Why do female characters get the most hate during shipping arguments?

[FrostyFireMage]

I guess it's because most dedicated shippers are horny girls who worship the male characters and demand they deserve women of the highest quality (i.e the female character most like themselves).

Edited January 20, 2013 by Frosty Fire Mage

[Gone2Ground]

Or maybe it's cause all the male fans have no life and imprint themselves on existing male characters and look for waifu and attack those who not meet criteria?

Yay self deprecation humor!

[Thor Odinson]

Because it gets in the way of slash or something like that. I've seen a much bigger fanbase for slash than for het pairings in many fandoms I've encountered.

IMO hating a character purely because they get in the way of your pairing of choice is pretty unreasonable, though, but some people are unreasonable.

[shadowofchaos]

All of you who don't pair Eliwood with Ninian deserve to die.

XD

Or maybe it's cause all the male fans have no life and imprint themselves on existing male characters and look for waifu and attack those who not meet criteria?

Yay self deprecation humor!

This made me laugh the most.

IMO hating a character purely because they get in the way of your pairing of choice is pretty unreasonable, though, but some people are unreasonable.

Aaaanyways, there's this.

It's almost like the "middle of the road" approach causes the haters to say "you're not a true fan!"

This summarizes it nicely.

Edited January 20, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[FrostyFireMage]

So, in short, male shippers hate female characters for not being waifu material and female shippers hate female characters for daring to fraternize with Mr. Bishie and for getting in the way of their naughty slash pairings.

Man, it's no wonder female characters are subjected to such tough scrutiny.

[Original Alear]

All of you who don't pair Eliwood with Ninian deserve to die.

I'm still pissed off I can't kill off Ninian permanently in the process of beating FE7. It's not actually that I dislike her, but once someone dies, I pretty much buy they should stay dead, and their 2nd death should come pretty rapidly after the first. I don't consider her going off with Nils through the portal, or her presumably dying before FE6 begins, to really fulfill that. Even a tragic death shortly after Roy's birth is just TOO LONG

[opinion]

[DaftPunkTooLong.wmv]

[shadowofchaos]

I'm still pissed off I can't kill off Ninian permanently in the process of beating FE7. It's not actually that I dislike her, but once someone dies, I pretty much buy they should stay dead, and their 2nd death should come pretty rapidly after the first.

Tell that to FE13. Where most of the females are "plot unkillable". You'll never be able to use them again on Classic mode, but for certain purposes story-wise, they're unkillable.

[Eberict]

Tell that to FE13. Where most of the females are "plot unkillable". You'll never be able to use them again on Classic mode, but for certain purposes story-wise, they're unkillable.

I was wondering about that, given that some of them would still have to appear in the cutscenes. Immortal waifus, etc.

On topic, I noticed a related phenomenon when teaching the Margaret Atwood novel The Handmaid's Tale. I asked the class to analyze a portion of the book in which the titular handmaid, Offred, was paraded around as a trophy at a fancy dinner by her male owner, the Commander. During event, the Commander tells Offred how necessary it is to keep women in servitude because of their wild natures and whimsical ways--essentially selling a paradigm by which the men are owning the women and using them as breeding cattle for their own good. I expected my girls to pick up on this immediately and write brilliantly against it, but was surprised when I received the assignment back: it was the boys who had noticed the injustice and who were critiquing the Commander's argument the way I expected the girls to. What did my girls do instead? Most of them wrote about how Offred was "being moody" and should show more appreciation because "the Commander had taken her out to a nice dinner."

It was honestly appalling! However, it taught me something important about just how systemic that specific gender issue is; in a big way, when I see a more female-oriented part of the internet (tumblr comes to mind) spewing hatred for female characters during shipping wars or the vitriol of the week, I attribute it to that deeply burrowed root which leads us, societally and in a variety of scenarios, to be far harsher in judging the female than the male.

