Kitoari Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Well, it depends. A unit with HP too low needs to fight at range or be careful lest they die. A unit with SPD too low runs the risk of not doubling and either needing a brave weapon or being capable of only doubling slower enemies. Course, these have direct benefits and penalties on combat which results in a HUGE problem as opposed to 'he can't move as fast so he has less/no chances to cut a turncount, so he's lower'. Better movement isn't good solely for LTC. One of the worst things about trainees/armor knights is their low movement. It might be more important in an LTC, but it's not like movement doesn't matter at all. (unless turtle) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwall Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Well, it depends. A unit with HP too low needs to fight at range or be careful lest they die. A unit with SPD too low runs the risk of not doubling and either needing a brave weapon or being capable of only doubling slower enemies. Course, these have direct benefits and penalties on combat which results in a HUGE problem as opposed to 'he can't move as fast so he has less/no chances to cut a turncount, so he's lower'. Under the tier lists' assumption of brisk play, slow-moving units with combat potential won't necessarily see combat at all if we're also fielding fast-moving units with combat potential. I would certainly count that problem among the "direct benefits and penalties on combat" of which you speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I can't make sense of your statement. My example assumes they save an equal amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) Okay, let's make this clearer. Thany saves 50 turns by carrying units. Marcia saves 50 turns by both carrying and killing. To make this example simpler, let's say both of them can never die. Why is Marcia's turn saving preferable over Thany's? If Thany had not existed, 50 turns would have been lost. If Marcia had not existed, 50 turns would have been lost. The only difference is that Marcia does not rely on other units all the time, whereas Thany does. But why should we not give Thany an equal amount of points? What we should instead be doing is giving the units Thany carries more points. Combat for its own sake has nothing to do with tier lists. Because you're counting it twice. If Thany needs Rutger to exist in order to save every single one of those 50 turns, then she must share part of the credit. Or, alternatively, you could say that because Rutger is not assumed to be in play always, then Thany is only saving those 50 turns some of the time. Both are good logical routes to the same desired outcome: that a unit that relies on specific other units to make their contribution to play is "less good" than a unit that does not rely on those units to make an equal contribution to play. Well, it depends. A unit with HP too low needs to fight at range or be careful lest they die. A unit with SPD too low runs the risk of not doubling and either needing a brave weapon or being capable of only doubling slower enemies. Course, these have direct benefits and penalties on combat which results in a HUGE problem as opposed to 'he can't move as fast so he has less/no chances to cut a turncount, so he's lower'. It's a huge problem with ANY 'measure by proxy' system. While you may be able to get accurate readings, there may also be other things unrelated to the thing you're trying to measure affecting the outcome. I don't follow how not 1-rounding a given enemy is a "HUGE problem", if apparently it's perfectly acceptable to just take an extra turn to kill them. Edited April 25, 2013 by Anouleth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 · Hidden by Florete, April 25, 2013 - No reason given Hidden by Florete, April 25, 2013 - No reason given Well, it depends. A unit with HP too low needs to fight at range or be careful lest they die. A unit with SPD too low runs the risk of not doubling and either needing a brave weapon or being capable of only doubling slower enemies. Course, these have direct benefits and penalties on combat which results in a HUGE problem as opposed to 'he can't move as fast so he has less/no chances to cut a turncount, so he's lower'. It's a huge problem with ANY 'measure by proxy' system. While you may be able to get accurate readings, there may also be other things unrelated to the thing you're trying to measure affecting the outcome. I don't follow how not 1-rounding a given enemy is a "HUGE problem", if apparently it's perfectly acceptable to just take an extra turn to kill them. Link to comment
Chiki Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Anouleth, my tier lists award units based on three things: 1. Where they cut turns and add to reliability 2. How many turns they cut 3. How reliable they are to use According to these criteria, Thany and Marcia have equal credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitoari Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Anouleth, my tier lists award units based on three things: 1. Where they cut turns and add to reliability 2. How many turns they cut 3. How reliable they are to use According to these criteria, Thany and Marcia have equal credit. So, taking this into consideration, would the optimal user of Thany ferry be in the same tier? They save the exact same amount of turns that she does. Would they be above or below her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Except your assumption bears no relevance to a real low-turn playthrough of FE6 HM. Thany reliably (a word you stress) cuts turns in just one chapter, in which she's definitely not