Gangrel VS. Walhart

[Gangrel]

So, someone brought up the idea of a Gangrel VS. Walhart topic, and I decided to make it

because I'm not going to let it slide

Here's my good and bad thoughts about each character:

Gangrel - Gangrel's country was devastated from Emmeryn's father's war against Plegia. Gangrel should have had every right to blame them for it, but not to turn into evil and start a war. Gangrel was made King, and never had to earn it from bloodshed, unlike Walhart. He should not have turned to darkness like he did and do it through force. He also wanted to unite against Valm.

Walhart - Walhart had no major emotion reason for starting a war, other than uniting to stop Grima, and that's basically the same as Gangrel uniting against Valm. He didn't have a tough childhood or anything, and doesn't have any right to inflict it on others. He has had to earn his place through bloodshed. The good thing about him though, is that, unlike Gangrel, he did not give into darkness in his conquest, and it earned him undenying confidence and pride.

That said, who do you think is a better villian? And please don't say anything like,

"They both should not have been brought back from the dead." or, "I do not have an opinion on the spotpass characters."

As that does not contribute to the topic.

Thanks for your time.

[shadykid]

Walhart is a better villain, Gangrel is a better character

edit: damn first post is good

Edited March 6, 2013 by shadykid

[Melonhead]

I like Gangrel as a character, but Walhart made a good villian, and seemed like a threat to Ylisse as I was playing. In the end, he wants to unify the world, same as Chrom, but did it in the wrong way, through bloodshed.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Melonhead

[Mighty Kamina]

I personally felt that Gangrel was a better written character, but I also that Walhart was a decent enemy.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Zelos

[Emblem Lugh]

Both boring. Walhart hasbetter armor.

[Darth_Lavos]

I find your lack of Validar disturbing.

[shadykid]

I find your lack of Validar disturbing.

hey now, where's Grima

he'd get 0 votes lol

[Folt]

Let's see, I like Gangrel as both a character and villain, but I feel Walhart is the better villain.

[GeekyDad]

Gangrel is a convoluted, ridiculous character. Walhart is actually fairly interesting, especially considering his ultimate intent. Gangrel is an embarrassment to villains. He would, however, fit in nicely in an episode of Scooby Doo.

[Miscellany]

Well, they don't really get into much detail on how Plegia picks its kings; for all we know, Gangrel did it same way Ashnard did: by murdering everyone ahead of him, which would be quite a bloody way to come to power.

I do think Gangrel is a more complicated character than Walhart, though the latter is the more sympathetic villian. It would have helped a lot for them to mention Gangrel's backstory in-game.

[S_Cero]

Well, they don't really get into much detail on how Plegia picks its kings; for all we know, Gangrel did it same way Ashnard did: by murdering everyone ahead of him, which would be quite a bloody way to come to power.

I do think Gangrel is a more complicated character than Walhart, though the latter is the more sympathetic villian. It would have helped a lot for them to mention Gangrel's backstory in-game.

Well I think Ricken's support with Henry sort of explains why they didn't. They have you killing them and they don't want you to feel sympathetic for them.

Well I find Walhart the better villain because he poses more of a threat. Thou the only reason he is a villain is because he conflicts with your ideals. Gangrel I find is the better character, sort of.

[Integrity]

Walhart's cooler and I'm superficial.

[Gone2Ground]

Allow me to simplify this argument for you:

We have the man who is basically the Joker...versus a giant lobster who is killing people to bring around peace. I like how Walhart is portrayed, but Gangrel is just...so...batshit crazy.

[Crimson Red]

Walhart. He feels more than just a villain of pure evil, whereas Gangrel feels like he's just there to cause shit, like the crap he did wasn't really justified IMO, and it definitely didn't feel like he was getting justice against Ylisse, it felt more like he was just to cause a storm

[Sublime Manic]

Gangrel by miles for being more developed. The only thing remarkable about Walhart to me is the extent to which he seems both generic and boring.

[riariadne]

Gangrel doesn't shout "Stand up and FIGHT" as one of his voiced lines so he can get the hell out

Also what Integrity said.

