The Lunatic Club

[-Cynthia-]

Hmm yeah I guess if you're careful you might be able to Nostank. Do Nosferatu+Sol work together?

Edited March 17, 2015 by -Cynthia-

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Yep, Nos and Sol stack to heal for the full amount.

Depending on the point in the game and how much Hawkeye/Luna+/Hawkeye with Luna+ is in the clump Robin is fighting, if she/he is overleveled enough, she/he can generally get away with fighting 2, maybe 3, Counter enemies with just Sol or Nos. Nos with Sol can probably get away with a bit more and even a bit further than that with Nos and Vengeance.

[Interceptor]

^ I know that the discussion is about Robin here, but this is also a big part of the reason that LAURENT! is such a badass in L+. Particularly with a strong +SKL support, like Lucina on BK.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Interceptor

[XeKr]

I don't give a damn about taking forever, Prologue takes like what, 60 something turns if you do the Water Trick? It seems silly to be bothered about speed after that. The items you get from most of the subobjectives aren't even all that useful most of the time either. Working in extra staffbots is relatively easy comparatively since you can literally convert raw money into EXP for anyone who can use a staff. The only reason I can think of not to do it is because I'll probably have to use Spotpass shops to buy Nosferatu and stuff, so if I wanted to stick to a more "vanilla" kind of run (it's in the spirit of nogrind and stuff), then I'd have to resort to Bow Emblem. Which if I do, kind of demands more units I think.

Honestly iirc from my one complete L+ run from like the initial release month (wtf is the water trick?), it’s really not that bad to brute-force in an objective real-time sense with Nosferatu/Sol and/or Galeforce/Rescue but resets eat at your FE player soul. Animation skip too strong.

Edited March 17, 2015 by XeKr

[omega zero]

Think of it more as, "Hey, there's these random guys who one-shot your strongest guy, yet don't do as much damage to your weaker guys. Maybe you should train up one of your weaker guys so your strongest guy doesn't have to deal with those guys." It shows that there are enemies, even in the very early chapters, that are legit threats to Fred, so perhaps putting all of one's eggs in one basket might end poorly in the future.

Perhaps, but that's far more ambiguous than what I was going for. What's stopping the player from killing the hammer-wielders with some other character and then continuing on with Fred? Or just throwing Fred at the hammer guys and resetting if he goes down? I still think super-effective weapons vs Fred are a non-intuitive way to teach people about EXP mechanics and how well other characters can get up to speed if you help them along slowly and gently. They should be cautiously optimistic about training other characters, not afraid.

Maybe enough player DO make the connection. I think we'd actually need input/data to settle this issue. The point is to not to instantly give players the solutions, but rather to teach them how to experiment the right way, by giving them the knowledge to throw out bad strategies before trying them and formulate good/consistent ones to actually try out. It's like chess AI. Super computers, with all their speed and computing power, would still take a VERY long time to look 5 moves ahead. But, clever programmers cut down on that time by 'trimming the tree' of sub-optimal moves (at least that's how I understand it).

Another example is Interceptor's guiding principles. Concrete defenses to survive the enemy phase, leaving the player phase to nullify dangerous threats. These are very general concepts, but they give rise to a variety of good strategies because they get you into the right mind-set.

Edited March 17, 2015 by omega zero

[Czar_Yoshi]

I don't give a damn about taking forever, Prologue takes like what, 60 something turns if you do the Water Trick? It seems silly to be bothered about speed after that.

You may not care, but those NPCs and recruitables very definitely do. Anna and Libra have no interest in self-preservation and will make you pay if you even think about dawdling, to the point of attacking Counter guys on turn one AP and exploding.

Counter: also worth nothing that ranged enemies always attack at range when possible (except against Bows), so them having Counter might as well not matter. Throwing yourself into a clump of enemies with some of them in is just extra HP.

[Irysa]

You may not care, but those NPCs and recruitables very definitely do. Anna and Libra have no interest in self-preservation and will make you pay if you even think about dawdling, to the point of attacking Counter guys on turn one AP and exploding.