qualified to offer any assistence with the bosskill. Rescuing somebody and then dropping them next turn is about as reliable as it gets, but in specific context Thany with average stats for whatever her level may be at any point fails to deal okay damage or protect herself from enemy attacks. The Archers in chapter 9, for example are placed in such a manner that Thany doesn't really have any land to end her turn on without getting into their range, and there are Mercs and Fighters nearby too, so Thany ends up functioning as a Clarine without healing but with some horrible chip damage who doesn't mind forests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Anouleth, my tier lists award units based on three things: 1. Where they cut turns and add to reliability 2. How many turns they cut 3. How reliable they are to use According to these criteria, Thany and Marcia have equal credit. Well you can tier characters however you please. I'm simply explaining the logic that the other 99% of debaters on this site use, because you said that you "couldn't make sense" of it. I will explain it again if you still don't understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) Espinosa, you need to understand I'm discussing concepts. You always have the same complaint. But we have to test our concepts to their limits to see if they really are worth applying on things. Concepts are by definition universal, such as identity, and so on. Concepts concern what is physically possible but not logically possible. We could have 2 new games which have this issue. Yes, they would be in the same tier. Anouleth, putting your ad hominem aside, I can make sense of your claim but not dondon's. Edited April 25, 2013 by Olwen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwall Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) Anouleth, my tier lists award units based on three things: 1. Where they cut turns and add to reliability 2. How many turns they cut 3. How reliable they are to use According to these criteria, Thany and Marcia have equal credit. Under this framework, Thany and Marcia can't have equal credit if by "Thany cuts 50 turns" you mean "Thany is a character without whom I will need 50 more turns". Suppose by "cut" I mean "save relative to Redwall's previously established 9000-turn clear of FE 15". If we add up all characters' turncuts to the 9000-turn benchmark, we must, according to the definition of cut, result in a turn count that is exactly equal to your final turn count. Hence, assigning to each of Thany and the unit she's carrying those 50 turns would give you a cumulative turn count that is 50 turns off. To put Anouleth's/dondon's posts another way: Marcia needs one deployment spot (her own) to shave the 50 turns, while Thany requires two deployment spots (her own and another unit's) to save the 50 turns. Hence, Thany must be ranked lower than Marcia. Edited April 25, 2013 by Redwall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitoari Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Yes, they would be in the same tier. Would they be above or below Thany? There doesn't seem to be a real answer here, under those criteria, since they technically both do the exact same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) My definition of cutting turns is not the same. All I consider is how many turns would have been lost if they did not exist. Would they be above or below Thany? Below, as they require experience while Thany does not. This can affect the reliability of your units, albeit probably in a minuscule way. But even .0000001 is enough to put Thany above that unit. Edited April 25, 2013 by Olwen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwall Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 (edited) Why are you penalizing Marcia Rutger for needing help (EXP) without penalizing Thany for needing help (Rutger)? Edited April 26, 2013 by Redwall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted April 26, 2013 Author Share Posted April 26, 2013 Except your assumption bears no relevance to a real low-turn playthrough of FE6 HM. Thany reliably (a word you stress) cuts turns in just one chapter, in which she's definitely not qualified to offer any assistence with the bosskill. Rescuing somebody and then dropping them next turn is about as reliable as it gets, but in specific context Thany with average stats for whatever her level may be at any point fails to deal okay damage or protect herself from enemy attacks. The Archers in chapter 9, for example are placed in such a manner that Thany doesn't really have any land to end her turn on without getting into their range, and there are Mercs and Fighters nearby too, so Thany ends up functioning as a Clarine without healing but with some horrible chip damage who doesn't mind forests. Actually, she also cuts turns in chapter 2 by getting the armorslayer to Dieck for bosskilling. I think it would take quite a bit longer to get that to him otherwise. I don't remember enough about the other chapters, and granted Tate can do what Thany does (ferry Roy for seizing) while Miledy kills stuff or whatever after Tate appears. Oh right, don't forget chapter 5 where Thany carries Marcus over to the fort and then brings Rutger for bosskilling and stuff like that. And then there is rescuedropping over the wall in Echidna route otherwise you either have to break down a wall or go the long way. If you really want a quick run-down of what Thany does, check out dondon's playthroughs or if there is another one out there check it out. My definition of cutting turns is not the same. All I consider is how many turns would have been lost if they did not exist. Below, as