Experimental tier list 2

[Chiki]

This tier list considers the following criteria:

Turns saved: A unit saves turns if and only if the highest possible turncount for a chapter is higher without their presence. Consider the lowest possible number of turns you can get in one chapter, such as 3-6. We'll say for the sake of simplicity that the lowest number of turns for 3-6 is 7, including every possible option we have. But in the lowest possible clear of this chapter without Jill, the turncount goes up to 9. Therefore, Jill saves 2 turns from 3-6.

Reliability: the chance that a unit will perform an action reliably. We will subjectively choose whether or not a strategy is reliable, but I think a good percentage to aim for is 60%. If Haar has an around 60% chance to kill the boss, then I consider that to be reliable. If Haar has a 20% chance to clear a chapter, then I neglect that strategy as it is unreliable. It is hard to pick between a 60% chance of clearing a chapter in 5 turns vs. an 80% chance of clearing a chapter in 6 turns; however, I believe that we should go for the lowest reliable turn count. In this tier list, we aim for the lowest number of turns with the highest reliability possible.

Complexity: the number of calculations required in order to clear a chapter. For example, one does not need to think very much in order to clear 1-P, but it is far more difficult in order to conceive of a fast clear of 4-4, which is perhaps the most complex chapter in the game. Complexity is objective and it is not difficulty, which is subjective. 1-P is the most difficult chapter in the game in my perspective, whereas 4-4 may objectively be the most complex. Complexity is needed in order to prevent Edward from rising to the top of the tier list in 1-P for his contributions.

1-P: 1/5

1-1: 3/5

1-2: 2/5

1-3: 4/5

1-4: 3/5

1-5: 1/5

1-6-1: 3/5

1-6-2: 3/5

1-7: 3/5

1-8: 3/5

1-9: 2/5

1-E: 5/5

2-P: 1/5

2-1: 2/5

2-2: 4/5

2-3: 2/5

2-E: 1/5 (This is due to the piss easy 1-turn clear with Haar, who can get a Hammer and a Speedwing. This can be pulled off with Elincia as well, I believe, with one or two Stun rigs--though not a rig at all, since it's actually reliable due to Amiti's four hits. If killing the boss was not an option I'd give it a 5.)

3-P: 2/5

3-1: 3/5

3-2: 1/5

3-3: 4/5

3-4: 4/5

3-5: 1/5

3-6: 5/5

3-7: 1/5

3-8: 3/5

3-9: 3/5

3-10: 3/5

3-11: 4/5

3-12: 4/5

3-13: 3/5

3-E: 3/5

4-P: 4/5

4-1: 5/5

4-2: 5/5

4-3: 5/5

4-4: 5/5

4-5: 1/5

4-E-1: 5/5

4-E-2: 1/5

4-E-3: 1/5

4-E-4: 1/5

4-E-5: 3/5 (1 turning on HM is plain impossible, otherwise I would give this a 5 as it requires a million calculations. This assumes a 2 turn clear.)

Note: As long as using up resources doesn't negatively affect turncount and reliability, then it isn't a point against that unit.

We'll be doing this tier list together, as it seems a little hard for me to tier every unit alone. I'll start with the top tier:

God Tier

Jill [T - HP, Str, Skl, Spd, Def]

Haar [N/T]

Top Tier

Titania [T - Spd]

Jill [T - Str, Spd, Def]

Titania

Sothe

Jill

Ike [T - HP, Str, Skl, Spd, Def, Res]

Rafiel

Ike

Edited May 5, 2013 by Olwen

[solrocknroll]

Oliver, Vika, Lyre, Astrid, Fiona, and Meg are the worst.

It's basically agreed by most.

[Da Bear]

Edward deserves barely above the middle.

Also Titania should definitely have a high position.

Edited May 2, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Chiki]

I can see Edward going to the top of mid tier or somewhere in upper mid tier. His contributions, even with complexity involved, are too vital.

[Da Bear]

I can see Edward going to the top of mid tier or somewhere in upper mid tier. His contributions, even with complexity involved, are too vital.

The Dawn Brigade needs a lot early on.

Tiering Edward is a pain but I can't see him below middle. By which I mean his position in other tier lists shouldn't be considered.

Edited May 2, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Chiki]

I can see Titania going above everyone else except Jill with transfers and Haar. She's basically Haar without flight... though that matters a lot in this game.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Olwen

[Florete]

You didn't explain many of the complexity ratings so I figure it okay to ask about a few:

1-4: 2/5

Why is 1-4 the least complex since 1-P when it's the first time Sothe can actually die? And everyone else in general takes hits a lot harder.

1-9: 1/5

This is only because exact strategies are already known, yes?

2-1: 2/5

Unless this is assuming Heather is skipped, I don't see how this can be so low. A lot of things can go wrong in 2-1 that require a player to think on their feet.

