The Art of Doubling

[darkkfan]

So the Double page under the Awakening section tells those of us who haven't yet played the game what the Double command is. But it does not explain how to use it effectively. From what I have been reading, this game is not possible on the Classic Lunatic and Lunatic+ difficulties without utilizing this command. Coming from someone who has beat FE11 H5 and mastered Fire Emblem before the inclusion of Double capabilities, I have no idea what the best ways to use the command is. I was hoping that those who have beat Lunatic and Lunatic+ difficulties could help to elucidate how to master this command to overcome the increased difficulty. This should be a place for people who have beaten the Lunatic difficulties to share tips with those of us who haven't yet attempted them or haven't yet acquired the game but are greatly anticipating it.

[NinjaMonkey]

So the Double page under the Awakening section tells those of us who haven't yet played the game what the Double command is.

I really wish that they had called it something else, as I always confuse it with the other kind of doubling (ie: When a unit has 4 or more AS more than an enemy unit, that unit gets to attack twice).

[Xeniferos]

Well, based on a few things I've gleaned from Othin and a few other users, as well as the SF page on it...

• Double Bonuses increase core stats(STR, DEF, etc.) by a set amount based on the secondary character's(Doublee?) class. Note: Add +3 for any stat they might have capped while they support a unit in double.
• Based on their support levels, double units get flat + amounts to hit, avoid, critical, and critical avoid. There are 12 "levels" of Support rank, which can bring the added bonuses for the aforementioned attributes to +20.
• The supporting character has a chance to hop in on the main character's attack with an attack of their own. This is a % chance, modified by both characters' support level, and can be further increased with the skill "Dual Attack+".
• Along with the dual attack feature, supporting units can also hop in on an incoming enemy attack to mitigate damage for the main. Activation is also dependent on support level, and can be increased further with "Dual Guard+". Note that Dual Guards always negate all damage.
• (Credit to Remnant Sage for clarifying)The supporting unit in a double will always gain EXP from an activated Dual Attack as long as the attack connects and hits for more than 0 damage.
• Given the +Stat bonuses each unit gives based on class, +SPD and +DEF seem to be the most useful on the harder difficulties to have a supporting character offer in a double. *EDIT: I say this based on feedback from Othin's extensive time playing Lunatic mode. He's claimed that in most cases the +SPD and +DEF bonuses are vital to character survival in most cases because enemies are so fast and tough.* Though I imagine +STR and +MAG are also equally useful.
• The supporting character's skills are indeed still active during double, so passive abilities like "Secluded Lady" and "(Crimson) Curse" will still take appropriate effect. This can be quite useful for still giving the main character and nearby allies a boost, even though they're in support and not actively being used! It should also be noted that support characters can activate their own offensive skills(i.e. Astra, Luna, Sol, etc.) on a successful Dual Attack proc.

Those are the main ones I can think of for now. I'll edit or add posts as I can think of more, and I'm sure some of the more experienced folk who've had a chance to play extensively (like Othin) can offer some more insight on the feature. Hope I helped!

EDIT: Thanks to Remnant sage for clarification on Dual Attack EXP.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Xjezhekiir

[Remnant Sage]

Small correction on the supporting unit's EXP gain: It doesn't matter if the enemy dies. As long as they damage the enemy, they'll gain EXP. If they hit the enemy for 0 damage, no EXP is gained.

[Xeniferos]

Small correction on the supporting unit's EXP gain: It doesn't matter if the enemy dies. As long as they damage the enemy, they'll gain EXP. If they hit the enemy for 0 damage, no EXP is gained.

Original post fix'd and updated. Thank you, Remnant!

Edited July 28, 2012 by Xjezhekiir

[darkkfan]

I really wish that they had called it something else, as I always confuse it with the other kind of doubling (ie: When a unit has 4 or more AS more than an enemy unit, that unit gets to attack twice).

I agree, it is really confusing, and then there is the Dual Attack command which I had confused with both types of Doubling but is really a separate thing.

Well, based on a few things I've gleaned from Othin and a few other users, as well as the SF page on it...