[Thor Odinson]

That is an excellent point there. On a slightly related note, internalised misogyny is a big problem and I see a lot of women putting other women down because "being a woman is a 'bad' and therefore I'm 'different' and thus 'better' and I'm gonna judge the hell out of other women" or something along the lines of that and it's a very problematic way of thinking. And luckily many of us don't think that way and more are realising that it's wrong and will change their way of thinking, but it's still not an uncommon occurrence.

[Original Alear]

Tell that to FE13. Where most of the females are "plot unkillable". You'll never be able to use them again on Classic mode, but for certain purposes story-wise, they're unkillable.

In an attempt to correct my own error:

Maybe I don't think about game stories as things to talk about enough...

When I read your post, I just sort of responded in kind. "Always" was quite the hyperbole, and very fake of me. I put my foot down too strongly, and I didn't even realize it.

I'm fine with plot unkillables, and I don't think it bothered me that Nin came back to life until just now. When Ninian came back - or rather, when she killed the two fire dragons - the feeling of "2/3 of the work is done," and an actual shiver down my spine. And it was sad that a dragon was killing two other dragons. And I was kind of happy that Athos died, and that Kurthnaga died.

That is an excellent point there. On a slightly related note, internalised misogyny is a big problem and I see a lot of women putting other women down because "being a woman is a 'bad' and therefore I'm 'different' and thus 'better' and I'm gonna judge the hell out of other women" or something along the lines of that and it's a very problematic way of thinking. And luckily many of us don't think that way and more are realising that it's wrong and will change their way of thinking, but it's still not an uncommon occurrence.

"As long as I'm nonfiction, I'm gonna judge the hell outta fiction!"

[essay about General Ripper and Colonel Mandrake]

[veetasoy]

female shippers hate female characters for daring to fraternize with Mr. Bishie and for getting in the way of their naughty slash pairings.

Probably this.

Well, that and the fact is that most video game developers are male and don't seem to understand females very well. You see things from a male perspective of females, which can be anything from "God I want to -insert whatever you want here- her" to "She talks like my goddamn mom" to "That's what my SISTER sounds like"; i.e. you see things more from a third-person perspective and so lack the ability to empathize with female characters. At least, that's what I think. At the very opposite of the spectrum you have the dreaded otome games which try to make you as bland and self-insertable as possible, or weak to make the guys look strong. So yeah, not much hope for female characters.

[Esau of Isaac]

Probably this.

Well, that and the fact is that most video game developers are male and don't seem to understand females very well. You see things from a male perspective of females, which can be anything from "God I want to -insert whatever you want here- her" to "She talks like my goddamn mom" to "That's what my SISTER sounds like"; i.e. you see things more from a third-person perspective and so lack the ability to empathize with female characters. At least, that's what I think. At the very opposite of the spectrum you have the dreaded otome games which try to make you as bland and self-insertable as possible, or weak to make the guys look strong. So yeah, not much hope for female characters.

What if you were to say, "She talks like my goddamn mom, that's what my SISTER sounds like, and God I want to -insert (heh) whatever I want here- her," all at the same time?

Edit: Anyways, I think most of the time the female character gets the brunt because she's supposed to be the one that ultimately decides on which relationship essentially happens. Males in fiction (or at least, the fiction most associated with shipping) are rarely the type that cut off any kind of relationship unless it's clearly a harmful one. Additionally, in most anime/manga, it's seen as advantageous to the plot and apparently most character archetypes for the male to not really "push" for one specific female. Instead, he treats them all closely, albeit in a seemingly platonic manner. It is then up to whichever female does so to state her feelings, with usually the first one doing so ending up being the love interest.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Esau of Isaac

[Ciarre]

That is an excellent point there. On a slightly related note, internalised misogyny is a big problem and I see a lot of women putting other women down because "being a woman is a 'bad' and therefore I'm 'different' and thus 'better' and I'm gonna judge the hell out of other women" or something along the lines of that and it's a very problematic way of thinking. And luckily many of us don't think that way and more are realising that it's wrong and will change their way of thinking, but it's still not an uncommon occurrence.

