Question about the future and ending

[CinderSkye]

If they hadn't talked, how would Basilio have had any idea of the plan to exposit it...? He spoke of it having been hatched in the "last few days" and there's a small time jump between the end of Valm and the beginning of the third act.

[Acacia Sgt]

Well, it's more assumption, but it could be doable to keep in touch with someone feigning death with others being none the wiser. Like, leaving hidden messages in key spots for the other to pick up and vice versa.

If all else fails, we can just chalk it up to Validar overestimating his spies...

[CinderSkye]

I didn't mean literally "talk." There did have to be some sort of communication, is what I'm affirming.

[BlueLeafeon]

Well, it's more assumption, but it could be doable to keep in touch with someone feigning death with others being none the wiser. Like, leaving hidden messages in key spots for the other to pick up and vice versa.

If all else fails, we can just chalk it up to Validar overestimating his spies...

or his spies not doing what they should be doing and lying about it, lol

[Bronnichiwa]

My question is: if the awakening timeline avatar lost her memories because of the original timeline avatar/grima trying to possess her body, how did original!avatar meet Chrom? Killing Chrom seems necessary for the Future of Despair timeline to take place, but it's also stated by Lucina in the storyline that Chrom is killed by someone close to him, which was revealed to be the avatar. But, without the original!avatar going back in time, there's no way for the cycle to start, although we prove in the game that time can be permanently changed by going back into the past, meaning that there must have been an original timeline before the avatar met Grima.

Also, what happened to the future children? Original!Avatar seemed to imply that if her past was changed she'd be erased, so wouldn't the same go for the future children? Does that mean that all their endings, ad all of the paired endings are their non future of despair selves that grew up with a normal family?

[Fateborn]

My question is: if the awakening timeline avatar lost her memories because of the original timeline avatar/grima trying to possess her body, how did original!avatar meet Chrom? Killing Chrom seems necessary for the Future of Despair timeline to take place, but it's also stated by Lucina in the storyline that Chrom is killed by someone close to him, which was revealed to be the avatar. But, without the original!avatar going back in time, there's no way for the cycle to start, although we prove in the game that time can be permanently changed by going back into the past, meaning that there must have been an original timeline before the avatar met Grima.

Also, what happened to the future children? Original!Avatar seemed to imply that if her past was changed she'd be erased, so wouldn't the same go for the future children? Does that mean that all their endings, ad all of the paired endings are their non future of despair selves that grew up with a normal family?

I'm a little confused by this.

But the thing is.

The original timeline is where Lucina is currently from.

The Avatar killed Chrom because Grima possessed Avatar with Fire Emblem's full power, which didn't happen because in the altered timeline, Avatar had Basillo produces fake and switched them around.

Avatar was able to keep their sanity because of it and held back on the strike.

It's unknown on what happened to the original timeline characters, perhaps they simply lived on in the new timeline.

Or they returned to the Original timeline which is safe now because Grima left that world and perished in another.

Avatar only got erased because Avatar killed Grima with their own blow since they're the same person.

So if the Altered Lucina dies, Original Lucina will dies too.

Either that, or it's just implied for Avatar and Grima since Avatar is created from Grima's blood, Lucina and the children aren't.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Ubel Engel

[Masked_Hunter1825]

Theres like 4 confirmed timelines so far. Original, current, Morgan's and Future of Despair where Lucina stayed in the future. About what happened to the original characters, it is implied they all died and might've been revived as Risen/Warlords along with

the real Marth.

Original Timeline: Everyone was killed except the children characters who came back to the past.

Current Timeline: Altered the moment Lucina and Grima came to the past, Avatar was able to outsmart Validar due to Grima.

Morgan's Timeline: Only seems to happen when married to a 2nd gen. Despite trying to change their future, they fail and the Original timeline's events occur.

Future of Despair Timeline: No one goes to the past. But this changes depending on if you married a 2nd gen char, in which case it shares some events with Morgan's Timeline.

Future of Despair should help clear up any time travel.. things. I'm not 100% sure on my timelines.

[Onestep]

It's unknown on what happened to the original timeline characters, perhaps they simply lived on in the new timeline.

Or they returned to the Original timeline which is safe now because Grima left that world and perished in another.

It's made pretty clear that they all stay in the present. With the possible exception of an unpaired Lucina, that is.

[NeonZ]

My question is: if the awakening timeline avatar lost her memories because of the original timeline avatar/grima trying to possess her body, how did original!avatar meet Chrom?

Well, the avatar didn't walk to that place by being unconscious. They likely just met there but without the whole amnesia bit.