[Honestly Vitali]

Okay, I voted a while ago, but I guess I'll justify my reasons. I guess there might be a few spoilers, so I'll just mark the whole thing.

I voted Gangrel, who I also married, so I may be a bit biased, but I'll try to write this in a unbiased way.

I voted Gangrel.

Gangrel in an of himself, I feel, worked better as a villain. However, this also ends up fight between arcs as well as characters.

You may think that that's unfair, and that's not what I question is asked (I mean, who would really think the Warm Arc was better than the Plegia one?). But I think it's vital to this question.

I really liked Gangrel. He worked well on a lot of levels. As a character, he provided a perfect foil to both Chrom and Emmeryn, and he honestly had a really good "chemistry" (or bad I suppose) with them. They felt like the worked together (no, not romantically because he's mine). He had a past to tie him in with the siblings from the start, and his motives were believable: he just wanted revenge for what Chrom's father did to them, and most people in Plegia didn't seem to disagree (well, everyone came to Emmeryn's execution -- the sacrifice thing I think is a different story because it was a sacrifice). Revenge, that others wanted, lead into his madness.

I just think he worked really well. He was always a force within his arc (that's why I think arc affects villain "worth"). You always knew you were going after him, he represented different ideals -- yes, he was crazy. But I think that worked really well. He had a strong connection to each of the main characters (killing Emmeryn (Chrom), kidnapping Maribelle (Lissa), hurting civilians (Emmeryn)) and always felt present.

It's also a plus for him that his arc ties nicely with Grima, so even after to kill him, you think back to him with Aversa.

Walhart... Walhart, Walhart, Walhart. He kinda got screwed by his arc. But he has problems of his own, too. I'll do those first.

(And I apologize, I can't seem to get this out of bold font...)

First of all, his motives. All he wanted to do was conquer the world. That's... It. He had a really big army. But he never really provided the personal threat that Gangrel did. I never could buy that "he's just Emmeryn, only violent!" thing. I just felt he didn't work with Chrom. They had no connection. Their connection came through -- and here's where it kills him -- Say'ri.

Oh, Say'ri. Easily the worth subplot in this game was the Say'ri and Yen'fey thing. It was bad. And that's what kills Walhart as a villain for me. His connection to Chrom was entirely based on Say'ri.

The "emotional impact" of that arc was Yen'fey's death. It wasn't directly caused by Walhart (which is another huge minus, because it makes him... Not do anything emotionally riling to make you hate him), and it... Well, sucked. Sorry to those who disagree, but I thought Yen'fey was about as interesting as a cardboard box.

It also hurts that his arc came after the time skip. It killed the tension, in my opinion. And the fact you fight him twice. I mean, die already.

So... In comparison, we have Gangrel, who has motives, a strong personal connection with the main characters, a high-tension emotional action, and a constant presence.

And we have Walhart, to whom you're trying to work his lame motives out from the middle-man Say'ri.

Sorry, as cool as "Stand up and fight!" is, it's not worth that, Walhart.

Gangrel wins, easily.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Valorous_Roland

[Folt]

I don't really care which one wins (I voted for Walhart btw, though I agree that Gangrel makes the early-game arc something to remember story-wise, in contrast to the weaker mid-game arc with Walhart), but I think that if Validar and Grima had been included in this poll, both of them would have lost to Gangrel and Walhart in my opinion.

[BlueLeafeon]

Walhart was hardly ever given any good screentime, until you fought him.

Gangrel did a far better job at making me hate his guts, so he's the better villain, IMO. (Yes, a 'good' villain to me is the one that makes me hate him.

Plus, Walhart has the 'I don't think I'm a god. I AM A GOD." cliche.

Edited March 7, 2013 by MagicLeafy

[Party Moth]

I want to vote Walhart for his Stalin-worthy breakdown of Robin's beliefs in Male Robin's B support, but in execution during the Valm arc (where it matters) he falls hard. Gangrel held a much stronger impact with hinting at his personal history with Chrom's father and the war with Ylisse as well as how it led him to making actions that hit the player much harder than anything Walhart's million man army could ever hope to muster.