they require experience while Thany does not. This can affect the reliability of your units, albeit probably in a minuscule way. But even .0000001 is enough to put Thany above that unit. I believe dondon has an issue with double-counting that you don't have. If Rutger didn't exist, Thany cuts nothing from chapter 8x. If Thany didn't exist, Rutger cuts nothing from chapter 8x. If you do it your way, they both get x turns credit for turnsaving. If you do it dondon's way, they get z + y = x where z is the turns Thany saves and y is the turns Rutger saves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwall Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 I believe dondon has an issue with double-counting that you don't have. If Rutger didn't exist, Thany cuts nothing from chapter 8x. If Thany didn't exist, Rutger cuts nothing from chapter 8x. If you do it your way, they both get x turns credit for turnsaving. If you do it dondon's way, they get z + y = x where z is the turns Thany saves and y is the turns Rutger saves. Olwen already addressed this in response to one of my posts (#110), which brought up the same concern. If you go to post #105 and replace "How many turns they cut" with "How many turns they help to cut", Olwen's rationale makes more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted April 26, 2013 Author Share Posted April 26, 2013 I didn't say there was anything wrong with Olwen's way. Just stating that his way double-counts. Double-counting isn't necessarily bad unless the tier list doesn't want to double-count. I just thought it was worth repeating that Olwen double-counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 (edited) I don't see an issue. Why are you penalizing Marcia for needing help (EXP) without penalizing Thany for needing help (Rutger)? The penalty is very very tiny, though. My definition of exp hog is any unit who takes total exp from a group. Marcia is an exp hog, but she barely compromises reliability. And the analogy doesn't exist. Thany does not take exp from a group and compromise reliability. Thany simply cuts turns and that's all she does. There's no way to penalize Thany because I simply can't penalize her with the criteria I use. And I don't see a logically necessary need to penalize Thany, so I don't see the need to change my tier list criteria. For example, Seth in FE8 is a trivial exp hog, whereas Titania in FE9 is a huge one. Note that I try to keep my definitions as simple as possible (my definitions differ from the public's, but that's because I think the public needlessly complicates the way they define terms in an ad hoc way). Exp hog is simply taking exp from other units. Cutting turns is simply considering the fastest possible chapter without them. Complexity is simply the total number of calculations required to beat a chapter. Reliability is simply how likely a unit is to survive. I think only those are necessary to tier units for FE games. Edited April 26, 2013 by Olwen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwall Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 (edited) Oh, whoops, I misread Kitoari's post; I should have written Rutger and not Marcia. But, OK, let's go along with your probabilistic justification. Let P(drop|EXP) be the conditional probability that Thany successfully executes the Rescue-drop sequence, given that Rutger has acquired the requisite EXP to shave the 50 turns. P(drop|EXP) = 1, obviously, since the player is not a klutz. Let P(EXP) be the probability that Rutger acquires the requisite EXP. You said it yourself (unless I am misreading your post): reliability goes down. Hence P(EXP) < 1. The probability that the 50 turns are saved is then going to be P(EXP) * P(drop|EXP) = P(EXP) < 1. What does this mean? If Rutger fails, so too does Thany. The probability that Thany succeeds in the 50-turn shave is P(EXP); the probability that Rutger succeeds in the 50-turn shave is also P(EXP). If you must double-count, then you're not doing it consistently since both Rutger and Thany are dependent on that exact same P(EXP) chance for the 50-turn shave. Honestly, I think it would be better if Rutger and Thany were tied at the exact same position. I don't think your tier list loses any explanatory power this way. edit: also it doesn't make sense to say "but Thany only gets penalized for P(drop|EXP) and Rutger only gets penalized for P(EXP)" since you've already decided not to separate the 50 turns into distinct contributions. Edited April 26, 2013 by Redwall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 I said a few posts ago that we're ignoring reliability in order to see if there's an issue with "double-counting" itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Actually, she also cuts turns in chapter 2 by getting the armorslayer to Dieck for bosskilling. I think it would take quite a bit longer to get that to him otherwise. I don't remember enough about the other chapters, and granted Tate can do what Thany does (ferry Roy for seizing) while Miledy kills stuff or whatever after Tate appears. Oh right, don't forget chapter 5 where Thany carries Marcus over to the fort and then brings Rutger for bosskilling and stuff like that. And then there is rescuedropping over the wall in Echidna route otherwise you either have to break down a wall or go the long way. If you really want a quick run-down of what Thany does, check out dondon's playthroughs or if there is another one out there check it out....If Rutger didn't exist, Thany cuts nothing from chapter 8x. If Thany didn't exist, Rutger cuts nothing from chapter 8x. If you do it your way, they both get x turns credit for turnsaving. If you do it dondon's way, they