To prove Titania hogs exp

[Ardan]

I was eagerly awaiting a photoshop of a hog's face onto titania.

The op was a massive letdown

[Anouleth]

The whole "we should worship Marcus/Seth/Titania and the ground they walk on" worship is getting out of hand. They're good, but I wish people would just tone it down. It'd be like if Smogon constantly went on and on about how SB Blaziken destroys OU and how that's awesome.

I agree that the hyperbole that people use to describe them can get excessive: especially FE9 Titania who, while good and arguably the best character, is not even close to being in a league of her own.

[shadowofchaos]

The whole "we should worship Marcus/Seth/Titania and the ground they walk on" worship is getting out of hand. They're good, but I wish people would just tone it down. It'd be like if Smogon constantly went on and on about how SB Blaziken destroys OU and how that's awesome.

Now, I wish SOMEONE here said his OPINION in this TOLERABLE manner on a CERTAIN Tales thread in this forum instead of going on a certain CRUSADE on taking out a MAIN CHARACTER for a Tales Crossover Fighting game for the PSP.

Sure, and I agree, and you don't see us rushing around all the forums throwing all the mud we can at Titania (and oddly only Titania) because of some vague and undefined reason. I'm not really questioning his message here, I'm questioning his motives.

You know, I love how when we're "White Knighting" for the right reason, simply asking "Why?"... people who hate characters throw out the "you mad?" card. Calling us out for ad hominem when it's pretty much only a result of "Hey, I could have chosen my words better, but you're gonna capitalize on that by completely focusing on them exclusively and not answer."

Technically, we could call him out on a "Red Herring".

[Paperblade]

Actually it would probably be more this:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Style_over_substance_fallacy

[General Banzai]

Let the fellow do the playlog in peace.

I disagree with the position, but honestly, if one of you were dropped onto a desert forum where the natives still sacrificed Jeigans to their giant stone Nino idols, you'd try to say something about it as well.

[Lord Raven]

Most people would just leave, if someone still did that

[bottlegnomes]

I have to agree with Banzai. What does it say that we're hellbent on refusing to accept something when the person arguing it is willing to put in the time and effort to demonstrate it for the sole purpose of demonstrating it? If his conclusion supports his hypothesis, we'll have something to think about. From there, we can inspect his data, test it further, and come to a more generalized conclusion. If his conclusion doesn't support his hypotesis, I hope he's willing to accept that he was wrong.

I don't agree with the hypothesis, but challenging general beliefs is part of discovering new things.

That said, good luck, and I kind of hope you disprove your argument so I can keep dickriding Titania :P

[Florete]

I have to agree with Banzai. What does it say that we're hellbent on refusing to accept something when the person arguing it is willing to put in the time and effort to demonstrate it for the sole purpose of demonstrating it? If his conclusion supports his hypothesis, we'll have something to think about. From there, we can inspect his data, test it further, and come to a more generalized conclusion. If his conclusion doesn't support his hypotesis, I hope he's willing to accept that he was wrong.

I don't agree with the hypothesis, but challenging general beliefs is part of discovering new things.

That said, good luck, and I kind of hope you disprove your argument so I can keep dickriding Titania :P

If someone told you 2 + 2 = 5, would you say they're wrong or re-examine your math to be sure it is actually 4?

I mean, sure, he can go ahead and do it if he wants, I don't think anyone cares to stop him, but we are where we are today because we got past the idea he's trying to prove. We've done the math and checked it twice. Re-examining his argument is only taking steps back and he's got a hell of a mission on his hands if he wants most people here to even consider the possibility of his argument being valid.

I'll give him credit for his approach, though. He is at least thinking under a more modern mindset (no "Nino is da best"-type bullshit), isn't being too childish in his responses, and is taking a serious, legitimate approach to defend his point with this playthrough. That at least makes it worth watching out for.

[Ciarre]

From a purely LTC standpoint, I could see where he's coming from.

I don't think we should be so quick to disregard what he's saying since most of us don't play pure LTC.

[bottlegnomes]

If someone told you 2 + 2 = 5, would you say they're wrong or re-examine your math to be sure it is actually 4?

I mean, sure, he can go ahead and do it if he wants, I don't think anyone cares to stop him, but we are where we are today because we got past the idea he's trying to prove. We've done the math and checked it twice. Re-examining his argument is only taking steps back and he's got a hell of a mission on his hands if he wants most people here to even consider the possibility of his argument being valid.

