The Art of Doubling

[nocturnal YL]

Everyone's room doesn't give WExp, although you can raise weapon ranks without entering battles with the Arms Scroll.

Now, in reply to darkkfan's reply in another thread:

Do people frequently exploit these imbalances (particularly the DLC classes and skills) on Streetpass (if anyone has yet had a successful Streetpass battle)? Besides, I can't imagine that the DLC classes would be too overpowered even for Lunatic+? And according to what Othin said in http://serenesforest...pic=34279&st=20 beating the DLC maps on Lunatic is almost as difficult than trying to level grind otherwise (if I am interpreting what you said and what he said correctly). Perhaps we should move this discussion to that thread; it may be slightly off-topic there, but this one will definitely get derailed if we continue to discuss it here. But thanks for explaining the general consensus on the DLC classes, and I eagerly await your response!

I don't know if they frequently exploit the imbalances, because I haven't played against a lot of StreetPass teams myself (not counting the automatically generated ones, which are weak). But with the teams that I did play against, the ratio of "just put 10 random units there" and "I'm sending all of my best, maxed units with Leathality and Astra and the DLC skills with the intent of killing you" are about 50:50.

In a player-vs-enemy setting with later skirmishes (after your army is all-maxed) and regular chapters, I'll imagine that the player is always at the upper hand because of doubling (and the movement of the enemies are controllable to an extent). You're overpowered compared to FE5/FE9/FE11/FE12, DLC or not.

StreetPass battles aren't difficulty-dependent if your opponents are maxing everything anyway. DLC does make units overpowered in that case. While "Attack +10" or "Resistance +10" can be countered with an appropriate double combination, having to create such double teams means you are less flexible with your own team's combination, and not to mention that you're now 3~7 teams against 10 units. You still are stronger in overall, given all the supports and dual attacks the opponents simply don't have, but now they do have better odds to kill you, especially if the battle takes place in the Prologue or Chapter 4 map.

Maybe even that's fine. It just makes things harder, not impossible. But what about the Demon Fighter skills plus Limit Breaker? That basically means Attack +20, Resistance +20, and other skills +10 (in other words, Hit+20, Avoid+20, Crit+5, Ddg+10). The enemy will also end up with a speed of up to 67 (+10 from Speed/Rainbow/Love Cries - let's assume that unit won't let something as trivial as Speed+2 to occupy a slot) while the fastest obtainable speed without DLC is 57 (+10 (4 from class, 3 from stats, 2 from support, 1 from skill) from Doubling, +8 from Speed/Rainbow Cries)... it's still not completely hopeless, but you'll have a hard time double attacking that enemy as well. And you're not going to land as much damage - the enemy will evade often, and that enemy has 10 more Def and 20 more Res than you do, not to mention the +10 attack. If the said enemy is an unarmoured infantry unit (FE7~8 says "Effective against infantries" on Rapier - that's completely false, infantry means foot soldiers), your only hope is to use a Slayer skill and pray that the enemy won't land hits on you. But if you have played the Light vs Dark DLC series, you should know that slayers don't really do much against enemies that are 10 Skl and Spd above you with weapons forged to have an absurdly high hit.

And one thing to always keep in mind: your enemy can afford to - and is supposed to - lose, while you can't lose a single unit unless you don't consider keeping the whole army alive more important than taking part in a completely optional fight.

Edited July 31, 2012 by nocturnal YL

[darkkfan]

Everyone's Room has these random events that work like the shiny tiles: they either give a character a random bonus item, a +4 bonus to two random stats until the end of the next map, some Exp, or some WExp, or give some support points to a pair of characters. The thing is, the events are generated over time in real-time, so just by waiting long enough, you can get unlimited events without needing to progress in the game. It's obnoxiously slow at getting anything valuable, and the characters can't level up this way (they max at 99 Exp), but if you really wanted to trivialize a mode, it would work.

http://serenesforest...3/everyone.html

http://serenesforest...asure.html#lost

Sounds cool. Specifically, the part about +4 to two random stats for a whole map sounds like it would be useful on Lunatic (maybe to help clear the DLC maps for grinding via skirmishes if this is viable).