It's made pretty clear that they all stay in the present. With the possible exception of an unpaired Lucina, that is.

Lucina paired with Owain also leaves in a world hopping journey, although with Owain alongside her.

Also, what happened to the future children? Original!Avatar seemed to imply that if her past was changed she'd be erased, so wouldn't the same go for the future children?

Original avatar seemed to be wrong about that, considering everything else. Like mentioned before, Lucina's ending can even mention the possibility of her traveling back to her original future. Changing the past doesn't change the future, Grimma just assumed wrongly that it'd do that when he first went there. He likely never time traveled before, and he wasn't the source of the time traveling, so a misunderstanding from him is understandable. On the other hand, look at Lucina's support with Chrom, she seems to know that there'll be two of her if she stays in the present. She won't disappear and be replaced by herself from the "saved" timeline.

[Gangrel]

Ah. Yeah. Instead, they went for "we're going to make them think they've lost the game again!"

I think they were really aiming for pure horror and suspense with that scene. Or at least, I know that entire chapter had me going o_o "No I don't want to game over again DX" until Basillo showed up. After having played Star Ocean 3, I had felt like this game was going to be a similar plot--you're losing the whole game (despite winning) and even the ending is a loss on your part. So the game really had me hooked. XD "THIS GAME WILL HAVE A HAPPY ENDING RIGHT?! D8"

True, true. They wanted you to feel like Lucina did, I guess.

It would have been funny if the creators made it so that the cutscene happens the same way every time you get to chapter 23; and you have to restart the game in an endless cycle, never being able to change anything, just for the satisfaction of trolling us all; the players

[algae]

It's unknown on what happened to the original timeline characters, perhaps they simply lived on in the new timeline.

Or they returned to the Original timeline which is safe now because Grima left that world and perished in another.

Semi-related: I've been wondering for a while about what would happen if Grima was sealed. Would he still be able to revive after the seal wears off without a proper "vessel"? Considering that the Grimleal is more or less destroyed and the bloodline that they worked so hard to dilute isn't pure anymore (Validar is dead, most likely Avatar's mother is as well, and Avatar married someone else, possibly someone related to Naga).

[Onestep]

Semi-related: I've been wondering for a while about what would happen if Grima was sealed. Would he still be able to revive after the seal wears off without a proper "vessel"? Considering that the Grimleal is more or less destroyed and the bloodline that they worked so hard to dilute isn't pure anymore (Validar is dead, most likely Avatar's mother is as well, and Avatar married someone else, possibly someone related to Naga).

Holy Blood seems to be remarkably durable. Think of Lissa, who can marry several characters, including the Avatar and yet Owain will always have the Mark that shows he has Naga Major.

The only way I can honestly see it fading entirely in the 'Chrom Seals Grima' ending is if the Avatar were to marry one of the non-human characters, particularly one of the manaketes. And even then it might not be a case of fading away, so much as it being useless within them due to the fact that they're dragons and thus presumably mostly immune to the whole possession thing.

But honestly, I don't see Grima coming back anytime soon. Barring another dark magic wielding madman gathering a large cult of improbably talented killers and starting the whole process up again that is. Then again, that seems to happen an awful lot in Akaneia.

[I.M. Gei]

There's another thing I was wondering about the FoD timeline: how did Morgan get roped into fighting for Grima (two of them, at that)?

[Acacia Sgt]

There's another thing I was wondering about the FoD timeline: how did Morgan get roped into fighting for Grima (two of them, at that)?

Well, don't know about why there's two of them, but from what I've seen of Morgan, s/he comes as very devoted and loyal to the Avatar. Perhaps is due to that?

[shadykid]

Barring another dark magic wielding madman gathering a large cult of improbably talented killers and starting the whole process up again that is.

welcome to the plot of every Fire Emblem game ever!

(well, minus the dark magic wielding part)

[I.M. Gei]

Well, don't know about why there's two of them, but from what I've seen of Morgan, s/he comes as very devoted and loyal to the Avatar. Perhaps is due to that?

Yeah, I can see that (Morgan is every bit as devoted to Avatar as Lucina to Chrom). I'm just kind of puzzled by how Morgan's sibling (if applicable) will mention that they protected Morgan because they were the last family; did Grima just rob the cradle in the FoD timeline or something?

[algae]

Yeah, I can see that (Morgan is every bit as devoted to Avatar as Lucina to Chrom). I'm just kind of puzzled by how Morgan's sibling (if applicable) will mention that they protected Morgan because they were the last family; did Grima just rob the cradle in the FoD timeline or something?

It's even stranger if Morgan is Chrom's kid, and in their A-support he remembers his father's face. Perhaps the events of the other timeline(s) varied a lot more than we think they did.