• Double Bonuses increase core stats(STR, DEF, etc.) by a set amount based on the secondary character's(Doublee?) class. Note: Add +3 for any stat they might have capped while they support a unit in double.
• Based on their support levels, double units get flat + amounts to hit, avoid, critical, and critical avoid. There are 12 "levels" of Support rank, which can bring the added bonuses for the aforementioned attributes to +20.
• The supporting character has a chance to hop in on the main character's attack with an attack of their own. This is a % chance, modified by both characters' support level, and can be further increased with the skill "Dual Attack+".
• Along with the dual attack feature, supporting units can also hop in on an incoming enemy attack to mitigate damage for the main. Activation is also dependent on support level, and can be increased further with "Dual Guard+". Note that Dual Guards always negate all damage.
• (Credit to Remnant Sage for clarifying)The supporting unit in a double will always gain EXP from an activated Dual Attack as long as the attack connects and hits for more than 0 damage.
• Given the +Stat bonuses each unit gives based on class, +SPD and +DEF seem to be the most useful on the harder difficulties to have a supporting character offer in a double. Though I imagine +STR and +MAG are also equally useful.
• The supporting character's skills are indeed still active during double, so passive abilities like "Secluded Lady" and "(Crimson) Curse" will still take appropriate effect. This can be quite useful for still giving the main character and nearby allies a boost, even though they're in support and not actively being used!

Those are the main ones I can think of for now. I'll edit or add posts as I can think of more, and I'm sure some of the more experienced folk who've had a chance to play extensively (like Othin) can offer some more insight on the feature. Hope I helped!

EDIT: Thanks to Remnant sage for clarification on Dual Attack EXP.

This is useful information, particularly the part about skills carrying over and about +SPD and +DEF being the best. According to this, classes such as Swordmaster and Great Knight have renewed value as double supporters. I don't know much about skills, but I'm sure someone else can speculate on which skills are more useful than others for support. I am also wondering if the attack skills of the doubler or supporter can activate in either Dual Attack or via Doubling (I would assume at least in Dual Attack). For instance, if Krom is carrying doubling with Swordmaster Frederick (not even sure if he can become a Swordmaster but i am too lazy to check and it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this question) and Frederick has Astra, can Krom activate Astra? Thanks for your help, this info is definitely a good start!

[Bryan]

I agree, it is really confusing, and then there is the Dual Attack command which I had confused with both types of Doubling but is really a separate thing.

This is useful information, particularly the part about skills carrying over and about +SPD and +DEF being the best. According to this, classes such as Swordmaster and Great Knight have renewed value as double supporters. I don't know much about skills, but I'm sure someone else can speculate on which skills are more useful than others for support. I am also wondering if the attack skills of the doubler or supporter can activate in either Dual Attack or via Doubling (I would assume at least in Dual Attack). For instance, if Krom is carrying doubling with Swordmaster Frederick (not even sure if he can become a Swordmaster but i am too lazy to check and it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this question) and Frederick has Astra, can Krom activate Astra? Thanks for your help, this info is definitely a good start!

Krom wouldn't be able to activate Fred's Astra.

Also, the Dual attack isn't a command. There's a percent chance when two people are standing by each other.

[Xeniferos]

Updated the original post yet again. I really should probably just post random blurbs and addendums in successively separate posts. xP Ah, well.

To clarify further on the +SPD and +DEF: It's more or less vital on Lunatic(+) simply because even just 1 point of speed can mean the difference between getting double-attacked and one-rounded. Even though Evasion is largely inconsistent and something of a moot point due to enemies with "Absolute Hit" and "Accuracy +10" skills, Speed is important for doubling and avoiding getting doubled all the same. Lack of reliable evasion make +DEF and +RES even more important because it's one of the very few surefire ways to mitigate damage on harder difficulties.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Xjezhekiir

[darkkfan]

Krom wouldn't be able to activate Fred's Astra.

Also, the Dual attack isn't a command. There's a percent chance when two people are standing by each other.

Right, I misspoke (or mistyped) I know what Dual attack is, my point is that it adds to the confusion between Doubling (as in carrying) and Doubling (as in attacking twice in a round of combat). We should really figure out an efficient way to differentiate the two meanings of "Doubling" even if IS hasn't made it easy for us.

Updated the original post yet again. I really should probably just post random blurbs and addendums in successively separate posts. xP Ah, well.