Thank you, Lumi. These are my thoughts exactly.

I don't really like those people who say things along the lines of, "I don't hang out with women because other women are bitches", or "other women have too much drama, therefore I won't associate with them". That's not even breaching the whole fictional character shipping fiascoes. I can't really go anywhere without seeing that x female character should die because y male character belongs with z male character. Or rarely, another female character that they (usually) deem stronger or more independent.

A random person on dA said, "First off, I don't really like girls. ... Or maybe I don't like girls because I can understand the way their minds work, I don't know and I probably never will. I usually think they're annoying." Then proceeds to go and fangirl all over said male characters. I think yaoi is definitely one of the bigger reasons why female characters get so much hate in shipping because people like the lady mentioned above can't stand the thought of these "weak women" being paired their favorite character, and would prefer another male character. I'm leaning towards the thought that it might be a form of wish fulfillment, maybe, considering that this wouldn't happen in real life.

I'm finding that this sort of bashing is more confined towards the anime fandoms though.

edit: but I can't really understand why people would argue about that, lol. I ship everyone with everything and it's great and bacon

Edited January 23, 2013 by Seregil

[Eberict]

edit: but I can't really understand why people would argue about that, lol. I ship everyone with everything and it's great and bacon

I know that in the Japanese fandom circles, the shipping wars don't get half as bad as they do in the English-speaking side of the pond. They're much more open about cross-shipping than the English-speaking community by far. More armchair psychology, but my theory ties in closely to that of whomever spoke of self-fulfilment fantasy. Perhaps the arguments rage hotter because of projection--identifying closely with one of the male characters--and personal investment. It's always been an observation of mine that, in yaoi romances, the men portray much more feminine traits, and a male homosexual friend of mine even pointed out his absolute disdain for yaoi on the basis that it wasn't, by any stretch, about two men, but rather about two women in men's bodies. He disliked its failure to portray his sexuality. Bring in concepts like yaoi-ana (don't ask) and I can see his point.

The other theory, much more tongue-in-cheek, is that, knowingly or not, Westerners are far too accustomed to being imperial masters that the idea that any idea other than their own being correct is anathema. Cue the instinct to dominate/colonise all other ideas until theirs is the only one left standing, hahaha!

[Anouleth]

I don't know about that. I've seen Homestuck shipping wars, and the hatred seems to be pretty proportionate between men (Karkat and Jake) and women (Terezi and Jane). If anything, the fanbase seems to like the female characters more, perhaps because they get more opportunities to shine (consider that Vriska, Aradia, Kanaya, and Terezi are all major characters in Act 5, while the only major male characters are Karkat and later Gamzee).

The only serious shipping argument I know of in FE is Ike/Elincia versus Ike/Geoffrey, but I've never seen it from the angle that "Ike is too good for Elincia" or whatever, it's more "Elincia shouldn't have to settle for Geoffrey just because things didn't work out with Ike". I guess there is quite a lot of hate for Micaiah while Ike doesn't get nearly as much scrutiny, though.

[Original Alear]

it's seen as advantageous to the plot and apparently most character archetypes

What does "advantageous [to] apparently most character archetypes" mean? That it is to the advantage of characters fitted to those archetypes, (for most archetypes), who are male, to act in such a way?

I guess there is quite a lot of hate for Micaiah while Ike doesn't get nearly as much scrutiny, though.

And from a plot perspective, I think that's an example of the deserved/undeserved. Ike's "mission" as anything more than an underling doing side-jobs begins with royal patronage (albeit, from a weak aristocrat). In the beginning of FE10, Micaiah is part of a fairly insignificant-seeming resistance movement. Would you rather deal with bandits, or with soldiers who have the support of an organized empire? I'd suppose I'd take the bandits, especially if given the choice between an experienced group of mercenaries and an impromptu (always are, I suppose, when not mercenaries) resistance movement.