NPCs don't matter, and if you get Libra you can just Rescue Anna on Turn 1. Getting Libra not to kill himself on Luna+ is a pain in the ass regardless of how many units you're fielding I'd imagine sadly. :(

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Counter: also worth nothing that ranged enemies always attack at range when possible (except against Bows), so them having Counter might as well not matter. Throwing yourself into a clump of enemies with some of them in is just extra HP.

This is mostly true, although there is an exception: 1~2 range enemies prefer terrain bonuses if they know they're going to get counterattacked at either range. So if you do this, don't stand next to Woods/Fort/etc., because those enemies will go into melee to get those bonuses (all 1~2 range play this way, so the enemy is still oblivious that it has Counter).

Perhaps, but that's far more ambiguous than what I was going for. What's stopping the player from killing the hammer-wielders with some other character and then continuing on with Fred? Or just throwing Fred at the hammer guys and resetting if he goes down? I still think super-effective weapons vs Fred are a non-intuitive way to teach people about EXP mechanics and how well other characters can get up to speed if you help them along slowly and gently. They should be cautiously optimistic about training other characters, not afraid.

Well, if the other characters are only used for the single kill, they'll fall too far behind to help Fred a few maps down the line when they also get one-shot by Hammer dude by sheer stats alone. I admit that it's not the most straightfoward way nor the best to teach the player (especially with the about to reset and brute force, although that only takes people so far in the long run), but I still think it's fairly clever design.

NPCs don't matter, and if you get Libra you can just Rescue Anna on Turn 1. Getting Libra not to kill himself on Luna+ is a pain in the ass regardless of how many units you're fielding I'd imagine sadly. :(

It really depends. If the Soldier has Counter, then Libra's almost guaranteed dead on EP2 (basically, a crit or the Dark Mage having irrelevant skills can save him; granted, if the Soldier also has Pavise+, Libra will insta-blick himself because the crit isn't enough damage for a one-shot). If the Soldier doesn't have Counter, Libra can possibly live as long as PP4. That's generally enough time to get someone in range to Rescue him. My recent routing has also turned up a way to reliably get him on PP2 (he's very likely to survive EP1, as, barring a 3% crit, the DM and Archer can't kill him even with dual Luna+ and the Soldier's desert movement is too low to get to Libra) using a 10 Mag Lissa, Magic Tonic, Ricken, and an overleveled Sorc Robin with a forged Flux for one-shotting; I'll post the strategy to my thread when I manage to get my notes cleaned up to that point.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Your Fred is a little overleveled, but the other characters' stats look pretty good to me. You may want to train a few more people to get yourself up to 3-4 combat pairs, but there's plenty of training opportunity in C7 and C8.

[XeKr]

I find Frederick's personal bases are too low and he levels too slowly, even reclassed to be unpromoted, due to how many internal levels he'll have. I'd use him more as just a Pair Up from now on and reclass Chrom to Cavalier or Lon'qu to Wyvern.

Manakete Morgan is a very good tank.

Edited March 17, 2015 by XeKr

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

You might want to do Sumia if she's going to marry Chrom. You also might want to think about a wife for Lon'qu. Otherwise, Nowi is a pretty good frontliner once she gets a few levels under her belt. Manakete, in general, is just a really good class to be and stay in for vanilla Lunatic. Cordelia tends to be pretty good and easy to train, so if you like fliers, she is definitely an option.

I'm not entirely sure about Wyvern Lord Fred, but I doubt it's worth the Second Seal investment. Fred left as a Great Knight can be still fairly usable up to C15-16 so long as he can get a speed pair-up, but his long term use is very limited (he should still be durable to be a drop-in decoy tank as far as C19, but don't expect him to be killing anything). I suppose reclassing to Wyvern Lord more or less makes him a flying version of this, but I'm sure your other units would love to have the Second Seal more.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Alright, Draco got me to start another Lunatic run where I don't grind to oblivion

If you want to use Chrom x Sumia, you'll need to train her. She'll be really weak if she hasn't gotten any exp yet, but should still be able to beat non-Arcwind Mages in Cht.8 for training depending on what her support with Chrom looks like (ideally it should be to S right now, if you're willing to reset spam B will be enough to reasonably get the job done). Chrom's level is about where it should be- he won't be frontlining much but also is keeping up enough to be useful.

That's some really nice Str on your Avatar, though. Did you use the Renown boosters on it?