To clarify further on the +SPD and +DEF: It's more or less vital on Lunatic(+) simply because even just 1 point of speed can mean the difference between getting double-attacked and one-rounded. Even though Evasion is largely inconsistent and something of a moot point due to enemies with "Absolute Hit" and "Accuracy +10" skills, Speed is important for doubling and avoiding getting doubled all the same. Lack of reliable evasion make +DEF and +RES even more important because it's one of the very few surefire ways to mitigate damage on harder difficulties.

I assumed that's what you meant. According to the charts, Paladin, Hero, Swordmaster, and Overlord look to be the best because they give at least +2 in both SPD and DEf (with the exception of Swordmaster which gives a whopping +5 speed but no defense). A Swordmaster/Swordmaster Double should be able to double anything even on the harder difficulties (this is more of a question than a statement) and a General carrying a Swordmaster also seems quite powerful.

Edited July 28, 2012 by darkkfan

[Othin]

Fuck well-roundedness; go for specialists in the stats you need, and everything can be useful except Skl and Luck. Berserkers really stand out because the gargantuan Str and Spd bonuses can make any physical unit into a monster. Being able to give solid bonuses in two stats at once is often important, but while Spd is incredibly important because of how hard it is to double and often to avoid being doubled, I wouldn't say having or boosting Def is any more important than Str, Mag, or Res when you need them, although Mag didn't come up much because I spent most of the game with MU as my only good magic user - which frequently went very wrong; don't let that happen if you can possibly help it.

Offense is best defense; being able to score the critical extra damage to kill an enemy is incredibly important. Def and Res mainly matter when you need a specific amount of defenses to survive an extra round on the enemy phase to start cutting into enemies you need to hurt. Which is a common situation and can often let you damage enemies more than boosting offenses directly can, so again, it's really important, but I wouldn't say any of the raw offenses or raw defenses are more important than the others. More than anywhere else, it's the most important stat both to have and to boost, so focus on characters like Swordmasters that can have it or can pass it to other characters. Remember that you also have Cries to boost stats just like in Double; it's worth investing in a Falcon Knight for Speed Cry, even if you don't have her fight. Elincia has it if you get DLC, but she takes a while to be able to recruit.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Othin

[darkkfan]

Fuck well-roundedness; go for specialists in the stats you need, and everything can be useful except Skl and Luck. Berserkers really stand out because the gargantuan Str and Spd bonuses can make any physical unit into a monster. Being able to give solid bonuses in two stats at once is often important, but while Spd is incredibly important because of how hard it is to double and often to avoid being doubled, I wouldn't say having or boosting Def is any more important than Str, Mag, or Res when you need them, although Mag didn't come up much because I spent most of the game with MU as my only good magic user - which frequently went very wrong; don't let that happen if you can possibly help it.

Offense is best defense; being able to score the critical extra damage to kill an enemy is incredibly important. Def and Res mainly matter when you need a specific amount of defenses to survive an extra round on the enemy phase to start cutting into enemies you need to hurt. Which is a common situation and can often let you damage enemies more than boosting offenses directly can, so again, it's really important, but I wouldn't say any of the raw offenses or raw defenses are more important than the others. More than anywhere else, it's the most important stat both to have and to boost, so focus on characters like Swordmasters that can have it or can pass it to other characters. Remember that you also have Cries to boost stats just like in Double; it's worth investing in a Falcon Knight for Speed Cry, even if you don't have her fight. Elincia has it if you get DLC, but she takes a while to be able to recruit.

This is great advice! It makes sense that trying to specialize in MAG, STR, and DEF while adding competent SPD is most effective. So, am I right in assuming that high defense classes such as General should be paired with units that give +STR and +DEF bonuses (such as a Warrior or General) through doubling without worrying about SPD? What about classes like Swordmaster with good Speed? Would it be worth pairing a high speed unit with a(nother) Myrmidon/Swordmaster to increase its speed, or would something like a Berserker or Paladin be better for both +SPD and +STR? I know it depends on individual characters' strengths as well as the circumstances, I am just curious as to what you would suggest.

[Othin]

It really varies depending on what you need. Often, even your fastest characters won't have enough Spd to double certain enemies without a bonus. You never have enough Spd, no matter what.

