bexp he has might not be enough.

Playing on random mode and reseting for amazing level ups is like playing the other games tool-assisted. FE9 is different, it has fixed mode and there is absolutely no reason not to use it for an efficiency playthrough. Which comes to the next point of refraining from abusing fixed mode.

The point about abusing for Ike's stats was just that if he is already playing on random and is manipulating LV ups anyways he mind as well just do that instead of worrying about getting Ike enough Exp. I certainly don't condone it.

[Chiki]

When I played on random mode I actually had the exact same amount of bexp and levels I did before. I don't restart for level ups much in general with few exceptions (20 magic Ike).

[Lord Raven]

Geez man, im not attacking you. Im just trying to point out that depending on how you're using the Bexp, you can make it stretch alot farther than normal. Something you did in your playthrough, which causes you to say that there is plenty of Bexp. Aeine might not be able to take advantage of that therefore the amount of Bexp he has might not be enough.

What's wrong with stretching your resources as far as you can?

Playing on random mode and reseting for amazing level ups is like playing the other games tool-assisted. FE9 is different, it has fixed mode and there is absolutely no reason not to use it for an efficiency playthrough. Which comes to the next point of refraining from abusing fixed mode.

I never reset for level ups past the first couple chapters. I did restart at the beginning because i kept getting these dumbshit skl/res level ups all the time, though, but i never reset for level ups after that point. There is nothing wrong with playing on random mode, because both are easy to abuse.

The point about abusing for Ike's stats was just that if he is already playing on random and is manipulating LV ups anyways he mind as well just do that instead of worrying about getting Ike enough Exp. I certainly don't condone it.

Then if thats the case, this experiment's pretty much a bust.

"What's your excuse?" Seriously?

I don't know how you could be handling your resources in a way that somehow prevents Ike from hitting 20 by 17-4. I doubt it's because there's not enough EXP.

I'd like to point out, once again, that nobody is particularly furious with this if this is the point you're trying to make:

Huh? I was trying to suggest that she "steals" it after Chapter 11. After that point, it's obviously 0.

Personally I'd go with, for a tier list:

Goddess Tier

--------------------

Marcia

Jill

Titania Tier

--------------------

Titania

Top Tier

--------------------

xxx

And so on.

Because I was getting around to making that argument when everything in my life was over (i'll gladly go on a rant about just how busy the past year has been for me, because if i wasn't at school i'd be helping my dad out with work and, as a result, be working 50-60 hours a week with no pay). I have two more weeks of internship and then maybe I'll have the energy to start arguing it, because it's a point I've been wanting to make but the energy I've had was just non existent, considering the amount of backlash I'd get. I don't think saying Titania "hogs" exp after chapter 11 is the right way to make the point, since there's not htat much CEXP in this game anyway (since i only recall oscar/kieran getting like 20/kill in chapter 11 or something).

Edited July 30, 2012 by Lord Raven

[dondon151]

@ Raven- Youre efficient playthrough was on random mode. You know, where you can give Bexp in specific increments to save THOUSANDS of Bexp.

No you can't.

[Hawk King]

@ dondon

uh yeah you can. Over the course of the game you can save quite a bit. Easily a couple thousand. Ask Lord Raven, he once posted a link to a site that shows you exactly how much you save at every level.

@ Raven

There is nothing wrong with stretching resourses, and I never said there was. I was just pointing out that YOU CANT STRETCH BEXP ON FIXED MODE WITHOUT SCREWING UP STAT GROWTHS. You are being a self-righteous ass to Aeine about his use of resourses when your stretching of Bexp is something he is unable to do. Do you understand now??

[Lord Raven]

If you want to screw up stat growths with BEXP that is perfectly alright because those results are easily replicable in that instance with careful use of BEXP. That is still stretching your resources. And of course I'm going to be an ass, I've posted my thoughts and I've heard nothing resembling a real response ("our goals" are different is not a response in the slightest).