Everyone's room doesn't give WExp, although you can raise weapon ranks without entering battles with the Arms Scroll.

Now, in reply to darkkfan's reply in another thread:

I don't know if they frequently exploit the imbalances, because I haven't played against a lot of StreetPass teams myself (not counting the automatically generated ones, which are weak). But with the teams that I did play against, the ratio of "just put 10 random units there" and "I'm sending all of my best, maxed units with Leathality and Astra and the DLC skills with the intent of killing you" are about 50:50.

I had thought this would have been the case, that there were few Streetpass teams that weren't random, but It is interesting that only about 50% of Streetpass players utilize the DLC features you mentioned to maximize their team. This actually dispels the feeling that DLC is "pay to win" at least for me anyway. I would imagine you will see a greater ratio of DLC teams once the game is released in the US (or even in Europe).

In a player-vs-enemy setting with later skirmishes (after your army is all-maxed) and regular chapters, I'll imagine that the player is always at the upper hand because of doubling (and the movement of the enemies are controllable to an extent). You're overpowered compared to FE5/FE9/FE11/FE12, DLC or not.

This makes sense for Hard and Normal difficulties, but I wonder how true it is on the later levels of Lunatic; that is if Lunatic enemies have any special skills or stats to make it challenging even for a maxed army with effective doubling and DLC. It is an interesting theory that the player has the upper hand regardless of DLC, especially considering the stat disadvantage (but of course you stated that you were assuming your characters' stats were maxed).

StreetPass battles aren't difficulty-dependent if your opponents are maxing everything anyway. DLC does make units overpowered in that case. While "Attack +10" or "Resistance +10" can be countered with an appropriate double combination, having to create such double teams means you are less flexible with your own team's combination, and not to mention that you're now 3~7 teams against 10 units. You still are stronger in overall, given all the supports and dual attacks the opponents simply don't have, but now they do have better odds to kill you, especially if the battle takes place in the Prologue or Chapter 4 map.

A very good point, I hadn't thought of that.

Maybe even that's fine. It just makes things harder, not impossible. But what about the Demon Fighter skills plus Limit Breaker? That basically means Attack +20, Resistance +20, and other skills +10 (in other words, Hit+20, Avoid+20, Crit+5, Ddg+10). The enemy will also end up with a speed of up to 67 (+10 from Speed/Rainbow/Love Cries - let's assume that unit won't let something as trivial as Speed+2 to occupy a slot) while the fastest obtainable speed without DLC is 57 (+10 (4 from class, 3 from stats, 2 from support, 1 from skill) from Doubling, +8 from Speed/Rainbow Cries)... it's still not completely hopeless, but you'll have a hard time double attacking that enemy as well. And you're not going to land as much damage - the enemy will evade often, and that enemy has 10 more Def and 20 more Res than you do, not to mention the +10 attack. If the said enemy is an unarmoured infantry unit (FE7~8 says "Effective against infantries" on Rapier - that's completely false, infantry means foot soldiers), your only hope is to use a Slayer skill and pray that the enemy won't land hits on you. But if you have played the Light vs Dark DLC series, you should know that slayers don't really do much against enemies that are 10 Skl and Spd above you with weapons forged to have an absurdly high hit.

Ok, nice breakdown. Basically (and correct me if I'm wrong) that DLC counteracts the effects of doubling in player vs. player, but for single player, it is Doubling, not DLC, that makes the game possible on the harder levels.

And one thing to always keep in mind: your enemy can afford to - and is supposed to - lose, while you can't lose a single unit unless you don't consider keeping the whole army alive more important than taking part in a completely optional fight.

Wait, you're talking about the DLC maps, right? Not the Streetpass battles, or do you not recover units lost in those, either?

[nocturnal YL]

I had thought this would have been the case, that there were few Streetpass teams that weren't random, but It is interesting that only about 50% of Streetpass players utilize the DLC features you mentioned to maximize their team. This actually dispels the feeling that DLC is "pay to win" at least for me anyway. I would imagine you will see a greater ratio of DLC teams once the game is released in the US (or even in Europe).

