Enemies spawn

[Florete]

at the beginning of the enemy phase.

This one awful mechanic is putting a huge damper on my enjoyment of the game. Why'd they have to bring this bullshit back?

And naturally, I had to go Hard and Classic for my first run. I'm kicking myself now for not lowering at least one of those to Normal/Casual.

[nocturnal YL]

at the beginning of the enemy phase.

This one awful mechanic is putting a huge damper on my enjoyment of the game. Why'd they have to bring this bullshit back?

Because that's standard for hard?

EDIT - Elaboration: Many games in the series - the most recent being FE12 - worked this way. So it's not like it's a long lost feature being brought back.

Edited February 16, 2013 by nocturnal YL

[Constable Reggie]

Completely agree. The second to last chapter in particularly pissed me off since there's no indication where or when whatsoever the enemies are gonna come. I ended up just sending flying Morgan up through the middle and finishing the chapter in like 3 turns.

[Othin]

While having bosses that announce reinforcements before they show up. Hmm.

[Constable Reggie]

They don't do that in every chapter.

[Phoenix Wright]

It's actually a really cool mechanic. Lots more challenge on hard mode (which is already pretty challenging in its own right).

[47948201]

Challenge or no, it's generally fake challenge in that, strategically, the only thing you can possibly do about ambush spawns is block the spawnpoints, but what about those that spawn from the sides of the map? You can't know what's going to spawn there without first experiencing it, so how do you counter it? It could be a Sniper or magic unit, or it could be a flier/mounted unit or physical unit, so there's really nothing you can do ahead of time without leaving a lot to chance. And whoops, the boss said he's calling in reinforcements, but now your army's facing the wrong way or is on the other side of the map and you get flanked, herp. It's just unfair, really. But I guess it's justifiable in that it does add difficulty (and therefore longevity when reinforcements from nowhere kill your healers and you restart) and realism to an extent (yeah, you're a bit outpowered), but I can't say either of those are necessarily for the better :V

[Florete]

Because that's standard for hard?

EDIT - Elaboration: Many games in the series - the most recent being FE12 - worked this way. So it's not like it's a long lost feature being brought back.

I know it's been used before, and I've always hated it before. I never played FE12, but it wasn't present in 7-10 and I don't think it was in 11, either (correct me if I'm wrong, though). Its presence in 6 is one of many reasons why I...rather dislike that game, for example.

And I'm pretty sure it was never linked to the difficulty setting.

While having bosses that announce reinforcements before they show up. Hmm.

As said, not all the time. Even when they do, you don't know when and won't always know where, either.

It's actually a really cool mechanic. Lots more challenge on hard mode (which is already pretty challenging in its own right).

It's really more like fake difficulty, if you ask me. There's already an element of luck in the game, but with this I don't even know what my chances are unless I know ahead of time where and when the enemies spawn.

I could probably handle it if it was always announced in some way that they'd be coming and they only came from specific spawn points like forts, but I'm on chapter 15 and have had to reset due to the Pegasus reinforcements, random in every way, twice now.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Othin]

It just means you have to stay away from those areas or end the chapter before they become a problem.A perfectly legitimate added challenge for difficulty, especially when the worst of the reinforcements tend to show up in "Defeat boss" chapters like Ch21 and Ch25.

[Constable Reggie]

When you have no idea where or (a lesser problem) when they're going to arrive, then it just forces you to go through trial and error, ie fake difficulty. Ambush spawning is used perfectly well in some chapters (the valkrie boss one is an example), but in others is completely trite. Chapter 25 is not an example of legitimate difficulty.

A good use of ambush spawning is to have to several known spots that are obviously reinforcement tiles, but too many of them to feasibly plug up, which they do in the earlier chapters, so it will give you a sense of where the enemies will come from. But then they stop doing that.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[47948201]

But stay away from what areas? On your first run through, you can't know where what's going to spawn, so that just becomes a memorization game more than a strategy game since apart from soloing a chapter with a tanky pair or constantly moving around with a circle around your squishier units, there's nothing strategically you can do.

(EDIT: See CR's post)

Edited February 16, 2013 by 47948201

[Othin]

The trial and error part isn't even worth mentioning. These are higher difficulty levels: they're meant for when you've already played the game on Normal and should know the gist of it all already. If you choose to forego that preparation, you have no one to blame but yourself. The added challenge is working cautiously with that foreknowledge, which is perfectly legitimate difficulty.

[PKL]

I find that this feature tends to keep you on your toes. I sometimes would block forts with some of my units in my first run of FE13 "just to be safe". The only time I got ambushed was Olivia standing next to a stair in Kjelle's paralogue in my first run and thats because I was careless.

Edited February 16, 2013 by CordeliaxFrederick

[Constable Reggie]

That's complete bullshit. Even in the game, normal mode is described as "For series beginners" aka for newcomers to the Fire Emblem franchise aka easy mode.