For this reason, mass-stacking defenses at the expense of Spd will never work. That's just asking to be doubled, and with enemies having 60+ and sometimes even 70+ Atk by the last few chapters, no amount of defense will be enough to manage that. A General like that will be doubled by everything and be absolutely destroyed by magic users; even if he takes huge care to avoid magic, he still won't last long against physical attacks. If he's getting hit for 20 damage twice per round, he won't last longer than a Swordmaster that has just enough Def to not get OHKOed.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Othin

[Polaris]

Speed is basically the god stat then, especially with the higher doubling threshold.

SCREW BALANCE GUIZ

[darkkfan]

It really varies depending on what you need. Often, even your fastest characters won't have enough Spd to double certain enemies without a bonus. You never have enough Spd, no matter what.

For this reason, mass-stacking defenses at the expense of Spd will never work. That's just asking to be doubled, and with enemies having 60+ and sometimes even 70+ Atk by the last few chapters, no amount of defense will be enough to manage that. A General like that will be doubled by everything and be absolutely destroyed by magic users; even if he takes huge care to avoid magic, he still won't last long against physical attacks. If he's getting hit for 20 damage twice per round, he won't last longer than a Swordmaster that has just enough Def to not get OHKOed.

So when you said that you should specialize characters' strengths, you were pretty much referring to SPD?

[Othin]

Hmm. I'm not sure.

[Anouleth]

It really varies depending on what you need. Often, even your fastest characters won't have enough Spd to double certain enemies without a bonus. You never have enough Spd, no matter what.

For this reason, mass-stacking defenses at the expense of Spd will never work. That's just asking to be doubled, and with enemies having 60+ and sometimes even 70+ Atk by the last few chapters, no amount of defense will be enough to manage that. A General like that will be doubled by everything and be absolutely destroyed by magic users; even if he takes huge care to avoid magic, he still won't last long against physical attacks. If he's getting hit for 20 damage twice per round, he won't last longer than a Swordmaster that has just enough Def to not get OHKOed.

Sounds a lot like FE12 Lunatic: but you'd think that with greater potential to get bonuses from other avenues (Double, DEF+2, Rainbow Cry), you could probably get as much as 60DEF on a general.

[Othin]

Sounds a lot like FE12 Lunatic: but you'd think that with greater potential to get bonuses from other avenues (Double, DEF+2, Rainbow Cry), you could probably get as much as 60DEF on a general.

Well, let's see. The two most feasible Generals are Frederick and Callum. Frederick would have 15 base Def as a General; Callum would have 16. So to get to 40 Def unboosted, Frederick would need to gain about 45 levels with his 55% growth, while Callum would need to gain about 34 levels with his 70% growth. (Their growths are unchanged from their base classes as a General.) Frederick is not going to gain that many levels. Callum might, but he's extremely difficult to train because of his severe Spd issues. If he could get that many levels, it's not going to happen until the very end of the game, so he'll still be far from 60. By stacking Defense +2, a Double with a 30+ Def General with an A support, Defense Cry from another General, and Rainbow Cry, you could hypothetically get +20 for a total of 60, but it's really not practical to set up all that. To be honest, I'm not seeing a use for more than one General on Lunatic, let alone three, whoever they are. And Rainbow Cry is a really valuable commodity: MU's Exp gains make him/her your more valuable combat unit, leaving little time for even using the best support move in the game. Although MU's kids could be more practical alternatives.

Still, no matter what, you do all this and you get a unit who dies instantly to magic and still won't likely kill physical attackers faster than they kill him. It's just not practical.

[arvilino]

Sounds a lot like FE12 Lunatic: but you'd think that with greater potential to get bonuses from other avenues (Double, DEF+2, Rainbow Cry), you could probably get as much as 60DEF on a general.

It'd be tough. You'd need a character who'll reach that sort of defense through regular play(Frederick is the best option but his EXP gain will take a nose-dive after his first class change) and then you'd need a Great Knight(Reclassed Krom is a possibility) or General with an A or S rank support with him to double to him.

But even then Magic users are pretty common in this game and dispersed among physical enemies and have similar might.

[Psych]

So if Lunatic far outclasses your units with stats, how difficult are the enemies compared to your units on Normal

And how tedious is grinding?

For those of us who are too threatened by Lunatic....or want to grind and smash everything.

