Dark Sage Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) So a few months back, I made an H2 tier list. The list unfortunately was terrible and not very well run and discussion died very quickly. After some more in-depth experience with H2, I realized that the tier list pretty much needed a complete overhaul, so I did so. Rules: -If you are to rank a unit, we are assuming they will be deployed. I can't believe I have to actually say this, but this is to prevent the sandbagging of units because they take away a deployment slot from another unit. -Male Reclass Limits are unlocked -No Arena Abuse or RNG abuse assumed -No Rainbow Potion, but the Bond and Maturity Drops are allowed -No Lunatic Mode Stat Boosters -All Gaidens assumed -The tier player is not perfect, but assuming we're doing idiotic stuff like letting Yubello solo a bunch of Wyverns or assuming our healers are getting attacked is a no no. -While this list is measuring who contributes best to an efficient playthrough, we're not assuming we're going for the absolute minimum turn counts. -All characters are assumed to be recruited unless they're in Bottom tier -Prologue Utility is assumed with units. Which is why Est is in Low tier instead of in Bottom for example. -Clock feature and the potions gained from support conversations do not exist. -Recruitment costs are not assumed -Warp is not used Top Malliesia Male Physical MU Feena Female Physical MU Paola High Catria Sheeda Female Mage MU Male Mage MU Sirius Draug Luke Yumina Xane Cecil Rody Etzel Julian Rickard Upper Mid Marth Minerva Ryan Arran Ogma Wendell Cain Merric Barst Mid Frey Navarre Linde Gordin Katarina Darros George Leiden Belf Wrys Roger Lower Mid Ellerean Malice Nagi Dice Chiki Low Athena Warren Cord Jake Michalis Frost Est Bottom Matthis Bord Caesar Samto Norne Horace Robert Radd Yubello Sheema Macellan Abel Samson Astram Beck Thomas Sedgar Wolf Ymir Midia Roshe Vyland Bantu Major changes made from the last list: -Merged all the physical MUs into Male Physical and Female Physical and kept the Mage MUs seperate -Sirius dropped down to high -Cecil and Rody raised way into high just a little below Luke. Marth and Arran were dropped into Mid. High is mainly composed of utility units, powerful and relatively early joining combatants, and Xane. -Upper Mid got greatly cut down, with many units going into Mid. Ellerean in particular dropped down to Lower Mid. Some possible discussions: -Should Arran stay in Upper Mid -Should Sirius go back to Top -Ellerean to Mid Argue away Edited November 2, 2012 by Tyrant Sage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) this should really just be the same exact thing as the H3 tier list. H2 enemies are no walk in the park and generally trail their H3 counterparts by only 1-2 points each in str/skl/spd. free silvers units there are equally free silvers units here. (for that matter, catria should not be in the same tier as palla. palla is actually almost as good as MU for when they both exist.) Edited November 1, 2012 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) This is true, but there are some important differences between Lunatic and Maniac enemies: 1. The enemies stick to Steel weapons until like, Chapter 9-10 2. Enemies don't use forges until Chapter 15 and even then its only on Levin Swords, Killer weapons, and effective weaponry (Ridersbanes, etc.) 3. There are a few enemies in Lunatic that do not exist in Maniac, such as the Dracoknight reinforcements in Chapter 18 or the Sniper in Chapter 5. 4. The enemy AI in some places is slightly different. This generally means for the most part that it is easier for units such as Cecil and Draug to escape their durability problems. It also allows units such as Luke to be like, 3-4HKOd by enemies instead of consistently 2HKO'd. For the most part while the enemy differences are subtle, they're different enough to make more units more viable and even already viable units see some key changes in their performance. Edited November 1, 2012 by Tyrant Sage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) none of those are really important when the three biggest determinants of a unit's place on the tier list are speed, weapon ranks, and availability. none of those change from H3 to H2. granted, you have an easier time up until chapter 10x because enemies use weaker weapons. but then you go into dragon land where the weapons were never forged anyway and they hurt almost just as much. after chapter 14 enemies start having weapons that are pretty good. regardless the point is that very few, if any, characters get better relative to other characters. durable characters get more durable (but there aren't always circumstances where being 4HKO'd is better than being 3HKO'd). frail characters get more durable, but they still can't take x hits over y turns with z healing when compared to durable characters. characters who had spd problems still have spd problems - you can't convince me that minerva or sirius are significantly better on H2 than they are on H3 because they still suck near the end of the game. the net difference is a wash. the only major difference now is that some characters are slightly more usable, but H2 is still a mode where you wonder why you'd ever use characters that are not MU, palla, catria, caeda, and an altean cav. Edited November 1, 2012 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Bows and magic aren't as good for killing wyverns because they (along with all the other dragons save Earth Dragons) only have 1 range in H2. That's the most notable difference I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 magic is equally good at killing wyverns on H2... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 magic is equally good at killing wyverns on H2... Well yes, but it's a lot easier to charge in with Dracoknights and KO at one range, so by comparison it's a less useful skill than in H3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 well let me put it this way in chapter 11, you're charging etzel to the gate no matter what in the literally 3 other chapters with wyverns, who cares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) I disagree with a few things. Draug over Luke. I just can't see it. Catria in the same tier as Palla. Like Dondon said, Palla is comparable to My Unit. She's just that good. Arran over Ryan and Minerva. No long term and like 5 chapters of shortterm vs Prologue utility + insane availability and Mrs. "I have good bases and I fly with A axe rank at base + Dragonpikes too". I think the latter 2 win. I also propose Xane over Yumina. He can be ANY unit. Even another one of your again users or your best combat unit. Sure, he takes a turn, but that has never been an issue for me. Yumina is just another Malliesia with less levels under her belt (and no Hammerine) I personally think Caeda>Magic My Unit. Simply because she's one of, if not the best Prologue unit. Plus, her Wing spear is very useful in Ch5, 6, 8, 15, 18 and 19. For the Dragon Valley, she can just use Dragonpikes. Mage My Unit has durability issues and just looks redundant as a healbot to me with malliesia around. For a second, I was going to ask why Cain was higher than Frey...but then I remembered Prologue utility so nvm. Things I applaud you for on this list: 1. Caeda over Sirius. 2. Tiering all the units. Edited November 1, 2012 by PKL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) I don't think the difference between Male and Female Physical MU is so great that Feena should be between them, particularly since paladins/dracoknights are more appealing on H2 than H3 (their Spd cap is less crippling). Edited November 1, 2012 by -Cynthia- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 Draug over Luke. I just can't see it. Draug's main advantages are that a)he needs no investment in the prologue to be good (read compete with another Altean Cav/Ryan/Sheeda/MU for exp), and b)his speed is better. I will admit that the first advantage is minor at best but the second one really is noteworthy because Draug can be reclassed to Pirate and have a pretty good performance, particularly in the earlygame. This is particularly relevant because he's not OHKO'd by enemy axe users or Dracos like on Lunatic. His offense is pretty similar to Pirate MU's, which is relevant if Fighter MU is not being used. Catria in the same tier as Palla. Like Dondon said, Palla is comparable to My Unit. She's just that good. Done, she'll be moved to top of High Arran over Ryan and Minerva. No long term and like 5 chapters of shortterm vs Prologue utility + insane availability and Mrs. "I have good bases and I fly with A axe rank at base + Dragonpikes too". I think the latter 2 win. Done I also propose Xane over Yumina. He can be ANY unit. Even another one of your again users or your best combat unit. Sure, he takes a turn, but that has never been an issue for me. Yumina is just another Malliesia with less levels under her belt (and no Hammerine) Yumina does have the important advantage of like a 10 chapter avaliability lead over Xane and healing is very useful on this mode. Its true that she is basically Malliesia without the Hammerne, but that's still useful. Plus she has her own advantage over Malliesia (higher speed which admittedly won't come into play until Gharnef). I personally think Caeda>Magic My Unit. Simply because she's one of, if not the best Prologue unit. Plus, her Wing spear is very useful in Ch5, 6, 8, 15, 18 and 19. For the Dragon Valley, she can just use Dragonpikes. Mage My Unit has durability issues and just looks redundant as a healbot to me with malliesia around. Done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komeiji Koishi Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Mage MUs > Sirius? I thought Sirius was a really good unit in this game (and FE3). Is it because of changeable parameters for Mage MUs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) Sirius is great, but he has serious issues holding him back in H2 and H3. One could probably make a convincing argument Sirius>Mage MUs though Edited November 2, 2012 by Tyrant Sage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 i don't agree with draug > luke either. draug sucks (well, okay, he doesn't suck, but he's not that good). his offensive and defensive growths are unspectacular and he only does well in spd. but he doesn't even do that well in spd because units like catria and caeda have way higher spd growth and palla has a way higher spd base. other problem is that draug is primarily a lance user when you have at least 3 better lance users. that might actually be an important consideration when you run out of dragonpikes to pass around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Why Wrys below Katarina? He has almost the entire game to accrue positive utility, and even when Katarina appears she's not that much better than him. Dolph isn't on the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatgamecat Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 I haven't played H2, but this list seems fairly accurate given the conditions. I'm not exactly sure why you have Catria in high and not top. Other than that good list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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