Ricken is massively outclassed on Lunatic(+) by Miriel, but I'll be interested to see how he turns out.

Nowi is a good choice yeah. Make sure to save her a Seraph Robe and but a Dragonstone+ from Tiki's Spotpass team before recruiting her, as together they allow her to mostly skip her hump and start training right away with mere heavy favoritism (as opposed to outright babying). If you do it right she'll take off around Cht.10.

I also see more dudebros than women in your team, which is odd because females are usually better. You may want to consider adding Cord as a wife for Fred if you want to keep both Ricken and Lon'qu around. Lon'qu, by the way, would appreciate a Second Seal to Wyvern if you get a spare.

I don't like Wyvern Fred- he's basically the same as GK but without the +Mov pairup bonus.

Lon'qu can make a good husband for Cord as well, but she comes with plenty of Spd and wants more Str to ORKO stuff so he won't give what she wants unless he's a Wyvern (then it's a good move). If using er you should also consider investing in a Short Spear from Spotpass for her, and having a Str tonic on hand- enough boosts and she can ORKO stuff in Cht.8.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Lon'qu x Cordelia will turn out very well rounded if you do make him a Wyvern, just those first two chapters will be iffy. Fred is mostly recommended because he's a good +Str/Mov support who opens up right around the time when his old supportees outgrow him, and he's got a good chance of having Luna in time for Severa (yours already has it), which she can make good use of.

Chrom x Olivia is good if you're patient enough to spam Olivia up to Lv.30 so Lucina and Inigo's bases don't stink and great if you go the extra mile and manage to get her to DF Lv.15 in time for them (which is possible with some care- a reclass after Cht.11, Arms Scroll + forged Beastkiller for Cht.12, and maybe a saved Paralogue 4 for exp). She also has the unusual benefit of making Chrom and Robin's children not consist of four girls, which is extremely annoying to deal with when making pairs for lategame.

[XeKr]

Your team looks pretty balanced. You should be fine later with the children, especially Lucina, (just don't promote them immediately at level 10) and the Manakete girls. And you'll have Rally Spectrum. Might end up dropping a few first gens as combat units though like Ricken, Lon'qu and Cordelia. imo you should use the latter for Rally Speed (so I'd probably promote Chrom and Cordelia now)

[Ownagepuffs]

Why drop Cordelia? She's fine with a forged beast killer for basically all of Valm.

C12 is mostly cavalry. Looking at stats, the cavaliers have 44 HP/11 Def. Your Cordelia will have 42 atk with an unforged beast killer against horses. A clean 2HKO. Cordy needs 21 Spd to double them for a ORKO. Second seal Fred to Paladin if you have one, because now's the time where Cordelia will need that +4 Str, Spd, Ski, and Def to keep up. LQ and Ricken are gonna fall off but Cordelia is gonna be just fine.

[Ownagepuffs]

Insta promote Henry can rig Nah's paralogue if you're patient enough.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Yep. There's very little opposition in that initial hall and your staff useres should be at a point where about half of that hall is a viable place to Rescue her from, so you shouldn't have to fear the enemies in the shifty wall section.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I'm looking at Nowi's stats and seeing no Dragonstone+? You might want to get one for her.

Otherwise your team is a little spread out but otherwise in good shape. You'll want to transition as many of the second rate parents into Staff duty as possible once their kids arrive to take over as combat units to keep the exp from getting too thin, though.

Nah's Paralogue sells Second Seals. Do it first if you have a shortage of them.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

A +Def Robin or Morgan in a tanky class will trivialize Lunatic (and that's before pair-ups and Tonics). Their concrete Def gets so high (44-46 range) that there are very few things in the game that can pose a legitimate threat to them.

[XeKr]

Why drop Cordelia? She's fine with a forged beast killer for basically all of Valm.

C12 is mostly cavalry. Looking at stats, the cavaliers have 44 HP/11 Def. Your Cordelia will have 42 atk with an unforged beast killer against horses. A clean 2HKO. Cordy needs 21 Spd to double them for a ORKO. Second seal Fred to Paladin if you have one, because now's the time where Cordelia will need that +4 Str, Spd, Ski, and Def to keep up. LQ and Ricken are gonna fall off but Cordelia is gonna be just fine.