It depends on where you're getting the teams from. I live in Hong Kong, and non-casual gamers here are basically cut in halves between those who take winning too seriously and those who don't. Certain groups in Taiwan would have StreetPass teams that are themed after something (like an anime), and some would take great care in not to build overly powerful groups that the opponents have no chance to win against.

I can imagine things would go much more aggressive in the West. If anything, StreetPass battles are completely optional, and the main quest is perfectly beatable without any DLC - although it will make the task easier. If the first Spirit Talisman is made free in the West like Japan did, I strongly recommend players to get it as it should make Lunatic grinding much easier.

This makes sense for Hard and Normal difficulties, but I wonder how true it is on the later levels of Lunatic; that is if Lunatic enemies have any special skills or stats to make it challenging even for a maxed army with effective doubling and DLC. It is an interesting theory that the player has the upper hand regardless of DLC, especially considering the stat disadvantage (but of course you stated that you were assuming your characters' stats were maxed).

I can't really say for sure in case of Lunatic (since I haven't played that yet - still in the progress of collecting supports). Lunatic enemies have Hit+10 and later, Hit+20, and Lunatic+ have Absolute Hit, Luna+, Counter, Pass, Great Shield+ and Holy Shield+ distributed randomly. It is unlikely to see, say, everyone in Lunatic+ having Absolute Hit (reset if you do), and the other skills can be worked around (don't attack close-range with Counter enemies and use Dual Attack for enemies with the Shields).

EDIT - Regarding Othin's comment: he's right; I forgot to count in the fact that Lunatic/Lunatic+ enemies carry weapons modified to have absurdly high hits and carry Hit+10/+20 anyway that Absolute Hit isn't going to make things much worse.

A very good point, I hadn't thought of that.

Thanks.

Ok, nice breakdown. Basically (and correct me if I'm wrong) that DLC counteracts the effects of doubling in player vs. player, but for single player, it is Doubling, not DLC, that makes the game possible on the harder levels.

If the opposing StreetPass team has DLC (and especially the final Light vs Dark), your doubling will, at best, make you not get double attacked by the opponent. If you couple that with Speed and Rainbow Cries, you may have a chance to double attack back - provided the opponent didn't do the same.

As far as single player is concerned, you absolutely should double, and preferrably have a Cry specialist as well (Rainbow, Skill, Speed and Luck recommended). Unlike the previous games, FE13 isn't going to hold back the enemies' Speed to make sure you can double attack - you have to do that part of preparation yourself.

And no, DLC is not a must in terms of making the main quest more doable. It probably won't too; the craziest DLC bonus, Limit Breaker, cannot be obtained until you beat the final Light vs Dark, which is in itself the most difficult stage in the game, DLC or not. If you can beat that stage, the main quest isn't a problem to you anyway. The two DLC chapters that award classes, in Lunatic, would be pretty difficult too. The main point in those DLC bonuses, as someone I know in a Taiwanese gaming forum puts it, is effectively there so that you can scare other players away (and eyecandy too).

Wait, you're talking about the DLC maps, right? Not the Streetpass battles, or do you not recover units lost in those, either?

Units lost are lost forever in all battles, "friendly" or not. The only exception is Dual Tag, which is a local multiplayer mode and doesn't involve a battle map.

Edited July 31, 2012 by nocturnal YL

[Othin]

You can work around Absolute Hit. In fact, it's the easiest one to work around: aside from Barbarians and Berserkers vs. sword users, enemies aren't ever going to be missing anyway. If you see all the enemies with Absolute Hit, throw a party and make sure not to screw up what's probably your best chance at victory. The real problems are Counter, Great Shield+, and Holy Shield+ - especially if the enemy has both Counter and Holy Shield+.

And no, never use Skill Cry or Luck Cry if you have anything else you could possibly be doing.

[nocturnal YL]

The real problems are Counter, Great Shield+, and Holy Shield+ - especially if the enemy has both Counter and Holy Shield+.

I can see how Counter can wreck havoc, especially when it's present on multiple enemies. As for enemies with both Counter and Holy Shield+, am I right to say they can be solved with a ranged sword/lance/axe attack? Depending on which defensive stat they're worse at, a Thunder Sword (never liked the Levin Sword name) or a Spear/Short Axe would do the job?