[dondon151]

uh yeah you can. Over the course of the game you can save quite a bit. Easily a couple thousand. Ask Lord Raven, he once posted a link to a site that shows you exactly how much you save at every level.

Uh no you can't. I'm perfectly aware of this table (moreso than you are). I've done the quick calcs and you're maybe saving just over 1000 BEXP over the course of the game. That's like what, 7 extra levels on average? Big deal.

[Hawk King]

It really depends on when you decide to use the Bexp to level your units LV ups. Higher leveled units (LV14-20) save more than lower leveled units (LV3-11). You know this, I dont need to tell you. I think it would be perfectly possible to save closer to 2000 over the course of the game if you managed it correctly.

I may have exaggerated a bit but in this case, saving just 300 Bexp, for example, before Chapter 17 would result in 3 extra levels for Ike, and that would be pretty significant.

[Anouleth]

Personally I'd go with, for a tier list:

Goddess Tier

--------------------

Marcia

Jill

Titania Tier

--------------------

Titania

Top Tier

--------------------

xxx

And so on.

Nobody is stopping you from making this list. And surely Jill won't be recruited?

Titania's fault, because:

1. Oscar needs the exp, unlike Titania.

So if Titania was a lower level and had lower stats and needed more experience, she'd be a better unit?

Oscar + Kieran need to work as a duo for the turn cut.

So if Titania had 4 more weight, she wouldn't hog experience? How does that work? I don't remember weight having an effect on experience gain.

2. It's perfectly possible to use Kieran and Oscar and have both of them just be ready to promote by 17-1. But it's not possible to use Titania, Kieran and Oscar and have both of them be ready to promote by 17-1.

It's also possible to do Titania + Kieran and Titania + Oscar. So why is Titania "at fault" but they are not? Why is the opportunity cost of EXP higher for Titania than it is for Oscar or Kieran?

[Chiki]

So if Titania was a lower level and had lower stats and needed more experience, she'd be a better unit?

She'd be worse. If she had Oscar and Kieran's weight, I'd totally pick her over Oscar/Kieran any day.

So if Titania had 4 more weight, she wouldn't hog experience? How does that work? I don't remember weight having an effect on experience gain.

Because giving her experience wouldn't be a waste, like it is now.

My definition of hog is: not being able to put limited experience to worthwhile use.

It's also possible to do Titania + Kieran and Titania + Oscar. So why is Titania "at fault" but they are not? Why is the opportunity cost of EXP higher for Titania than it is for Oscar or Kieran?

No, you can't, because that costs us a turn. Remember, you need to rescue-take-drop Mordecai with both Kieran and Oscar on turn 1 of 17-2.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Aeine

[Anouleth]

She'd be worse. If she had Oscar and Kieran's weight, I'd totally pick her over Oscar/Kieran any day.

So really, this thread should be titled "Titania doesn't have enough weight", not "Titania hogs EXP". Or even "EXP is limited in midgame", since the conclusions would apply equally to all characters rather than just Titania.

Because giving her experience wouldn't be a waste, like it is now.

My definition of hog is: not being able to put limited experience to worthwhile use.

Then the word "hog" would indeed, apply to every combat unit in the game. Even Marcia doesn't put limited experience to worthwhile use after a certain point.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Anouleth

[Chiki]

Then the word "hog" would indeed, apply to every combat unit in the game. Even Marcia doesn't put limited experience to worthwhile use after a certain point.

No, she puts the experience to worthwhile use even during Endgame.

[Anouleth]

No, she puts the experience to worthwhile use even during Endgame.

Not talking about Endgame. Would you give Marcia 100% of your BEXP when she joins? Why not? Because after she promotes in midgame and reaches high enough stats to kill Muarim, it's not worthwhile to give her more experience straight away (because it could also go to Oscar or Kieran or Mist). And obviously if she's blessed, she reaches that point earlier.