I mean, the GM are a pretty well organized mercenary group. They are even well assured enough to send their inexperienced mage on a study trip.

With homestuck, I generally am fine with whatever's happening while it's happening. I'm a terrible person.

[Rehab]

I think there's a possibility it depends on the circle one's talking about. I feel like I've seen plenty of "He's nowhere near good enough for her!"'s, or some equivalent, though I can't be anything near certain it's universally equal or more common.

Though it does sound reasonably possible that a lot of female characters might be written from a male perspective, with less-than-comprehensive experience/consideration for creating a female perspective that's more engaging/appealing than an enabler/tag-along/annoyance/all of the above.

I know that in the Japanese fandom circles, the shipping wars don't get half as bad as they do in the English-speaking side of the pond. They're much more open about cross-shipping than the English-speaking community by far. More armchair psychology, but my theory ties in closely to that of whomever spoke of self-fulfilment fantasy. Perhaps the arguments rage hotter because of projection--identifying closely with one of the male characters--and personal investment. It's always been an observation of mine that, in yaoi romances, the men portray much more feminine traits, and a male homosexual friend of mine even pointed out his absolute disdain for yaoi on the basis that it wasn't, by any stretch, about two men, but rather about two women in men's bodies. He disliked its failure to portray his sexuality. Bring in concepts like yaoi-ana (don't ask) and I can see his point.

The other theory, much more tongue-in-cheek, is that, knowingly or not, Westerners are far too accustomed to being imperial masters that the idea that any idea other than their own being correct is anathema. Cue the instinct to dominate/colonise all other ideas until theirs is the only one left standing, hahaha!

Different strokes, I think. Getting anatomy wrong can be really jarring, for one thing, yeah. And porn being made by people from whose perspective it is wish-fulfillment (IMO not necessarily a bad thing all the time) can sometimes often have parts of it that the author/creator filled in with what they fantasize/would like to be the case, rather than what you'd be most likely to see/hear if you surveyed all the kinds of people actually being depicted (less of a not-bad thing). I think it's worth noting, though, that not all male sexuality is the same, and I've at least read people claiming to be guys say they liked at least some form of yaoi to some degree, possibly some of a more feminine bent.

which is a long winded way of saying your friend could've been perhaps a bit zealous in saying that it portrays women in male bodies :p

[spoiler=haha porn]some of the only gay porn I ever liked was drawn/written by a woman and would probably be considered kinda feminine in some ways/overall *cough*rossdressin*cough*

With homestuck, I generally am fine with whatever's happening while it's happening. I'm a terrible person.

There's really no other way to read it without going crazy.

whoa that's a lot of slashes/strikes/parentheses in this post, my apologies to your eyes

Edited January 23, 2013 by Rehab

[Thor Odinson]

edit: but I can't really understand why people would argue about that, lol. I ship everyone with everything and it's great and bacon

Best way of shipping right here

[Original Alear]

bacon

That reminds me.

When I was in high school or college, I had an idea of filming a documentary on bacon numbers that would compile footage of all actors with a "listed" bacon number of greater than 1 together, and include footage of Kevin Bacon, so that everyone with a listed Bacon number would be 1.

He is still alive, and it can still be done!

[Anouleth]

What does "advantageous [to] apparently most character archetypes" mean? That it is to the advantage of characters fitted to those archetypes, (for most archetypes), who are male, to act in such a way?

And from a plot perspective, I think that's an example of the deserved/undeserved. Ike's "mission" as anything more than an underling doing side-jobs begins with royal patronage (albeit, from a weak aristocrat). In the beginning of FE10, Micaiah is part of a fairly insignificant-seeming resistance movement. Would you rather deal with bandits, or with soldiers who have the support of an organized empire? I'd suppose I'd take the bandits, especially if given the choice between an experienced group of mercenaries and an impromptu (always are, I suppose, when not mercenaries) resistance movement.