And no, never use Skill Cry or Luck Cry if you have anything else you could possibly be doing.

Hmm. I took this idea from the Taiwanese forum I mentioned. Personally, I'd say it at least makes some sense if the user really doesn't have anything better to do (an imported MU who doesn't even need to stay alive, for example).

[Othin]

Ranged triangle weapons are pretty much the only solutions, yeah. You have to get rid of them fast, because if they have melee, you can't so much as equip a range 1 weapon around them without risking massive damage from your own attacks, but bows and magic won't do much to them, either. They're huge problems.

The thing about the Cry skills is, you're not going to see that many skills showing up at random, since they're all in different classes. If you do the reclassing necessary to learn those Cry skills, it's going to be purposeful, and Skill and Luck Cry aren't ones you're going to want to bother going for unless you're just trying to gobble up everything.

[The Awesomest]

I really wish that they had called it something else, as I always confuse it with the other kind of doubling (ie: When a unit has 4 or more AS more than an enemy unit, that unit gets to attack twice).

Well, we don't know what either of the English versions call it yet, do we? There's still a chance!

[darkkfan]

Wow, thanks a lot to Othin and nocturnal YL, who have certainly contributed to my understanding of the game and added so many helpful tips I don't even know where to begin replying to them. No need to stop here (for everyone), please continue sharing your thoughts and advice! In particular, I wonder whether it is common (or effective) for one or two units in good classes (but possibly with bad stats, maybe prepromotes) to be trained and brought into battle solely for the value they offer as Doublers.

[Othin]

In particular, I wonder whether it is common (or effective) for one or two units in good classes (but possibly with bad stats, maybe prepromotes) to be trained and brought into battle solely for the value they offer as Doublers.

Extremely. In Lunatic, in particular, it's hard for many units to keep up combat-wise, so others get relegated to various support roles, such as staffs, Cries, and Double. You need good Double bonuses, but you won't have enough competent fighters to spare them for Double when you don't need to, so others make good substitutes.

[arvilino]

Wow, thanks a lot to Othin and nocturnal YL, who have certainly contributed to my understanding of the game and added so many helpful tips I don't even know where to begin replying to them. No need to stop here (for everyone), please continue sharing your thoughts and advice! In particular, I wonder whether it is common (or effective) for one or two units in good classes (but possibly with bad stats, maybe prepromotes) to be trained and brought into battle solely for the value they offer as Doublers.

I find the best candidates soley for double are units like Tiamo and Serge. Tiamo(as a Falcoknight, on Lunatic and Lunatic+ Black Peg isn't worth it in my opinion) for example has Staves(which helps her reach level 5 for Speed Cry), Speed Cry, Flying utility with double, and Falcoknights provide a pretty good speed bonus from the double command.

While Serge doesn't have any of the cries, the Dracomaster class has both flying utility with both high STR and DEF boosts(which only Great Knights, Warriors and Generals give) is also useful.

The pre-promotes are actually the most likely candidates to make up your main combat units for the most part of the game. You'll find early one you'll be using a lot of the early unpromoted units soley for the double bonuses, as very few of them will get the EXP to be of use in the long run.

Edited August 2, 2012 by arvilino

[Othin]

I personally found Tiamo far more valuable staying separate almost all the time to spam Speed Cry and help out occasionally with Rescue, although Elincia replaced her eventually. I also used Serge as a Griffin Knight to help with ferrying and occasionally jump on characters for a Move bonus. Frederick helped out in Double as a Dragonmaster once he fell behind in regular combat, although I ended up dropping him for the last couple of chapters. I also used various DLC units I picked up for Double support, specifically Leaf, Alm, Celice, and Eltshan: they all joined strong enough to help with that, but by the time I could beat their chapters, they weren't holding up well in combat. Although their maps get huge Lunatic bonuses, the characters themselves don't upon joining. Although Leaf and Celice had their own uses at times with staffs and Lightning Speed, respectively, and I ended up dropping the other two at the end. Flavia also ended up taking a mostly support role at the end; she couldn't hold up in combat as well as Basilio, but she gave better bonuses, and he needed those bonuses.