My vote's going to Gangrel.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Duels at Dawn

[Folt]

Heh, you guys made me think about this a little more, and that made me change my vote to Gangrel.

[Oshimos]

I like Walhart much more as a character, but as far as actual villainy goes, Gangrel wins easily in my books. Walhart didn't really do very many 'villain' things. Like, yes, he lead an army against the good guys. Most of the evil things done in that arc, however, were performed by Excellus, not Walhart. Walhart just wants to be strong and rule by strength, and actually had good intentions. Gangrel, on the other hand, is hell-bent on revenge and enjoys the suffering of innocents.

[Frelia]

Okay, I voted a while ago, but I guess I'll justify my reasons. I guess there might be a few spoilers, so I'll just mark the whole thing.

I voted Gangrel, who I also married, so I may be a bit biased, but I'll try to write this in a unbiased way.

I voted Gangrel.

Gangrel in an of himself, I feel, worked better as a villain. However, this also ends up fight between arcs as well as characters.

You may think that that's unfair, and that's not what I question is asked (I mean, who would really think the Warm Arc was better than the Plegia one?). But I think it's vital to this question.

I really liked Gangrel. He worked well on a lot of levels. As a character, he provided a perfect foil to both Chrom and Emmeryn, and he honestly had a really good "chemistry" (or bad I suppose) with them. They felt like the worked together (no, not romantically because he's mine). He had a past to tie him in with the siblings from the start, and his motives were believable: he just wanted revenge for what Chrom's father did to them, and most people in Plegia didn't seem to disagree (well, everyone came to Emmeryn's execution -- the sacrifice thing I think is a different story because it was a sacrifice). Revenge, that others wanted, lead into his madness.

I just think he worked really well. He was always a force within his arc (that's why I think arc affects villain "worth"). You always knew you were going after him, he represented different ideals -- yes, he was crazy. But I think that worked really well. He had a strong connection to each of the main characters (killing Emmeryn (Chrom), kidnapping Maribelle (Lissa), hurting civilians (Emmeryn)) and always felt present.

It's also a plus for him that his arc ties nicely with Grima, so even after to kill him, you think back to him with Aversa.

Walhart... Walhart, Walhart, Walhart. He kinda got screwed by his arc. But he has problems of his own, too. I'll do those first.

(And I apologize, I can't seem to get this out of bold font...)

First of all, his motives. All he wanted to do was conquer the world. That's... It. He had a really big army. But he never really provided the personal threat that Gangrel did. I never could buy that "he's just Emmeryn, only violent!" thing. I just felt he didn't work with Chrom. They had no connection. Their connection came through -- and here's where it kills him -- Say'ri.

Oh, Say'ri. Easily the worth subplot in this game was the Say'ri and Yen'fey thing. It was bad. And that's what kills Walhart as a villain for me. His connection to Chrom was entirely based on Say'ri.

The "emotional impact" of that arc was Yen'fey's death. It wasn't directly caused by Walhart (which is another huge minus, because it makes him... Not do anything emotionally riling to make you hate him), and it... Well, sucked. Sorry to those who disagree, but I thought Yen'fey was about as interesting as a cardboard box.

It also hurts that his arc came after the time skip. It killed the tension, in my opinion. And the fact you fight him twice. I mean, die already.

So... In comparison, we have Gangrel, who has motives, a strong personal connection with the main characters, a high-tension emotional action, and a constant presence.

And we have Walhart, to whom you're trying to work his lame motives out from the middle-man Say'ri.

Sorry, as cool as "Stand up and fight!" is, it's not worth that, Walhart.

Gangrel wins, easily.

I want to vote Walhart for his Stalin-worthy breakdown of Robin's beliefs in Male Robin's B support, but in execution during the Valm arc (where it matters) he falls hard. Gangrel held a much stronger impact with hinting at his personal history with Chrom's father and the war with Ylisse as well as how it led him to making actions that hit the player much harder than anything Walhart's million man army could ever hope to muster.