Time travel at its finest.

[NeonZ]

I don't think the Future of Despair situation with Morgan mirrors the one from Lucina's timeline. The support convos, if Morgan has a sibling, make it clear that they were together, not fighting against each other as enemies. Also, the Avatar betrayal and Chrom's death happen years later in the original timeline, considering how Lucina was old enough to be trained by Chrom before he died.

[Sine Diego]

Here's my interpretation on this whole timeline thing, with the information that's available to me:

The Morgan from Lucina's future? Future Grima killed him/her before s/he could take her trip through the time portal, and he then hopped in instead of him/her. Everyone assumes that the Morgan encountered later on is form their future, and be none the wiser.

The Morgan that ends up in the ruins to be recruited? S/he's from the Future of Despair (hereby referred to as F.O.D.) S/he was sent back after the Shepherds took out F.O.D. Grima, but his/her mind was deliberately erased and had fake memories placed in him/her by Naga so that s/he'll have a new lease on life. So, in a sense, his/her appearance at the Ruins of Time basically seals the Shepherd's victory in the F.O.D.

As for the opposite-gendered Morgan that also showed up in the Future of Despair? I have no clue whatsoever. My little fan theory is that the other Morgan had a similar memory change and time trip that the normal Morgan goes through. However, not only does this other Morgan get sent much further back in time than intended, but ended up on a completely different continent. Like, say... Elibe.

As for how the F.O.D. occurred in the first place?

My little theory is that the timeline branches at the end of the game, when you get to choose who deals the final blow to Grima. If the Avatar offs Grima, we have Branch 1: the Good Future. Grima's dead for good, the Avatar is brought back in due time (i'm guessing a year at most, due to how little Chrom and Lissa have aged at the ending cutscene) and they all live happily ever after

If Chrom offs Grima instead, we have Branch 2: the F.O.D. Grima simply goes to sleep once again. However, since the Avatar still bears the Mark of Grima on his/her hand, that means s/he's still capable of being possessed. And since the Fire Emblem is now at full strength, it can be reasonably assumed that the remnants of the Grimleal could steal the Emblem away years later and successfully redo the awakening ritual at the Dragon Table. Grima awakens once again, successfully ambushes and kills our adult heroes (including the amnesiac Morgan, thus creating a stable time loop in that regard), and the two Morgans (which were born at this point) joins up with Grima since they still love dear old dad/mom despite being possessed and help the dragon find the children that escaped the initial slaughter, thus leading into the three DLC chapters.

Watch all this theorizing be flushed down the drain once the F.O.D. chapters be translated and released to the rest of the world. :D

Edited February 26, 2013 by Sine Diego

[BlueLeafeon]

Here's my interpretation on this whole timeline thing, with the information that's available to me:

The Morgan from Lucina's future? Future Grima killed him/her before s/he could take her trip through the time portal, and he then hopped in instead of him/her. Everyone assumes that the Morgan encountered later on is form their future, and be none the wiser.

The Morgan that ends up in the ruins to be recruited? S/he's from the Future of Despair (hereby referred to as F.O.D.) S/he was sent back after the Shepherds took out F.O.D. Grima, but his/her mind was deliberately erased and had fake memories placed in him/her by Naga so that s/he'll have a new lease on life. So, in a sense, his/her appearance at the Ruins of Time basically seals the Shepherd's victory in the F.O.D.

As for the opposite-gendered Morgan that also showed up in the Future of Despair? I have no clue whatsoever. My little fan theory is that the other Morgan had a similar memory change and time trip that the normal Morgan goes through. However, not only does this other Morgan get sent much further back in time than intended, but ended up on a completely different continent. Like, say... Elibe.

As for how the F.O.D. occurred in the first place?

My little theory is that the timeline branches at the end of the game, when you get to choose who deals the final blow to Grima. If the Avatar offs Grima, we have Branch 1: the Good Future. Grima's dead for good, the Avatar is brought back in due time (i'm guessing a year at most, due to how little Chrom and Lissa have aged at the ending cutscene) and they all live happily ever after

If Chrom offs Grima instead, we have Branch 2: the F.O.D. Grima simply goes to sleep once again. However, since the Avatar still bears the Mark of Grima on his/her hand, that means s/he's still capable of being possessed. And since the Fire Emblem is now at full strength, it can be reasonably assumed that the remnants of the Grimleal could steal the Emblem away years later and successfully redo the awakening ritual at the Dragon Table. Grima awakens once again, successfully ambushes and kills our adult heroes (including the amnesiac Morgan, thus creating a stable time loop in that regard), and the two Morgans (which were born at this point) joins up with Grima since they still love dear old dad/mom despite being possessed and help the dragon find the children that escaped the initial slaughter, thus leading into the three DLC chapters.