I'll give him credit for his approach, though. He is at least thinking under a more modern mindset (no "Nino is da best"-type bullshit), isn't being too childish in his responses, and is taking a serious, legitimate approach to defend his point with this playthrough. That at least makes it worth watching out for.

Well first, there's the fact that your analogy is significantly more simplistic that the actual situation. I know that's not really a strong point, as analogies are supposed to be comparatively simple, but you're making him seem more obviously wrong than he is. Second, if the person were qualified, I might. Aine does have the record for LTC of anyone in Tellius as far as I know. I'd say he's fairly qualified to speak on the subject. Heck, dondon has even said he's fairly credible, just that he's too one-track minded. I wouldn't be easily convinced, but I'd be willing to let him try to prove it and succede or fail, rather than shouting him down.

Edited July 26, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[VGE]

(with the exception of Chapter 16, because it's impossible to get the Full Guard without her)

I almost NEVER use Titania, and yet, on every playthrough, I've gotten the Full Guard. [Which, if I recall correctly, is in a chest.]

WEIRD, HUH? She's even useless then, lol. Granted, I've play through the game on easy -- BECAUSE -- I need a quick runthrough of the game, to get either support conversations recorded, or just straight to endgame. Basically, with Oscar, Kieran, Makalov, or Astrid [those four at the top of my head for knights] being promoted should do the trick, but I'm sure it's hard to have a promoted unit by CHAPTER FRIGGIN 16, lawl.

[Titamon]

If stat rigging is allowed then why can't Titania receive the same treatment?

[Zkirsche]

If stat rigging is allowed then why can't Titania receive the same treatment?

I don't believe stat rigging is allowed:

I won't use any exploits and restart chapters for crits and such, so it'll be a pure efficiency playthrough--going for the lowest possible turncounts without abusing luck at all.

I mean, sure, he can go ahead and do it if he wants, I don't think anyone cares to stop him, but we are where we are today because we got past the idea he's trying to prove. We've done the math and checked it twice. Re-examining his argument is only taking steps back and he's got a hell of a mission on his hands if he wants most people here to even consider the possibility of his argument being valid.

Paperblade mentioned that Titania was considered the best before FE10 was even released, but that doesn't really matter seeing as how far debating standards have evolved over the years, it is entirely possible for any previously established argument to be revoked and I think people are forgetting that. We shouldn't be so stubborn as to reject the possibility for further testing on any topic, regardless of how incredible it may seem. This is especially true on topics, such as this one, which have been cast aside as fact for years without any recent analysis. (Although again, I think it is likely that Titania will be found useful).

I bolded the important part, but all of it is relevant. Stubbornly accepting something as truth is taking steps back, not re-examining an old argument for flaws.

Edited July 26, 2012 by kirsche

[Snowy_One]

That ideas change over time is something a lot of people seem to forget. What we may 'know' to be true now can very easily end up changing a year or two down the line. When I partook in my first tier-list debate the focus was almost entirely on end-game power and there was no thought at all given to lower turncounts. Being unable to counter ranged attacks on the EP doomed Mia to the bottom of the tier list for being 'frail' while Zihark had AVO and Stefan had stats, Marcia was roughly middle-tiered and considered difficult to raise, but worth it if raised, and Makalov was ranked MUCH lower because he was difficult to raise and joined late. I know some of you are laughing but... the thing is... Those things made sense at the time. Sure, standards have changed over time, but that doesn't mean that list was suddenly irrefutably WRONG. Just outdated.

A lot of people seem to thing that 'more evolved = better', which is simply not true. Yes, more-evolved creatures tend to last longer/better, but that's not the case. Some become over-specialized, some lose adaptations that would have helped in other situations, and some just simply don't matter all that much. Lungfish (or was it Hagfish?) have been around since the time of the dinosaurs practically unchanged. Sure, they lose to sharks in a fight, but they managed to outlive such a huge majority of life on Earth as well. Meanwhile the giant birds that followed in the wake of the dinosaurs were the 'top' of their chain... and ended up going extinct.

Likewise with tier lists 'more evolved' doesn't mean better. We may have removed some notions that were considered 'silly' but that doesn't mean the new notions are any less stupid. Anyone who knows me knows I despise LTC tier lists as I consider them far too specialized in use. LTC lists may be a good thing as they provide measurable standards, or they may end up becoming too overly specialized and end up vanishing away when some FE game gets released where fast chapter completion is largely irreverent. Titania may be the best forever, or something new could happen that alters her standing.