Well one could keep training them (even Lon’qu, Ricken), but given their current stats at this point in the game, I suspect they’ll be very lacking compared to Lucina and other children who are joining soon (and will fill out the deployment slots sufficiently to give a well-rounded team). It’s just an exp investment to leveling speed thing.

Edited March 19, 2015 by XeKr

[Draco]

Alright, just beat chapter 13

jesus dude. I started days before you but you're already ahead of me!

wait I just realized. Unrelated but under the "Edited by Eclipse at *inserttimehere*", it has some words. Can only mods do that?

[eclipse]

Unrelated but under the "Edited by Eclipse at *inserttimehere*", it has some words. Can only mods do that?

Nope, everyone can do that to their own posts~! Here's how:

1. Find a post you want to edit.

2. Click Edit.

3. Look a bit above the Save Changes button, and a little bit to the left. You'll see a small field labeled "Reason for edit:"; this'll show up as the reason why you edited. Follow the CoC and all~!

Insta promote Henry can rig Nah's paralogue if you're patient enough.

Can an unpromoted Tharja/Henry do this?

Edited March 19, 2015 by eclipse
Because I forgot where this special snowflake of a field resided

[Czar_Yoshi]

Unpromoted as in base?

Short answer is yes. Long answer is the Boss has 71 HP, 29 Res and you're trying to take that down with Mire- sure, you're not under any time pressure, but it'll cost a lot and take forever (you'll also need to get Tharja to C Tomes if using her). Those two have 12 and 15 base Mag, Mire is 10 mt and you can get +6 out of an untrained Miriel support and Mag tonic and +1 more from C Tomes. That leaves Henry doing just 3 damage per hit, which will take more than two Mires to get him down. It's so ridiculous that you'd halve the uses required of base Henry by promoting, and the Master Seal required to do so only costs 500G more than an extra Mire Tome (or free, if you have a spare sitting around).

[Ownagepuffs]

It may not be possible to use that method *and* recruit Nah, as the enemies start moving to her position by like turn 3 or something and that method would take like 25 turns. Tharja's hit rates will also be reeeeeeaaaalllly low. Tharja's base skl is 5 and Henry's is 15. Tharja also won't benefit from the hit boost of Demoiselle like Henry since it only works for guys. Due to me wanting to get Nah immediately, my method didn't have rally spectrum, rally magic or rally skill, all of which would have massively improved reliability so that's also an option if he wants to wait a bit longer for her.

[Irysa]

Assuming you actually promoted the units you're using, I don't see why you'd be having issues with Morgan's paralogue. Anna should be able to rescue Morgan turn 1, Lucina P.Falchions Wyverns (great trainng opportunity actually) whilst Avatar Elwinds (or Rexcalibur or something, idk, Elwind was fine for me but I also doubled them due to Lon'qu pairup) the Gryphons. The Swordmasters aren't particularly difficult to kill, although they are considerably faster than most of your team, but you have enough ways to chip them down. The unpromoted enemies are all chumps. You can also buy Rescue Staves now so you can just throw units at problematic enemies then rescue them out of danger.

The only thing you have to do is make sure you clear the bottom half of the map as quickly as possible, then use Lucina or Avatar to pull the fliers from the right hand side of the map before reinforcements start spawning (use a flier to get them into position over the water, then rescue staff them out once you've activated the group), and block the bottom right stairs. Ideally you lure the Wyverns from the not quite the top left of the map too, because both these groups start moving when the reinforcements begin to spawn, and make it more hectic. The Gryphon rider from the center stairs should be lured into Elwind Avatar as he spawns, and the Wyverns aren't too difficult to deal with either. Most of the reinforcements will go around the long way whilst the Swordmasters will walk over the water at a slower rate, which gives you enough breathing room to get them all dead before you deal with the unpromoted chumps and the odd sage or so. Then, you can recooperate and clear the top half of the map at your leisure, although I had Lucina in a flier fly up to a particular tile near the boss that lets her engage a bunch of enemy Wyverns whilst my other units killed the remaning ones to the left.

If you can't clear fast enough, you'll have to give up on some treasure but it's really not a big deal.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Irysa