Watch all this theorizing be flushed down the drain once the F.O.D. chapters be translated and released to the rest of the world. :D

This theory makes the most sense, IMO. But yeah, watch NoA screw things up. XD

[Onestep]

Here's my interpretation on this whole timeline thing, with the information that's available to me:

The Morgan from Lucina's future? Future Grima killed him/her before s/he could take her trip through the time portal, and he then hopped in instead of him/her. Everyone assumes that the Morgan encountered later on is form their future, and be none the wiser.

The Morgan that ends up in the ruins to be recruited? S/he's from the Future of Despair (hereby referred to as F.O.D.) S/he was sent back after the Shepherds took out F.O.D. Grima, but his/her mind was deliberately erased and had fake memories placed in him/her by Naga so that s/he'll have a new lease on life. So, in a sense, his/her appearance at the Ruins of Time basically seals the Shepherd's victory in the F.O.D.

As for the opposite-gendered Morgan that also showed up in the Future of Despair? I have no clue whatsoever. My little fan theory is that the other Morgan had a similar memory change and time trip that the normal Morgan goes through. However, not only does this other Morgan get sent much further back in time than intended, but ended up on a completely different continent. Like, say... Elibe.

As for how the F.O.D. occurred in the first place?

My little theory is that the timeline branches at the end of the game, when you get to choose who deals the final blow to Grima. If the Avatar offs Grima, we have Branch 1: the Good Future. Grima's dead for good, the Avatar is brought back in due time (i'm guessing a year at most, due to how little Chrom and Lissa have aged at the ending cutscene) and they all live happily ever after

If Chrom offs Grima instead, we have Branch 2: the F.O.D. Grima simply goes to sleep once again. However, since the Avatar still bears the Mark of Grima on his/her hand, that means s/he's still capable of being possessed. And since the Fire Emblem is now at full strength, it can be reasonably assumed that the remnants of the Grimleal could steal the Emblem away years later and successfully redo the awakening ritual at the Dragon Table. Grima awakens once again, successfully ambushes and kills our adult heroes (including the amnesiac Morgan, thus creating a stable time loop in that regard), and the two Morgans (which were born at this point) joins up with Grima since they still love dear old dad/mom despite being possessed and help the dragon find the children that escaped the initial slaughter, thus leading into the three DLC chapters.

Watch all this theorizing be flushed down the drain once the F.O.D. chapters be translated and released to the rest of the world. :D

That's assuming there is a Morgan in Lucina's future. If you marry a second gen, then... oh. That would work too. You just skip the first part.

[Sine Diego]

That's assuming there is a Morgan in Lucina's future. If you marry a second gen, then... oh. That would work too. You just skip the first part.

I considered that as well, but like you said, if Morgan is a child of a second gen, then simply disregard the first line, since the rest works out. Also, if you look closely enough at Morgan's supports with the non-sibling second gens, they never seem to mention having met or knowing Morgan prior to the trip through time. This allows Morgan to be the child of any of the characters without leaving some big plotholes.

[Senario]

There is one thing this game hasn't quite made clear, and I've played it twice.

What compelled the future avatar to become Grima? From the looks of the pre-prologue chapter and the cutscenes, the avatar was just as firm in his choice to oppose Validar as (s)he is in the main game's scenes...so how did (s)he come to choose sacrificing him/herself to become Grima?

A numerous plethora of reasons.

First of all, the future avatar had all his memories in tact. None of them were missing so his life was probably that of being warned by his mother of the grimleal and how they are the bogeyman. Not knowing that he could get all powerful. In addition to this his friendship with Chrom is not as strong as it was in the future timeline where due to a multitude of failures, I can only assume that only Chrom and Avatar made it to Validar. First of all the fire emblem is stolen the night Emmeryn died and Chrom took a serious wound.

Without all the bonds and people that he needed to fight for, it was a simple matter to dominate his mind and betray+kill Chrom. Not to mention the current timeline Avatar had no memory and no background history. He knew one thing, and one thing only. That his friends and allies were Chrom's group, and if he lost them he would lose everything and everybody. All of the relations that give his life meaning after losing his memory.

Future Avatar has problems in that warned of great evil with power, has bonds but they aren't that strong so his will is weakened, and after eventually giving in he realizes how strong he actually becomes and gets drunk on power.

My theory. In short, Grima's first mistake is trying to merge with current timeline Avatar and erasing his memories.