I support testing Titania out to see if she really is 'all that', but I wish people would realize that she may, very well, NOT be 'all that'.

[Lord Raven]

I almost NEVER use Titania, and yet, on every playthrough, I've gotten the Full Guard. [Which, if I recall correctly, is in a chest.]

WEIRD, HUH? She's even useless then, lol. Granted, I've play through the game on easy -- BECAUSE -- I need a quick runthrough of the game, to get either support conversations recorded, or just straight to endgame. Basically, with Oscar, Kieran, Makalov, or Astrid [those four at the top of my head for knights] being promoted should do the trick, but I'm sure it's hard to have a promoted unit by CHAPTER FRIGGIN 16, lawl.

This is in a more efficiently-orientated playthrough of HM, where Titania is very useful in helping you get the Full Guard. It's easy to have promoted units by then, also. ~_~

I bolded the important part, but all of it is relevant. Stubbornly accepting something as truth is taking steps back, not re-examining an old argument for flaws.

The point that is being made is much stronger than it should be. That's the problem. It's not the content, it's the fact that he outright says it's a "bad idea" when it's not a "bad idea" because Titania doesn't really do anything once you get access to fliers. Nor does everyone else but Ike, but it's easy to have Ike strong enough to take on myriads of enemies near a throne or escape point (even with raising Titania after chapter 11 or 12) or anything to that extent. His idea also suggests that we lack EXP in this game to raise other units... also something that is not correct in the slightest. Finally, that Ilyana is better than Soren and Tormod, which has been shown to be false time and time again.

We're not re-examining old arguments for flaws, the old arguments still exist, it just happens that a group of people agree with Marcia/Jill > Titania... now, the way to approach this is a) sandbag the hell out of Titania or b) praise the hell out of Marcia/Jill. Titania is still > Oscar, Kieran, Boyd, Ike, etc (pretty sure Aeine agrees), so I think Aeine is taking approach a). Obviously the wrong way to go about it, because it creates shitstorms like the other thread, and it creates reactions like our current ones.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Anouleth]

That ideas change over time is something a lot of people seem to forget. What we may 'know' to be true now can very easily end up changing a year or two down the line. When I partook in my first tier-list debate the focus was almost entirely on end-game power and there was no thought at all given to lower turncounts. Being unable to counter ranged attacks on the EP doomed Mia to the bottom of the tier list for being 'frail' while Zihark had AVO and Stefan had stats, Marcia was roughly middle-tiered and considered difficult to raise, but worth it if raised, and Makalov was ranked MUCH lower because he was difficult to raise and joined late. I know some of you are laughing but... the thing is... Those things made sense at the time. Sure, standards have changed over time, but that doesn't mean that list was suddenly irrefutably WRONG. Just outdated.

No, they were wrong. It's one thing to have outdated standards, but as I recall, many older tier lists were atrocious at actually applying those standards in any rigorous way. I remember the days of bottom tier Syrene, of FE10 Soren being considered good, and so on. There are still people who defend characters that seem to us, undefendable under anything but the most warped tier list standards imaginable (like Wendy, who barely beats Treck in 20/20 stats).

It's fine to have different standards. The problem is that when you get down to the bones of the issue, most people really do apply efficiency standards, even if it's in a different way or inconsistently, or they don't call it that for fear of association with inflexible tier list standards. Killing enemies is good. Completing chapters is good. Not dying is good. Reaching objectives quickly is good. Even you agree with all of this.

Likewise with tier lists 'more evolved' doesn't mean better. We may have removed some notions that were considered 'silly' but that doesn't mean the new notions are any less stupid. Anyone who knows me knows I despise LTC tier lists as I consider them far too specialized in use. LTC lists may be a good thing as they provide measurable standards, or they may end up becoming too overly specialized and end up vanishing away when some FE game gets released where fast chapter completion is largely irreverent. Titania may be the best forever, or something new could happen that alters her standing.

I support testing Titania out to see if she really is 'all that', but I wish people would realize that she may, very well, NOT be 'all that'.