I mean, the GM are a pretty well organized mercenary group.

Except they're not a mercenary group. They don't work for money, perhaps because they don't think that video game players would sufficiently empathise with someone who works for money (just as Samus is not really a bounty hunter as she was originally imagined - since she spends most of her time responding to distress calls, I guess she's more like the Galactic Coastguard). They're more like a well-organised group of vigilantes.

[Original Alear]

Except they're not a mercenary group. They don't work for money, perhaps because they don't think that video game players would sufficiently empathise with someone who works for money (just as Samus is not really a bounty hunter as she was originally imagined - since she spends most of her time responding to distress calls, I guess she's more like the Galactic Coastguard). They're more like a well-organised group of vigilantes.

Ah. Well, they do work for money in the game, from big clients, IIRC. However, they don't really have the "mercenary spirit" that I might use condescendingly. So ya, I can buy/agree with what you're saying as something important.

The reason I'd wonder about vigilantes, is because that tiptoes a bit in the other direction...they seem to be more like an organization specifically dedicated to the use of force, than civilians who keep an eye out (for good or bad, opportunistically or not). I'd guess that's more about how I see vigilantes in the media normally portrayed though.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Mouse

[Esau of Isaac]

What does "advantageous [to] apparently most character archetypes" mean? That it is to the advantage of characters fitted to those archetypes, (for most archetypes), who are male, to act in such a way?

As in they are seen as preferable qualities by the audience, or perhaps preferable for producers because of convenience. The majority of male protagonists in shonen and seinen that I've seen act in a fairly naive manner in terms of attraction to other female leads. They will at times show interest in the opposite sex, even specific females, but rarely truly "go for" any possible object of attraction. This is likely because it's difficult to create a sense of drama and suspense for viewers when the person in question successfully enters into a relationship with the girl they love. This is why most of the time two lovebirds don't truly admit their feelings for one another until the last segment of the show.

There are some notable exceptions, but they're often the result of characters that simply don't "play by the rules" socially or those that later die to make way for plot. Good examples of the former are Bakemonogatari's Senjougahara and Araraki, who are coupled within the first five episodes, and Mirai Nikki's Yukiteru and Yuno, who are (grudgingly so in Yuki's opinion) an official couple less than halfway through the show.

[Original Alear]

Oh. I'm guessing shojo stuff is sometimes different than that - I saw His and Her Circumstances when I was much younger, and the principle characters started dating pretty quickly. It was a slice-of-life approach, IIRC. Was there still naivete, on the part of either character? I think so...it's been a long time.

And as for it being hard to create drama and suspense...I've watched more anime than I've read manga, and I'd imagine the 30 minute timeframe for episodes relates to that. Also, I'd point out that when I think of successful anime and manga, shonen, I think of DB and DBZ - ofc, there is much more besides it, and also hokuto no ken (seinen?). I also dunno when Goku or Chichi got married, relative to the end of Dragonball (didn't read/see all of it). Maybe I haven't seen enough shows.

What I would agree with is that a fair amount of male main character things probably do have the kind of structure you suggest. I can think of some that don't, I guess, but it doesn't really seem that interesting to do so...there are also things which subvert it.

Maybe part of it is that the MC usually gets so much time to shine - sexism or just MC love - that the love interest's role is defined relative to theirs. I.e., a "boring girl" (I remember, after watching Naruto, it seems like fans wanted Sakura to do more) or more simply side character syndrome.

As for lovebirds, I have to admit that to me, unless they're not clear on their feelings they aren't really lovebirds? I dunno...maybe I don't believe in destined lovers in that way.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Mouse

[Esau of Isaac]

Oh. I'm guessing shojo stuff is sometimes different than that - I saw His and Her Circumstances when I was much younger, and the principle characters started dating pretty quickly. It was a slice-of-life approach, IIRC. Was there still naivete, on the part of either character? I think so...it's been a long time.