But otherwise, yeah. Prepromotes you get in the main story become your main stars throughout the game, like Frederick, Libera, and Sairi. Other characters just have a hard time keeping up. But then, if you try hard enough and are willing to work hard, it seems like it can work out. If I can train Viole just fine in Lunatic+, I'm sure other characters can work out in Lunatic. Although FE13 Lunatic+ is probably the one mode in the series where Archer is a better class than Cavalier; as tricky as he is to use sometimes, I'm not training him for laughs.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Othin

[darkkfan]

Extremely. In Lunatic, in particular, it's hard for many units to keep up combat-wise, so others get relegated to various support roles, such as staffs, Cries, and Double. You need good Double bonuses, but you won't have enough competent fighters to spare them for Double when you don't need to, so others make good substitutes.

This isn't surprising. I'm just glad I thought of it myself before someone else mentioned it

I find the best candidates soley for double are units like Tiamo and Serge. Tiamo(as a Falcoknight, on Lunatic and Lunatic+ Black Peg isn't worth it in my opinion) for example has Staves(which helps her reach level 5 for Speed Cry), Speed Cry, Flying utility with double, and Falcoknights provide a pretty good speed bonus from the double command.

Why would you say Black Peg isn't worth it? I'm not arguing with you, I am just disappointed because it looked to be one of my favorite classes.

While Serge doesn't have any of the cries, the Dracomaster class has both flying utility with both high STR and DEF boosts(which only Great Knights, Warriors and Generals give) is also useful.

The pre-promotes are actually the most likely candidates to make up your main combat units for the most part of the game. You'll find early one you'll be using a lot of the early unpromoted units soley for the double bonuses, as very few of them will get the EXP to be of use in the long run.

Hmm, I read something similar in http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34377 , it seems that this game has broken the well-established trend of pre-promotes being far outclassed by non-pre-promoted units. Are they still outclassed but is using pre-promotes the only viable option on Lunatic and Lunatic+? If using regular (non-pre-promoted) units were viable, I would think that leveling them up would make the mid and late game much easier than for someone who has used all prepromotes the entire game, but I'm just speculating.

[Othin]

Falcoknights have staffs and Speed Cry. Dark Pegasi really have nothing that will be relevant in Lunatic. Certainly not their pitiful tome rank that they'll never raise.

And no, no such trend exists. Prepromotes are great, solid units, as they've pretty much always been throughout the series.

[darkkfan]

Falcoknights have staffs and Speed Cry. Dark Pegasi really have nothing that will be relevant in Lunatic. Certainly not their pitiful tome rank that they'll never raise.

I can understand that, in Lunatic there is enough of a stat imbalance without having to worry about splitting a strength stat between strength and magic. Seems like the addition of staves for Falcoknights comes in handy on these harder difficulties.

And no, no such trend exists. Prepromotes are great, solid units, as they've pretty much always been throughout the series.

Well, I have no desire to argue that here, but I disagree completely (at least about the other games, I'm not qualified to talk about this one). Of course, I am talking purely in terms of max stats. In other games, using completely non-pre-promoted units was viable from the start and resulted in better characters with stronger stats. Period. If you disagree with that, look at the average stats page for pretty much any fire emblem game from 6-11 (those are the only ones I've played so they are the only ones I can be sure of). I'm asking if the trend of non-pre-promotes having better potential stats still exists, and you can't possibly claim that that never existed. However, as I said earlier, the only reason why this wouldn't be the case (aside from giving pre-promotes better growths and bases, but mostly growths) would be if it were impossible to use solely non-pre-promotes on the higher difficulties (because of lower bases). That's all I'm asking, and I'm sorry if I come across as hostile, but I don't want you (or anyone else) to think that because I don't know much about this game (because I haven't yet played it) that I don't know what I'm saying about the other games.

Edited August 2, 2012 by darkkfan

[Othin]

I can claim it, because it's true. Performance comparisons at equal levels don't matter when they won't be at equal levels. Pre-promoted units generally start with a substantial lead, and many of them keep it, at least for long enough to attain notable value overall.