If a first person shooter on easy mode only spawns powerful bad guys behind you after explicitly telling you every time, but on normal mode they indicate to you the first 2 times they spawn, but not the rest, you can't just say "you're supposed to play easy mode first to get the full enjoyment of normal mode". You'd call it bad design.

*edited to make it more comparable to Awakening

Edited February 16, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[PKL]

That's complete bullshit. Even in the game, normal mode is described as "For series beginners" aka for newcomers to the Fire Emblem franchise aka easy mode.

If a first person shooter on easy mode only spawns powerful bad guys behind you after explicitly telling you, but on normal mode they give you no indication whatsoever of them spawning behind you, you can't just say "you're supposed to play easy mode first to get the full enjoyment of normal mode". You'd call it bad design.

Stop being bad and always prepare for possible reinforcements then?

[shadowofchaos]

That's complete bullshit. Even in the game, normal mode is described as "For series beginners" aka for newcomers to the Fire Emblem franchise aka easy mode.

If a first person shooter on easy mode only spawns powerful bad guys behind you after explicitly telling you, but on normal mode they give you no indication whatsoever of them spawning behind you, you can't just say "you're supposed to play easy mode first to get the full enjoyment of normal mode". You'd call it bad design.

The bosses in Hard and Lunatic Mode have dialogue to tell you they spawn.

Usually a full turn or more.

Now, on Normal Mode, it's that AND they spawn on the Player Phase.

[Constable Reggie]

Please read 47948201's post.

@shadowofchaos they don't tell you that in the later chapters. That was my point.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[PKL]

Please read 47948201's post.

@shadowofchaos they don't tell you that in the later chapters. That was my point.

What later chapters do you mean? iirc, even up to Chapter 23, Validar kinda foreshadows it. (I dont actually know if they come out, but I guess there are because of his dialogue)

[shadowofchaos]

I don't remember if they Ambush Spawn on normal mode in the later chapters.

Because if they spawn on the Player Phase, there's really no complain there even if they don't tell you.

[Constable Reggie]

We're talking about hard mode. None of this applies to normal.

[Duff Ostrich]

I've always defended enemy phase reinforcements, and you can bet that I've been victim to it several times so far (on hard/classic).

On *most* stages it is very obvious where reinforcements can come from. On indoor maps the stairs exist to indicate to you an enemy may spawn there (or escape, if he's a thief). The same goes for forts outdoors. Anyone with any FE experience knows that enemies can spawn at the edges of a map, and the maps are generally big enough that the player can reasonably prepare for it.

Now, there are some instances where it may border on unfair. The tree stage (chapter 16, I think) is both small and open, with 25 spd spear/silver lance falcoknights appearing all over the place. This made it impossible for me to position certain units safely ahead of time and because of that I was required to pair up Olivia, and I didn't even deploy Mariabelle. The totally random dark mage reinforcements in the latter stages of Thracia would have been unfair if they had any stats at all, and there are a few stages in Sword of Seals where powerful cavalry reinforcements arrive untelegraphed at the beginning of the stage. But again, it only takes one restart to learn the lesson that your back line needs to be prepared. Awakening at least often tells the player that reinforcements are on their way, and frankly that's forewarning enough.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Duff Ostrich

[shadowofchaos]

Well, your point was that it's for series "newcomers" on Normal Mode.

As an experienced FE player, you should know that Ambush Spawning WILL happen on Hard mode and up. No matter how much you call it BS, as an "experienced" player, you should know that. It's standard for Hard Mode. And they even WARN you in earlier chapters.

If you want to enjoy the story without any worries at all, play Normal Mode. It's "Normal" to, despite that description that it's for newcomers.

[PKL]

The tree is easy enough to just rush through before any reinforcements come though. I honestly didnt know falcos spawned there o_O

[Constable Reggie]

Well, your point was that it's for series "newcomers" on Normal Mode.

As an experienced FE player, you should know that Ambush Spawning WILL happen on Hard mode and up. No matter how much you call it BS, as an "experienced" player, you should know that. It's standard for Hard Mode. And they even WARN you in earlier chapters.

If you want to enjoy the story without any worries at all, play Normal Mode. It's "Normal" to, despite that description that it's for newcomers.

I only brought up normal mode to refute the idea that you're supposed to play normal mode first if you want to enjoy hard. I wasn't using it as an example of unfair difficulty.

I never said ambush spawning in itself is a bad thing. The way Awakening handles it in certain chapters, however, is. Most other Fe's make it fairly obvious or managable where the enemies are going to come from. Awakening's certain chapters do not.

It doesn't matter what the mode is called. If it's described as for beginners, it's basically an easy mode. Look at Alan Wake if you want another example.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Duff Ostrich]

The tree is easy enough to just rush through before any reinforcements come though. I honestly didnt know falcos spawned there o_O

I think they show up one turn after the reinforcements from the bottom of the stage, if you happened to see those, and they show up two turns or so after the boss announces them. There are (iirc, because its been a couple days) six reinforcements that cover well over half of the traversible squares. I got burned on my first attempt and on my second I managed it, but my efficiency is probably pretty bad.