So do you think Robin is an Mary Sue?

[HeroMystic]

Must topics like these always appear?

Virion answered it better than I ever could.

[Bryan]

Sorta. Avatar is actually more of a Sue than Micaiah. (who toes the line.)

*twitch* Michaiah isn't a sue. She isn't a self insert character, which is the definition of a sue. Furthermore, she isn't good at everything, and just having one or two "powers" doesn't make her a perfect character.

Why can't this train of logic just die already?

[Honzou]

I can't find Robin as a Mary Sue for two reasons:

1. As much of the concept of self inserts go, Robin has his own personality (albeit not one that is very pronounced) and the most that the players do is simply play dress up and change his/her name along with the birthday and asset/flaw. Outside of that you really have no control on Robin's behavior save for the scene in Chapter 21 and 26 (I forgot the other one) but anything else we just see Robin act on his own since we don't get to choose what he/she says.

2. There are times that Robin has taken some desicions that may seem questionable to some like the sacrificing of ships to destroy Valm's fleet--this makes a lot of sense since they do admit they had way more than enough ships and supplies and all their soldiers fit nicely on their remaining ships--or when Yenfay is chasing them and Robin thinks it wise to lead them to a volcano, which is technically the only move that could be considered beyond stupid cause it is following the analogy of a cornered fox can be dangerous. While on a playing field that was basically breaking apart.

Aside from Robin being the only thing to that can kill Grima, the rest of the time either Robin perfoms greatly or is getting outplayed and boy those the 3rd arc has Robin outplayed half of the time. Freaking thought it turned into a game of Russian roullette.

The rest of the time and in the supports we see Robin being a god awful cook that is only better than Kjelle and Sully since Robin doesn't cause a massive outbreak in the camp. He/She gets sick, and poisoned. Also Harvest Scramble has a conversation were Robin is victim to one of Nowi's games which leads to a very funny situation if you remove Robin from the list of units in field.

So no, I don't think Robin is a Mary Sue (people should pay me to punch people that say Mary Sue), because if Robin were a Mary Sue in the terms of "self insert" character then I would be playing multiple choice game every time he/she had to answer something, or simply be forced to choose a way Robin would react to a given situation instead of watching a character develop on it's own.

On the topic of self insertion... Would anyone have the guts to admit if the WKC2 avatar would be considered a Mary Sue when he/she has no lines, relevance, or pressence outside of appearing in cutscenes and barely have his/her existence recognized by the cast count as a Mary Sue?

[singularity]

It's these kinds of topics that I wish Mary Sue tests for game characters exists. Because I could check on how Sue a character is.

Cordelia is more The Ace though

[Faye]

Nobody in Fire Emblem is a Mary Sue, not even Micaiah. ESPECIALLY not Micaiah. "OTL That is more irritating to hear, and anybody who honestly thinks Micaiah is a sue is an idiot.

[Stormcrown]

http://badwebcomics.wikidot.com/the-mary-sue-character

People should just read this. The entire concept doesn't translate into the interactive/video game realm very well.

In many cases, the Mary-Sue character is a thinly-veiled and very flattering self-insertion of the Author as a means to interact with his own universe and characters.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Stormcrown

[Loki Laufeyson]

*twitch* Michaiah isn't a sue. She isn't a self insert character, which is the definition of a sue. Furthermore, she isn't good at everything, and just having one or two "powers" doesn't make her a perfect character.

Why can't this train of logic just die already?

What part of toe the line did you not understand? Toeing the line doesnt make one a Sue outright. It just means that. Toeing the line. Borderline.

Also Canon Sues exist and they arent always self inserts or Author Avatars. A good example of one is Citan Uzuki from the game Xenogears. Hes basically perfect, does no wrong, has pretty cool abilities, is dodgy as fuck all in parts but the main character doesnt seem to care much, and is just plain badass. Yet people arent complaining. There are good Sues and bad Sues.

[HeroMystic]

Micaiah is more of a character who's a victim of having very dry and flat friends.

[Stormcrown]

What part of toe the line did you not understand? Toeing the line doesnt make one a Sue outright. It just means that. Toeing the line. Borderline.

Also Canon Sues exist and they arent always self inserts or Author Avatars. A good example of one is Citan Uzuki from the game Xenogears. Hes basically perfect, does no wrong, has pretty cool abilities, is dodgy as fuck all in parts but the main character doesnt seem to care much, and is just plain badass. Yet people arent complaining. There are good Sues and bad Sues.

No.

Now we have Mary Sues, and borderline Mary Sues, as well as sometimes self inserts, sometimes not self inserts. Then beyond that, we have good and bad Mary Sues, despite Mary Sue being a NEGATIVE term by definition.

Christ.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Stormcrown

[Loki Laufeyson]

Micaiah is more of a character who's a victim of having very dry and flat friends.

Actually, shes a victim of bad writing.

No

Are you actually going to deny the fact Bella Swan from Twilight is a Mary Sue? Or Lestat from Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles? If so, fucking lol.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Virion

[Stormcrown]

Accidently pressed enter, finished the message.