3-3: 4/5

3-4: 4/5

What makes these so high? Specifically, how are they more complex than 3-P and 3-1, both of which are in FoW and have an untrained team that is bigger and better by 3-3.

3-13: 5/5

Why is this maxed when all one must do is defeat Ike?

4-P: 4/5

4-1: 5/5

4-2: 5/5

4-3: 5/5

4-4: 5/5

I don't specifically disagree with any of these, but why is 4-P the only one at 4/5?

4-E-1: 5/5

How many turns is assumed such that this makes 5/5?

4-E-5: 1/5 (1 turning on HM is plain impossible, otherwise I would give this a 5 as it requires a million calculations. This assumes a 2 turn clear.)

Not seeing how this gets a 1 based on a two turn clear. Getting the specific positioning down and accounting for missed hits gets pretty complex.

God Tier

Jill [T - HP, Str, Skl, Spd, Def]

Haar [N/T]

I'd put Titania just below Haar to start.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Da Bear]

I can see Titania going above everyone else except Jill with transfers and Haar. She's basically Haar without flight... though that matters a lot in this game.

The problem is that Oscar can do almost if not just as much. Contribution that can be mimicked isn't as good as something only one character can do.

Jill on top is definite because no one can do what she does beyond that I think we would best off looking at what someone can do and who else can do it.

This is not to say Titania shouldn't be very high I just think some characters can contribute more.

[Chiki]

Why is 1-4 the least complex since 1-P when it's the first time Sothe can actually die? And everyone else in general takes hits a lot harder.

It's really hard to get Sothe to die if you heal him up once with Laura and put him next to one of those healing pots. And I think I'll increase that one to 3/5 as opposed to 2/5.

This is only because exact strategies are already known, yes?

Well, it was more so because Micaiah can simply hide while you can put the BK anywhere you like. Now that I think about it, the fog makes calculations very complicated, so I'll go ahead and increase it to 2/5.

Unless this is assuming Heather is skipped, I don't see how this can be so low. A lot of things can go wrong in 2-1 that require a player to think on their feet.

Nah, I won't assume Heather is skipped. It seems pretty trivial to me. Though I might increase it to 3/5, as it seems like there are a lot of units compared to your own and the chapter is really hard to low turn.

What makes these so high? Specifically, how are they more complex than 3-P and 3-1, both of which are in FoW and have an untrained team that is bigger and better by 3-3.

3-P is because of the laguz and you barely have to do a thing. 3-1 is FoW, but it's still really easy to low turn--or at least in my experience it is. It isn't much effort to send Ike north and Titania west then north. I think 3/5 is justified.

Why is this maxed when all one must do is defeat Ike?

Unlike 2-E where you can own Ludveck with base Haar and Elincia, Jill needs to be high level and this also depends on Ike. And Ike is far more dangerous than Ludveck is.. and impossible to kill in LTC runs without Jill.

How many turns is assumed such that this makes 5/5?

2.

I don't specifically disagree with any of these, but why is 4-P the only one at 4/5?

Because, as Cynthia pointed out in another thread, it isn't much more than positioning Jill and Haar really really carefully.

Not seeing how this gets a 1 based on a two turn clear. Getting the specific positioning down and accounting for missed hits gets pretty complex.

I didn't think it was so hard. Though I can see it going up to 3/5.

The problem is that Oscar can do almost if not just as much.

No Hand Axe forges, Titania has superior strength, needs less babying, much earlier promotion etc. Titania is far superior.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Olwen

[Da Bear]

"No Hand Axe forges, Titania has superior strength, needs less babying, etc. Titania is far superior."

I never said she wasn't.. I just said she doesn't have unique contributions.

[Chiki]

"No Hand Axe forges, Titania has superior strength, needs less babying, etc. Titania is far superior."

I never said she wasn't.. I just said she doesn't have unique contributions.

But compared to Oscar, there's plenty of things that Titania has over Oscar, which is what I was pointing out. Titania is certainly unique compared to Oscar, but not to Haar.

The main reason is that Titania promotes far earlier than Oscar does, and you can't use Master Crowns to promote early because they're so few and useful.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Olwen

[Da Bear]

But compared to Oscar, there's plenty of things that Titania has over Oscar, which is what I was pointing out. Titania is certainly unique compared to Oscar, but not to Haar.

The main reason is that Titania promotes far earlier than Oscar does, and you can't use Master Crowns to promote early because they're so few and useful.

I know I was just pointing out that Haar can do everything she can do better and Oscar can do several things that she can, even if he's not as good at it.

Also I recommend Sothe for at least middle of high tier. He has great move on a team with one (lolFiona) mounted unit plus he gives higher reliability then anyone else.

[Chiki]

I know I was just pointing out that Haar can do everything she can do better and Oscar can do several things that she can, even if he's not as good at it.