[arvilino]

So if Lunatic far outclasses your units with stats, how difficult are the enemies compared to your units on Normal

And how tedious is grinding?

For those of us who are too threatened by Lunatic....or want to grind and smash everything.

In normal you don't really need to use the double command. Your units should easily beat all the unpromoted enemies and the promoted enemies are atleast comparable(but still weaker on average) than your units will be.

Since you can skip all the enemy movements up to a unit death or level up during the enemy turn with the start button, you'd probably find grinding be the least tedious it's ever been(in comparison to FE8 or FE2). Though on Lunatic the skirmish enemies are always significantly stronger than those on your current chapter.

[Othin]

Grinding in Lunatic basically requires DLC. You're not going to be able to grind properly with either skirmishes or SpotPass. And aside from the easy and unscaled Gold and Silver and Entombed Heaven, the DLC enemies are quite strong and will cause huge problems for weak characters.

[darkkfan]

Grinding in Lunatic basically requires DLC. You're not going to be able to grind properly with either skirmishes or SpotPass.

Why is that? If the regular stages can be completed with help from the Double command, than surely the skirmishes must too, right? I'm assuming that the skirmishes are anything like in FE8 (which is probably mistaken)?

[Othin]

Why is that? If the regular stages can be completed with help from the Double command, than surely the skirmishes must too, right? I'm assuming that the skirmishes are anything like in FE8 (which is probably mistaken)?

In Normal and Hard, skirmishes have levels and stats based on the location where they appear and the strength of the enemies in the chapter at that location. In Lunatic, however, the skirmishes are determined based on your progress in the game when they appear, and they're set to be far stronger than the enemies in the current story chapter. Lunatic already pushes you up towards your limits with the story chapters as they are, so you're not going to stand a chance. The only ways to reasonably take on a skirmish without already grinding through DLC are to go after the limited number of ones that appeared a while earlier in the game, or to wait for the end of the game when the enemies have capped all their stats and you can catch up with postgame training. Both are far too limited to be feasible as main story grinding.

There are a couple of other tricks you can abuse: unlimited Exp through Everyone's Room, hiring overpowered SpotPass characters, or just buying a stockpile of Nosferatu tomes. These allow for other ways to boost your team's strength that could let you get strong enough to catch up to the skirmishes, but it's generally stupid and a pain anyway. Besides, when you can't summon more skirmishes at will outside of Normal because Scented Boxes are too expensive, so you just have to wait real-time for them to show up, who wants to rely on them anyway?

[darkkfan]

In Normal and Hard, skirmishes have levels and stats based on the location where they appear and the strength of the enemies in the chapter at that location. In Lunatic, however, the skirmishes are determined based on your progress in the game when they appear, and they're set to be far stronger than the enemies in the current story chapter. Lunatic already pushes you up towards your limits with the story chapters as they are, so you're not going to stand a chance. The only ways to reasonably take on a skirmish without already grinding through DLC are to go after the limited number of ones that appeared a while earlier in the game, or to wait for the end of the game when the enemies have capped all their stats and you can catch up with postgame training. Both are far too limited to be feasible as main story grinding.

There are a couple of other tricks you can abuse: unlimited Exp through Everyone's Room, hiring overpowered SpotPass characters, or just buying a stockpile of Nosferatu tomes. These allow for other ways to boost your team's strength that could let you get strong enough to catch up to the skirmishes, but it's generally stupid and a pain anyway. Besides, when you can't summon more skirmishes at will outside of Normal because Scented Boxes are too expensive, so you just have to wait real-time for them to show up, who wants to rely on them anyway?

Sounds like there are some promising alternatives. Can you explain how the everyone's room exp works though?

[Othin]

Everyone's Room has these random events that work like the shiny tiles: they either give a character a random bonus item, a +4 bonus to two random stats until the end of the next map, some Exp, or some WExp, or give some support points to a pair of characters. The thing is, the events are generated over time in real-time, so just by waiting long enough, you can get unlimited events without needing to progress in the game. It's obnoxiously slow at getting anything valuable, and the characters can't level up this way (they max at 99 Exp), but if you really wanted to trivialize a mode, it would work.

http://serenesforest.net/fe13/everyone.html

http://serenesforest.net/fe13/treasure.html#lost