get z + y = x where z is the turns Thany saves and y is the turns Rutger saves. I recently started an LTC run in this game myself, documented up until chapter 16 (where I realised I could've stolen the Blue Gem from Narshen in my 6-turn and had a meltdown), to which I may come back some time: The turn counts could definitely be improved, as I see now since I've been getting better at FE, but yeah, I did field Thany nearly all the time - it's just she's nothing like Marcia or even Florina when it comes to saving turns. Getting the Armorslayer is a good point that I forgot about, but the boss could be killed with the Silver Lance as well (in 2 rounds or so), giving Marcus no WTD against the enemies attacking him. I also found that Armorslayer is something you want to hang on to, as it's better than the Hammer for armourkilling and you only get two until very late in the game, while the Silver Lance is replaceable by adjusting your tactics (it's bad for bosskilling because of low hit + no crit). In chapter 5, there is a much faster strategy that doesn't involve dropping Marcus on the fort (takes him forever to counter the enemies to death). The gate is opened in a specific way and your units just rush the most dangerous of the units there (the Mage and the Mercs), after which Rutger crits the boss and Roy seizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Okay, let's make this clearer.Thany saves 50 turns by carrying units.Marcia saves 50 turns by both carrying and killing.To make this example simpler, let's say both of them can never die.Why is Marcia's turn saving preferable over Thany's? If Thany had not existed, 50 turns would have been lost. If Marcia had not existed, 50 turns would have been lost. The only difference is that Marcia does not rely on other units all the time, whereas Thany does. But why should we not give Thany an equal amount of points? What we should instead be doing is giving the units Thany carries more points.Combat for its own sake has nothing to do with tier lists. Thany's turn-saving is dependent on other units and requires the player to go out, in advance, and say 'I am going to preform this rescue-drop here so that I can save turns'. Marcia's turn-saving is not dependent on that. A player can not deploy other units, not plan out in advance exactly how to use Marcia, and can still (ideally) save turns. The turns saved may not be as much as if she were rescue-dropping, but they can still be saved. Since Thany's rescue-drop requires pre-planning, a stated goal, and other units to be good in order for her to be good, she is the inferior unit. Better movement isn't good solely for LTC. One of the worst things about trainees/armor knights is their low movement. It might be more important in an LTC, but it's not like movement doesn't matter at all. (unless turtle) I'm not saying that it is. I'm saying it's unfair to damn a unit down to mid or bottom tiers despite great stats simply because they don't shave off turns, especially if that's because of movement simply because people assume the player is going to mount-storm the game. Remember, at least as it seems, turncounts are merely a measurable proxy for how good a unit is. That doesn't mean that they're always right. I don't follow how not 1-rounding a given enemy is a "HUGE problem", if apparently it's perfectly acceptable to just take an extra turn to kill them. If there was only one enemy on the map, you'd be right. There more than one unit though. Player units can die, either to wear or RNG screwage. Allowing enemies to live increases both wear and the chance of RNG screwage to happen. If the player unit can't counter every enemy, it increases the turns it takes to kill. If the player unit has multiple instances of combat (three boughts of three units as opposed to one bought of nine), it increases the turns needed to kill them. Failure to one-round is a very serious shortcoming barring the rest of the player team also not one-rounding reliably (still a shortcoming, but at least 'average') or the units main focus not being on combat (If Reyson could half enemy HP, but never kill them, that would be great even though I doubt anyone would deploy him for that over refresh) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 I think part of the issue is "assumed team"- our lists don't assume a 'perfect' team, so Thany cannot always take credit for those supposed amounts of turns you say she cuts. If we don't use Rutger, her value is extremely diminished. Compare this to a unit like Miledy, who does not require other specific units in play to achieve the same effect on turns. Now Thany is still pretty high because Rutger is often in play, but it's not as good as being independent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 (edited) Pre-planning? Lol. So does every other strategy. A stated goal? So does every other strategy. There is a sense which allows Thany to not be penalized. Simply consider the number of turns that would have been true without her. Then find the difference. Thany saves that many turns. My tier lists are LTC based, so Thany and Rutger, if they do cut, say, 50 turns, are 100% likely to be in play. Edited April 26, 2013 by Olwen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 (edited) yeah i figured out how to 4 turn chapter 5 too There is a sense which allows Thany to not be penalized. Simply consider the number of turns that would have been true without her. Then find the difference. Thany saves that many turns. but as stated already, this is dependent on who else is being used Edited April 26, 2013 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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