But as a response, Twilight is a book series, and a very poorly written one.

Fire Emblem is a video game that revolves around turn based strategy and the story facilitates that. Very few strategy games have a fully fleshed out story. Fire Emblem does do an extremely good job but its very clear their first concern is the gameplay. Something I appreciate.

Edit: Mary Sue is a concept that was created in relation to books, namely fan fiction and has moved into every other story-related piece of media in existence.

A huge majority of people don't even use the term properly and it just muddles up and confuses the entire group of people talking about it.

If you mean the person is too powerful or gets too much attention just say that. Stop using an extremely vague term that no one is on the same page about.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Stormcrown

[Silver Lightning]

Micaiah is more of a character who's a victim of having very dry and flat friends.

Which in my opinion is because of the bare bones support system in the game. I feel like Radiant Dawn wouldn't have been such a base breaker in regards to characters development (and supposed Mary Sues/Gary Stus) if it had more fleshed out supports that would of in turn fleshed out characters, and if the plot had allowed the characters to actually have a breather for character dev. every once in while instead trying to fit a far flung, over stretched story in every inch of the game.

[HeroMystic]

Actually, shes a victim of bad writing.

Indeed she is, but I believe Micaiah herself is okay as a character. Silver Lightning made pretty solid point about the (lack of) support conversations in RD, but I'll take it a step further than that. I used to hate Micaiah with a passion because of her lack of growth and lack of consequences for her actions. However replaying through the game recently (twice even), that my hatred should be going to all of Daein, especially the Dawn Brigade. The only one who questions Pelleas/Micaiah's orders is Jill. Sothe sort of does but all his words are meaningless because he'll never leave Micaiah, and everyone else just follows blindly. The game was obviously stretched too thin to account for character development, but Micaiah and the Dawn Brigade suffered the most because they were new characters.

Edited April 29, 2013 by HeroMystic

[Loki Laufeyson]

Indeed she is, but I believe Micaiah herself is okay as a character. Silver Lightning made pretty solid point about the (lack of) support conversations in RD, but I'll take it a step further than that. I used to hate Micaiah with a passion because of her lack of growth and lack of consequences for her actions. However replaying through the game recently (twice even), that my hatred should be going to all of Daein, especially the Dawn Brigade. The only one who questions Pelleas/Micaiah's orders is Jill. Sothe sort of does but all his words are meaningless because he'll never leave Micaiah, and everyone else just follows blindly. The game was obviously stretched too thin to account for character development, but Micaiah and the Dawn Brigade suffered the most because they were new characters.

Arr. The reveal about Micaiah's heritage was also written terribly and paper-thin. How it was revealed was awful. Its a pity because Part 1 started out really strong and all of the DB including Micaiah just did a horrible faceplant as the game wore on. Some people blame Ike and his spotlight stealing squad. I blame bad writing. Perhaps it was the devs trying to put too much in at once and not enough background. Either way, Micaiah and her crew took a huge huge hit. But then again, most characters not named Elincia got hammered in the character development department.

[Naglfar]

uh, the entire point of robin is to be all the things a self-insert fanfic protagonist is good at being. the player gets to be OP and the most important character in the story, which is a kind of flattery anyone who isn't boring enjoys. whether MU is a sue or not, whatever that poorly-defined term means anymore, it's not really comparable to micaiah's (overdiscussed) case because they were writing a hero fantasy in this case, not a character.

[Airship Canon]

No.

While FE:A is poorly written, MU is not a sue.

MU is responsible for the travesty that is Ch9.

AND, MU goes against the definition of a sue anyways. A Sue is an AUTHOR Insert, 100% of the time, without fail. Doesn't meet that condition? NOT. A. SUE. (Which is part of the reason why Canonsue is rare, very rare.)

MU is a Cipher, like almost any other Player Character ever.

What's a Cipher? Reader/Player/Viewer Insert.

While Ciphers tend to be sue-ish in their traits, MU is actually fairly tame compared to some other Ciphers, like say... Dovahkiin. Or Commander Shepard. Or "hero"/"adventurer" (World of Warcraft).

[euklyd]

Welp, I know what I'm naming my next FemAvatar.

But no, I do not think that Avatar is a Mary Sue, simply because they can (and do) make mistakes, whether or not they are called on them. And not getting called on burning the Valmese fleet reflects more on the other characters than whether or not Avatar is a Sue.

One of the reasons Micaiah was called on her dirty tactics was because she (and some of the others) knew that they were fighting for the wrong side, IMO.

Are you kidding me? Avatar is like a toned-down version of Lelouche.

"Great strategy, Avatar! This is a flawless plan!"

Later...

"Ho-holy hell... how did that not work? Is there a raincloud following you around, or something?"

Yes. And the fact that Avatar is trusted unquestionly, despite his/her allies knowing nothing about them. At least Avatar doesn't wear a mask...

Also

[spoiler=Re: Code Geass R2]Avatar goes evil, then is killed to save the world! And it's Avatar's plan! Similarities abound.