My vote's going to Gangrel.

I did some thinking on this and after reading some of the posts in this thread especially the two above my vote goes to Gangrel. Gangrel has much more impact in the story and he overall he does very good as a villain. A lot of what Gangrel does are hard to forgive especially the Emmeryn's sacrifice scene and his reaction to it. But I do have to admit that he had a hard life and had to endure a country wide ethnic cleansing that was operated by Chrom's father. Due to wanting revenge Gangrel went insane which resulted in him making awful decisions that impacted everyone who was involved with him in some way. As much as I like Walhart I have admit that he that he falls hard in his own arc pretty bad and does not make as much of a impact as Gangrel did. Sorry Walhart.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Eevonee

[darkkfan]

So, someone brought up the idea of a Gangrel VS. Walhart topic, and I decided to make it

because I'm not going to let it slide

Here's my good and bad thoughts about each character:

Gangrel - Gangrel's country was devastated from Emmeryn's father's war against Plegia. Gangrel should have had every right to blame them for it, but not to turn into evil and start a war. Gangrel was made King, and never had to earn it from bloodshed, unlike Walhart. He should not have turned to darkness like he did and do it through force. He also wanted to unite against Valm.

Walhart - Walhart had no major emotion reason for starting a war, other than uniting to stop Grima, and that's basically the same as Gangrel uniting against Valm. He didn't have a tough childhood or anything, and doesn't have any right to inflict it on others. He has had to earn his place through bloodshed. The good thing about him though, is that, unlike Gangrel, he did not give into darkness in his conquest, and it earned him undenying confidence and pride.

That said, who do you think is a better villian? And please don't say anything like,

"They both should not have been brought back from the dead." or, "I do not have an opinion on the spotpass characters."

As that does not contribute to the topic.

Thanks for your time.

Haha I'm glad to see you took my suggestion about making a gangrel vs. walhart topic seriously!

I am somewhat shocked by the results. Apparently the Gangrel supports must be amazing because from what I've seen of the characters in game there is no way Gangrel should be getting this much love. The Walhart posters so far in this topic have brought up some of my points and they were very well put.

Since I've already had this argument multiple times I'll just post links to my statements of my views unless anything new comes up. Primarily here: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=37708&view=findpost&p=2290119

But also, this whole topic (only 2 pages): http://serenesforest...1 is worth reading especially since that's where the idea for this topic originally came from.

Walhart had no major emotion reason for starting a war, other than uniting to stop Grima

I would say there's a lot more to it than that. Walhart is opposed to the idea of gods in general. He believes in the power of mankind to govern his own fate. That is what he is fighting for IMO. It fits in nicely with the "we can control our own destiny" theme in this game.

Also, I would say that we should clarify what you mean by "better villain" because if we mean who is better written than that is what we were arguing about in the other topic. However, it seems that some people are interpreting "better villain" as meaning who is "more evil" and voting for Gangrel and that really just proves my point that he is less likable.

I should probably change my name to "Walhart" since yours is just "Gangrel" Edit: Done

Edited March 7, 2013 by Walhart

[Folt]

As far as we've argued and spoken on this thread, it's seems that the conclusion is that Gangrel as a villain is one of the factors as to why the earlygame is quite strong story-wise, and probably the strongest part story-wise of Awakening too. He is effective, he hits all the right spots to make you hate him, and that essentially makes you care about him (as in "FUCK YOU GANGREL! YOU'RE GOING DOOOOWN, YOU BASTARD!" as opposed to the more diffused "Ooh! a powerful boss! Better go with caution here..." emotion-wise). Such villains tend to make you remember them even into the endgame, and that made me quite surprised when I found out he would be one of the recruitable secret characters in the game. Walhart, while powerful, doesn't really have the same impact there, so you're more likely to feel the latter when you finally go up against him.

But hey, either of them are better villains than Validar in my book, and Grima as well. (which makes me very happy that you can recruit both of them and pit them against the Fell Dragon. <3)

Edited March 7, 2013 by Folt