I won't say you know nothing, but if you're making such broad and wrong generalizations, you don't know anywhere near as much as you think you do. It's a common pattern: an FE player gets a bit of knowledge and starts drawing conclusions from it, usually including that very conclusion, when in fact there's far more to consider in each individual case.

This isn't the place for this, so I won't discuss it farther here. All I'll say is, most FE fans temporarily end up with the views you're going through, then learn better by paying attention. I suggest you do the same.

[BBM]

Well, as for pre-promotes being bad in other games, while other early-joining character might end up with higher stats than them, the pre-promotes don't need training, and don't need to be given EXP to be functional. Plus, while their stats are not as high, in many of the games, they're still good enough. Not ALL pre-promotes are good, but there are always ones that are. Marcus, Pent, Seth, Duessel, Titania... The list is fairly long.

[Lakmé]

Does anyone know the Double bonus given by the Dancer class ? (I can't see it in the Awakening section)

[arvilino]

Does anyone know the Double bonus given by the Dancer class ? (I can't see it in the Awakening section)

3 speed, 3 luck, same as the Lord Class.

[darkkfan]

I can claim it, because it's true. Performance comparisons at equal levels don't matter when they won't be at equal levels. Pre-promoted units generally start with a substantial lead, and many of them keep it, at least for long enough to attain notable value overall.

I won't say you know nothing, but if you're making such broad and wrong generalizations, you don't know anywhere near as much as you think you do. It's a common pattern: an FE player gets a bit of knowledge and starts drawing conclusions from it, usually including that very conclusion, when in fact there's far more to consider in each individual case.

This isn't the place for this, so I won't discuss it farther here. All I'll say is, most FE fans temporarily end up with the views you're going through, then learn better by paying attention. I suggest you do the same.

I know my playing style differs from most people, and it usually consists of training the units who have the best average stats by any means necessary, and in all of the other games this is possible and results in units with higher average stats (sure there are some exceptions like Seth, but even he had some stat disadvantages to someone like Cormag). I'm not talking about value, because I recognize that I have a somewhat skewed concept of it, and I'm sure that when you consider the fact that prepromotes are stronger for the first 10 chapters they have more "value" perse, but I'd still rather train a bunch of characters who are initially weak but end up with the best possible stats when this is manageable, of course, I was even able to apply this strategy on H5 of Fe11, so I can't imagine it would be impossible here, but if you say that the game cannot be beaten on Lunatic without using mainly prepromotes I will take your word for it. But, I have no desire to sit around debating a subjective notion of "value." The only generalization I was making was that in games 6-11, characters who do not start out promoted generally have the best average stats. That's all I'm saying, do you disagree with that statement?

Well, as for pre-promotes being bad in other games, while other early-joining character might end up with higher stats than them, the pre-promotes don't need training, and don't need to be given EXP to be functional. Plus, while their stats are not as high, in many of the games, they're still good enough. Not ALL pre-promotes are good, but there are always ones that are. Marcus, Pent, Seth, Duessel, Titania... The list is fairly long.

Like I said, I acknowledge that I have a different definition of "good" than most people. But we weren't talking about something subjective as "good", we were discussing in terms of purely statistical potential. At least that's what I was talking about, I apologize if I should have been clearer and was misinterpreted.

Edited August 3, 2012 by darkkfan

[arvilino]

I know my playing style differs from most people, and it usually consists of training the units who have the best average stats by any means necessary, and in all of the other games this is possible and results in units with higher average stats (sure there are some exceptions like Seth, but even he had some stat disadvantages to someone like Cormag). I'm not talking about value, because I recognize that I have a somewhat skewed concept of it, and I'm sure that when you consider the fact that prepromotes are stronger for the first 10 chapters they have more "value" perse, but I'd still rather train a bunch of characters who are initially weak but end up with the best possible stats when this is manageable, of course, I was even able to apply this strategy on H5 of Fe11, so I can't imagine it would be impossible here, but if you say that the game cannot be beaten on Lunatic without using mainly prepromotes I will take your word for it. But, I have no desire to sit around debating a subjective notion of "value." The only generalization I was making was that in games 6-11, characters who do not start out promoted generally have the best average stats. That's all I'm saying, do you disagree with that statement?