And as for it being hard to create drama and suspense...I've watched more anime than I've read manga, and I'd imagine the 30 minute timeframe for episodes relates to that. Also, I'd point out that when I think of successful anime and manga, shonen, I think of DB and DBZ - ofc, there is much more besides it, and also hokuto no ken (seinen?). I also dunno when Goku or Chichi got married, relative to the end of Dragonball (didn't read/see all of it). Maybe I haven't seen enough shows.

What I would agree with is that a fair amount of male main character things probably do have the kind of structure you suggest. I can think of some that don't, I guess, but it doesn't really seem that interesting to do so...there are also things which subvert it.

In an earlier draft of the post I'd made a reference to shoujo and josei, as they have varying plots that at times definitely go against the grain shown in more male-oriented programs.

Maybe part of it is that the MC usually gets so much time to shine - sexism or just MC love - that the love interest's role is defined relative to theirs. I.e., a "boring girl" (I remember, after watching Naruto, it seems like fans wanted Sakura to do more) or more simply side character syndrome.

That can be true as well. Which reminds me I need to get back up to date in Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece. I'm only a few out for the first two, but I'm like fifty out for the lattermost. >__>

As for lovebirds, I have to admit that to me, unless they're not clear on their feelings they aren't really lovebirds? I dunno...maybe I don't believe in destined lovers in that way.

Yeah, part of the suspense lies in the buildup to the eventual confession and the cuteness of getting there. Like the entire latter half of this episode.

[Popo]

I am notorious for coming down hard on female characters, especially in pairings. I can admit it. However, a lot of this doesn't really stem from me looking for a "self-insert character" to project on, or the desire for the classic "relateable female lead" that was mentioned earlier. Here's my take on the matter.

In general, a lot of video games (and anime) are targeted primarily towards men, or towards a broad audience but with the underlying assumption that men are going to be the most likely to buy into the series. As a result, there are a lot of instances in which the female characters are written in such a way that they appeal to men, but don't necessarily appeal to women. I get it; it's an industry, and you need to cater to the needs and interests of your clientele. There's nothing wrong with this.

However, as a female, it get's really debasing after a while when the pandering becomes blatant, and it makes me increasingly more jaded and scrutinizing of female characters. Are they actually a good character? Are they motivated? Do they assist the plot at all? Are they a sexual character or a sexualized character? In the end, I tend to spend a lot more time analyzing the merits of the female characters, or rather, the female side of the pairing equation as opposed to the male side. Seeing that I am a female, I think that this makes sense. It's a lot easier for me to see when a female character is being used as a tool in the same way that men can fairly easily identify weak, pandering male characters.

For the record, I'm not generalizing and claiming that all female characters suffer from pandering or poor writing. Far from it, actually. And on the flip side, I acknowledge that there is media aimed at women, and it reverses the situation in such a way that the men are the idealized forms and have been crafted to appeal to women, which makes actual men cringe. In this sense, it evens out the playing field a little, and it gives me greater context and understanding when I see media that panders towards men. As I said, you have to appeal to your audience, although I believe it's much more advantageous to it in a subtle manner.

In short, shipping is contingent on liking both characters in the pairing. Since the majority of shippers seem to be women, it's natural that female characters are going to be examined a little harder, because that's what fangirls can quickly identify with or reject. (I think the same would be true if the majority of shippers were men. We'd have fewer arguments over the ladies, and more arguments over the merit and plausibility of manly tears and excessive shirt-removal.) This is compounded by the fact that there's a slight but undeniable sexual bias that tends to favor men and do an occasional disservice to female characters. When a fangirl fails to find a suitable female partner for her male character of choice, this is when the floodgates open up and male/male pairings start to enter the equation. (Speaking purely from my own experience and observation. Again, not generalizing all fangirls here.)

I would also like to mention that FE has some exceptional female characters, in my opinion.

Except for Ninian. 8D