Also I recommend Sothe for at least middle of high tier. He has great move on a team with one (lolFiona) mounted unit plus he gives higher reliability then anyone else.

Oscar can't really do anything Titania can in an LTC run. He needs a lot of babying and bexp for that.

Though you are right in claiming that Titania is not as unique as Haar. But in chapters like 3-8 and 3-10, it's important to note that you need both of those units to pull off low turn rout clears. It's important in Part 4 as well, in which they aren't together.

I can see Sothe at the bottom of top tier, maybe.

[Da Bear]

Oscar can't really do anything Titania can in an LTC run. He needs a lot of babying and bexp for that.

Though you are right in claiming that Titania is not as unique as Haar. But in chapters like 3-8 and 3-10, it's important to note that you need both of those units to pull off low turn rout clears. It's important in Part 4 as well, in which they aren't together.

I can see Sothe at the bottom of top tier, maybe.

Oscar can come close to Titania's output I never said he did as well (I can see you seeing my comments as saying that.).

Also how many people can do as much as Sothe? He's the Dawn Brigade's pre-promote, and he shaves a lot of turns (or at least makes the strats more reliable).

[Chiki]

Oscar can come close to Titania's output I never said he did as well (I can see you seeing my comments as saying that.).

Also how many people can do as much as Sothe? He's the Dawn Brigade's pre-promote, and he shaves a lot of turns (or at least makes the strats more reliable).

Jill, Ike, Titania, Haar? That's what comes to mind for now.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Olwen

[Florete]

Titania is waaaaay better than Oscar. She has better damage, durability, and speed. Oscar just can't kill very easily, which hurts his experience gain, and his speed and durability are really borderline, so if he doesn't get that experience he just falls off completely. Having a hard time promoting, unlike Titania, is also a significant problem. On this list I'd probably see Oscar somewhere around middle tier.

On Sothe, I'd agree with him in Top. Not sure where relative to the others, though.

[Hawk King]

Why are transfers even considered? This isn't just a question to piss someone off. I am legitimately curious as to why transfers are considered for this game's tier lists.

Not everyone uses them and only those who have FE9 even have access to transfers. Not to mention, how do you determine what stats a character will get to transfer? Do you go by the stats characters cap on average? Jill needs 2 robes on average to cap HP, why is HP considered a stat that she will transfer?

edit - Actually Jill doesn't cap a single stat on average now that I checked on it.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Hawk King

[Anouleth]

It might even be worth noting that in my LTC run, my Jill had more kills than Haar did.

what the fuck does that have to do with the price of tea in china

[Chiki]

Why are transfers even considered? This isn't just a question to piss someone off. I am legitimately curious as to why transfers are considered for this game's tier lists.

Not everyone uses them and only those who have FE9 even have access to transfers. Not to mention, how do you determine what stats a character will get to transfer? Do you go by the stats characters cap on average? Jill needs 2 robes on average to cap HP, why is HP considered a stat that she will transfer?

edit - Actually Jill doesn't cap a single stat on average now that I checked on it.

Why not consider them as an option? Just like Red Fox's tier list, I can put both characters with no transfers and characters with transfers.

It is really easy to cap stats in FE9 with some band abuse and stat boosters. It is certainly worth considering characters like Jill with perfect transfers, who can go up multiple tiers just with transfers.

[Hawk King]

Ok and it's pretty easy for someone to get an Action Replay and cap every single stat for every single character.

My point is, how do you determine what stats are getting transfers? Where do you draw the line? Why not include MAG and RES in Jill's transfered stats?

[Chiki]

Ok and it's pretty easy for someone to get an Action Replay and cap every single stat for every single character.

My point is, how do you determine what stats are getting transfers? Where do you draw the line? Why not include MAG and RES in Jill's transfered stats?

Magic and Res are both really hard for Jill, so I didn't consider them. But she does not need either of those regardless.

It's ultimately my subjective opinion on who gets what transfers and so on. It's whatever I consider to be not too difficult. But you are free to challenge and improve on the transfers I use on my tier list after I post them.

[Mr. Haar]

Titania and Marcia should be second highest tier, perhaps Kieran and Elincia too.

[Chiki]

Elincia and Kieran both have subpar stats and availability in common. Though I can definitely agree with the former two.

[solrocknroll]

Shinon should be higher than all the other archers. I say he should go at top middle tier.

[CT075]

Turns saved: A unit saves turns if and only if the highest possible turncount for a chapter is higher without their presence.

i feel like this has been asked somewhere, but if we theoretically assume that two units can (mutually exclusive to each other, or perhaps they fill the same role or something like that) shave the same number of turns off of a chapter (such that the turncount is higher if and only if both units were absent), then how is that handled? is it that neither gets the turnshaved credit? both?