Think of it as if in your FE11 H5 run and you used a team of Marth,Cain then Matthis, Vyland, Roshe, Gordin, Caeser, Rickard and Radd lets say excluding Marth and Cain the rest suddenly the best averages(by 1 point) but the same bases. In FE11 the units with the best averages are units like Abel,Cain,Barst,Shiida which are already the best units you have when you get them.

But in FE13 Lunatic the vast majority of the unpromoted units, especially the ones from the first few chapters don't have above average bases.

[darkkfan]

Think of it as if in your FE11 H5 run and you used a team of Marth,Cain then Matthis, Vyland, Roshe, Gordin, Caeser, Rickard and Radd lets say excluding Marth and Cain the rest suddenly the best averages(by 1 point) but the same bases. In FE11 the units with the best averages are units like Abel,Cain,Barst,Shiida which are already the best units you have when you get them.

But in FE13 Lunatic the vast majority of the unpromoted units, especially the ones from the first few chapters don't have above average bases.

Ok, I understand, but don't they have above average growths? I'm a little bit confused about what you are saying about FE11, are you saying Vyland has good growths? Also, I'd hardly call Caeda one of the best units when you get her.

[arvilino]

Ok, I understand, but don't they have above average growths? I'm a little bit confused about what you are saying about FE11, are you saying Vyland has good growths? Also, I'd hardly call Caeda one of the best units when you get her.

The way I'm putting it is that using a team involving alot of FE13's unpromoted characters is alot like using Vyland if hypothetically he had very slightly better growths and averages than Kain or Abel, using a unit that perform very poorly for quite a while and at the end only end up a few points better than the previous lot. Or more bluntly filling your teams with Ests.

[darkkfan]

Well, as for pre-promotes being bad in other games, while other early-joining character might end up with higher stats than them, the pre-promotes don't need training, and don't need to be given EXP to be functional. Plus, while their stats are not as high, in many of the games, they're still good enough. Not ALL pre-promotes are good, but there are always ones that are. Marcus, Pent, Seth, Duessel, Titania... The list is fairly long.

Thanks for your input. Like I said above, while we weren't arguing about the "bad" piece, the only thing that I was saying was that non-prepromotes did end up with higher stats in other games.

Apparently others (who I won't mention by name) claim that this is not the case.

The way I'm putting it is that using a team involving alot of FE13's unpromoted characters is alot like using Vyland if hypothetically he had very slightly better growths and averages than Kain or Abel, using a unit that perform very poorly for quite a while and at the end only end up a few points better than the previous lot. Or more bluntly filling your teams with Ests.

I understand the Est analogy, because that is often exactly what I am doing in these games: filling my team with Ests. But Est still ends up much better than other units, if not significantly better than Catria. Besides, at least in other games, using non-prepromoted units and using Ests were to completely different things. But you have clarified that the Lunatic levels of Fe13 make all non-prepromotes seem like Ests, breaking the established trend (which Othin will probably claim doesn't exist). All the same, I'm not sure that using Vyland is a good comparison, since he is quite frankly a crappy unit with regards to both bases and growths, and I was asking about units with good growths and low starting levels (especially those with good availability).

On another note, does the addition of the ability to shift prepromotes back to their non-promoted classes counterbalance the good growths and more levels gained by non-prepromoted units? It seems to me like this is the only possible way that prepromotes would have competitive endgame stats and the only way that they could be head and shoulders above all other units for the entire game.

Again, I thank you for explaining this patiently, clearly, and civilly.

Edited August 20, 2012 by darkkfan

[Just call me AL]

You're confusing the word "better" with the word "stronger" in this case. "Ending up stronger" isn't gonna mean much anyways if other units can perform their duties just fine before that one unit that "ends up stronger" joins. And once that unit that "ends up stronger" is trained up to par with the rest of the group, the pure statistical value that the unit that "ends up stronger" has in comparison to other units is typically merely marginal at best. (Cases in point: Your comparison between Catria and Est. And there's also the thing with Pent and Nino in FE7.) As such, units that "end up stronger" aren't seen as better as other units. Regardless of whether there's any prepromoted unit in your group at the time or not.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Little Al