So basically, you want the scope of the tier lists to be even narrower, right after complaining that they're too specialised? You want the tier list to focus like a laser on the absolute minimum turncount possible, in which Titania is not useful because she lacks the weight to contribute meaningfully to a 2 turn strategy on 17-2? And really, Aeine is not the first person to consider Titania being below Marcia/Jill, so don't act like this is some dramatic paradigm shift.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Anouleth

[Zkirsche]

The point that is being made is much stronger than it should be. That's the problem. It's not the content, it's the fact that he outright says it's a "bad idea" when it's not a "bad idea" because Titania doesn't really do anything once you get access to fliers.

The last statement isn't true in the slightest, chapter 14 gives little benefit to fliers, 16 has no benefits to fliers, 18 has minimal, 19 has minimal, 26 has minimal and 27 has none. Even in chapters which do have benefits to fliers, ballistae can still be a problem and 25 is a rout and good luck killing everyone efficiently with just 2 characters.

What the objective is is to find out if using Titania speeds up these chapters or not. If not then yes, using Titania over other characters is a bad idea, or at least a not-the-very-best scenario, if that's what you're nitpicking at.

Finally, that Ilyana is better than Soren and Tormod, which has been shown to be false time and time again.

The point of this run has nothing to do with that, so you bringing this up has absolutely 0 relevance.

We're not re-examining old arguments for flaws, the old arguments still exist, it just happens that a group of people agree with Marcia/Jill > Titania... now, the way to approach this is a) sandbag the hell out of Titania or b) praise the hell out of Marcia/Jill. Titania is still > Oscar, Kieran, Boyd, Ike, etc (pretty sure Aeine agrees), so I think Aeine is taking approach a).

What? Yes, yes he IS looking at old arguments for flaws. Said old argument being that there is enough exp to go around, he is testing this theory out for himself in an attempt to prove it false (I think that there is enough exp to go around but there is literally no gain in stopping him from trying, for either of us).

He's not even sandbagging Titania, sandbagging is denying Titania resources which she needs to do well. He's looking to see if Titania should get those resources by making sure something similar can't be done without her and thus save those resources.

Obviously the wrong way to go about it, because it creates shitstorms like the other thread, and it creates reactions like our current ones.

These shit storms are being caused by nearly everyone on this forum being as stubborn as a mule when it comes to the topic of jeigans or any other established "fact".

[Lord Raven]

The last statement isn't true in the slightest, chapter 14 gives little benefit to fliers, 16 has no benefits to fliers, 18 has minimal, 19 has minimal, 26 has minimal and 27 has none. Even in chapters which do have benefits to fliers, ballistae can still be a problem and 25 is a rout and good luck killing everyone efficiently with just 2 characters.

What the objective is is to find out if using Titania speeds up these chapters or not. If not then yes, using Titania over other characters is a bad idea, or at least a not-the-very-best scenario, if that's what you're nitpicking at.

12 and 13 gives benefit to fliers that you want to continually make stronger and stronger because there are even more chapters that are made better by fliers. There are way more chapters, but Titania becomes more or less obsolete at that point because you've probably produced Super Marcia © by that point.

The point of this run has nothing to do with that, so you bringing this up has absolutely 0 relevance.

Read other threads, he did bring this up.

What? Yes, yes he IS looking at old arguments for flaws. Said old argument being that there is enough exp to go around, he is testing this theory out for himself in an attempt to prove it false (I think that there is enough exp to go around but there is literally no gain in stopping him from trying, for either of us).

But I proved it right in my own run -_-

He's not even sandbagging Titania, sandbagging is denying Titania resources which she needs to do well. He's looking to see if Titania should get those resources by making sure something similar can't be done without her and thus save those resources.

These shit storms are being caused by nearly everyone on this forum being as stubborn as a mule when it comes to the topic of jeigans or any other established "fact".

Sandbagging, as far as I know, is pretty much beating down on something... But that's beside the point. I'm pretty sure he's trying to prove a point that was made multiple times (but no one ever went through lengths to really prove it) in a way that rubs people the wrong way. He's pretty much saying using Titania after Chapter 11 is a bad idea, possibly to prove that Marcia/Jill > Titania, when in reality theres nothing wrong with Titania after Chapter 11 >_> We'll leave this for him to clarify, but I'm not sure why you are saying everyone is being stubborn when we've backed up our points and been through these same arguments multiple times.

[Zkirsche]

12 and 13 gives benefit to fliers that you want to continually make stronger and stronger because there are even more chapters that are made better by fliers. There are way more chapters, but Titania becomes more or less obsolete at that point because you've probably produced Super Marcia © by that point.

I know that's why I didn't mention chapters 12 and 13. You said this however:

Titania doesn't really do anything once you get access to fliers.

Which I showed is false by giving examples of non-flier heavy maps which will thus have significant foot unit usage. Therefore other units do actually contribute past chapter 11, and thus there is a point to this test.

Read other threads, he did bring this up.

I don't give a shit if he brought this up in other threads, it has nothing to do with the purpose of this run.

But I proved it right in my own run -_-

Similar to what you said earlier:

one playthrough isnt sufficient enough evidence to disprove that Titania hogs EXP

The same could be said vice versa. And no, even if units are fine by being levelled up alongside Titania, they can be more than fine if they can be raised up just as fast without her, even if its just hit and crit chances increasing.

Also, why is your run more valuable than his run? Because it conforms to the long-held idealisms? Because its yours? I know I haven't been that active recently, but I never saw the poll where it was unanimously agreed that whatever Lord Raven says, goes.

I'm pretty sure he's trying to prove a point that was made multiple times (but no one ever went through lengths to really prove it)

I'm not surprised noone went to those lengths because if they do they get ostracised for it.

in a way that rubs people the wrong way.

Why does it rub people the wrong way that he is trying to prove it with practical analysis? Is there anything wrong with him testing this out for himself? Why are so many people getting worked up over someone trying to find out for himself, through practical analysis, whether Titania really is useful, instead of simply conforming to the tradition?

Just let him do it, even if nothing changes and our side is proven right, at least he figures it out and gives us more evidence for our cause.

but I'm not sure why you are saying everyone is being stubborn when we've backed up our points and been through these same arguments multiple times.

There has been little to no serious discussion about Titania being the top of the tier list in recent times, from what I can see in the FE9 tier list search for "Titania", so yes you are being stubborn and are completely conforming to an idea simply because it is like a time honoured tradition when frankly we haven't even discovered if the notion that Titania is best simply because of her earlygame matures like a fine wine or rots like a freshly picked strawberry.

Practical evidence is the best way forward for this tier list at this point as we've simply argued this game to death. Regardless of the result it will be useful to have this as a reference.

Edited July 26, 2012 by kirsche

[General Banzai]

Why are we arguing about his methods for testing his Titania hypothesis before he has even outlined exactly what they are going to be, let alone tested them?

Let him at least come out with some evidence before you dispute it.

[Loki Laufeyson]

The whole "we should worship Marcus/Seth/Titania and the ground they walk on" worship is getting out of hand. They're good, but I wish people would just tone it down. It'd be like if Smogon constantly went on and on about how SB Blaziken destroys OU and how that's awesome.

Yeah. This mindset seems to be more or less contained within this forum's community. I just had a guy on another forum today say this:

Marcus is a Jeigan and should not be used except as meat-shield.

So yeah.

I myself have moved on from "BAN THE JEIGAN" to "Use the Jeigan if one wants to minimize turns and junk." and to "I will use the Jeigan whenever i freaking feel like it."

The OP seems to be doubly concerned about BEXP gain which is strange to me. While in HM, its not exactly as plentiful as in other modes unless low turn count, i hardly feel that Titania has anything to do with it. And something about Ol' Tits' stats not measuring up to other units. Weird because the disadvantages under Oscar she might have is strength and maybe speed. If that.

[aku chi]

The OP seems to be doubly concerned about BEXP gain which is strange to me. While in HM, its not exactly as plentiful as in other modes unless low turn count, i hardly feel that Titania has anything to do with it.

On the contrary, Titania is one of the few combat units that is excellent without any Bexp. But I didn't get the impression that Aeine's two claims were related.

On another note, I don't understand this newfound desire to apply an absurdly high standard to Titania and Titania only. Titania is only the (hands down) most valuable unit in ~10 chapters. How terrible! But wait - no other unit can come close to making that claim except Reyson (who's completely absent for over half the game). (I don't intend to further derail this thread, but I welcome further discussion in the tier list thread.)

[Lord Raven]

But wait - no other unit can come close to making that claim except Reyson

stop saying things you can't back up

[bottlegnomes]

her earlygame matures like a fine wine or rots like a freshly picked strawberry.

I must say I love that analogy, especially the strawberry part.

stop saying things you can't back up

Calm down. aku's probably one of the more responsible posters about being able to back up things he says.

Edited July 27, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Lord Raven]

I've argued against him about Reyson before, I can safely say that his statements about reyson aren't very well backed up