Alternate HM tier list

[Espinosa]

Actually, in the 6-turn clear of chapter 9, Boyd is involved in the infrastructure whether he's promoting or not. If Mia's not promoting, she has no purpose going south at all. So there's quite a difference between those two.

[Chiki]

So what? That doesn't change my view that my definition allows for alternate contexts.

I'd really like to get back on topic. What do people think of tiering Rescueless Olivia, Lissa and Maribelle and tiering Galeforceless Female Avatar, Sumia and Cordelia?

[Espinosa]

Only in your strange world where opportunity cost is omitted out of the picture.

Because really:

1) Mia takes the BEXP dump.

Boyd still contributes the 2 Shoves.

2) Boydtakes the BEXP dump.

Boyd takes and drops Ike. Mia doesn't help with the turn-shaving.

3) Soren takes the BEXP dump. (hard to achieve, but I believe a robe and some RNG-blessing enables him to take on an extra enemy during EP, and he can be fed bosses until then)

Boyd still contributes the 2 Shoves. Mia doesn't help with the turn-shaving.

4) Ilyana takes the BEXP dump. (not possible I think, though you could feed her the C8 boss if you work towards it)

Boyd still contributes the 2 Shoves. Mia doesn't help with the turn-shaving.

In any other scenario where a 6-turn is not achieved, a trained Boyd is more effective/durable on the beach without any BEXP investment (Mia has to try to dodge-tank without one).

So in chapter 9, taking into account all the possible efficient clears, Boyd and Mia contribute in qualitatively different ways.

[Anouleth]

I think you just take a very rigid, literal sense of my definition. That is not my intention. My definition is left vague to allow for having different teams and potential other clears. It does not say in the definition what team you're using, if you're in a draft, etc. Hence why I give credit to other potential clears.

It's implicit that you're using a certain team because the list assumes you are getting the lowest possible turncount, which is only possible with certain teams. So it's implicit, for example, that we are using Titania in Chapter 9, or we could not get the lowest possible turncount.

My definition uses the word the. But it is not clear which lowest possible turncount we are aiming for. Under what context?

There is only one lowest possible turncount. By definition, you could not have another lowest possible turncount that took a different value, because then one of them would not be the lowest possible.

You can take that sense, if you so wish, but that is not the way I see my definition.

Then you don't understand your own definition.

For otherwise, the tier list would be useless in finding the worth of other characters, and useless for helping drafters.

Yeah, it would, wouldn't it?

Going back on topic. I'll be updating the OP shortly, but does everyone agree with tiering Rescueless Olivia, Lissa and Maribelle and tiering Galeforceless Female Avatar, Sumia and Cordelia?

You'd also need to tier Rescueless Anna and Libra. There's also no value in tiering Galeforceless Avatar because even without Galeforce, Avatar is the best character in the game.

[Redwall]

I took a look at some draft logs just now and it seems like the most common ruling on Galeforce/Rescue is: Rescue can be used at most once per turn, and if Galeforce activates, the only action you may take is to use a healing item. Nonetheless, making separate versions of Lissa, Maribelle, Sumia, and Cordelia sounds reasonable.

I have a question about the tiering framework. Suppose Marcia saves 50 turns. If a hundred Marcias existed, with the condition that you are allowed to field at most one of them, they should each get credit for 50/100 = 0.5 turns, right? If so, should we not be forced to place them below characters whose contributions are unique, but not as significant as those of Marcia?

[Chiki]

There is only one lowest possible turncount. By definition, you could not have another lowest possible turncount that took a different value, because then one of them would not be the lowest possible.

Lowest possible turncount in what context? With everything allowed? In a certain draft context? The definition does not state what context this lowest possible turncount has to be.

I have a question about the tiering framework. Suppose Marcia saves 50 turns. If a hundred Marcias existed, with the condition that you are allowed to field at most one of them, they should each get credit for 50/100 = 0.5 turns, right? If so, should we not be forced to place them below characters whose contributions are unique, but not as significant as those of Marcia?

I brought up this exact same problem in another thread but used a million Marcias instead. I don't know what my final answer is yet, but I think the contributions those million Marcias make is a lot greater than anyone except Titania, probably.

[Chiki]

What children would you guys like to add to this list?

Updating OP as well.

List of characters we need to tier:

Chrom

Female Avatar (with Galeforce)

Female Avatar (without Galeforce)

Male Avatar

Lissa (with Rescue)

Lissa (without Rescue)

Frederick

Sully

Virion

Stahl

Vaike

Miriel

Sumia (with Galeforce)

Sumia (without Galeforce)

Kellam

Donnel

Lon'qu

Ricken

Maribelle (with Rescue)

Maribelle (without Rescue)

Gaius

Panne

Cordelia (with Galeforce)

Cordelia (without Galeforce)

Gregor

Nowi

Libra (with Rescue)

Libra (without Rescue)

Tharja

Anna (with Rescue)

Anna (without Rescue)

Olivia (with Rescue)

Olivia (without Rescue)

Cherche

Henry

Say'ri

Tiki

Basilio

Flavia

Edited May 12, 2013 by Olwen

[Redwall]

I brought up this exact same problem in another thread but used a million Marcias instead. I don't know what my final answer is yet, but I think the contributions those million Marcias make is a lot greater than anyone except Titania, probably.

Yeah, I decided to bring up your example again since I wasn't satisfied by your initial answer. It seems to me like if we view this tier list as a list for drafters of whom to prioritize, it would indeed make sense for all one million Marcias to be in one of the lower tiers, as there is no competition for her in a setting with only four players; the Marcias would always be drafted last. On the other hand, if we view the tier list as a list for an all-out LTC playthrough with no deployment restrictions, all one million Marcias would have to be in the top tier. Should the one optimal team (in terms of reliability and complexity-weighted TCs) be weighted equally as any other team? It's not clear to me.

[Chiki]

On the other hand, if we view the tier list as a list for an all-out LTC playthrough with no deployment restrictions, all one million Marcias would have to be in the top tier.

According to my definition of turns saved, Marcia actually saves no turns at all if there are a million other ones. Because she is replaceable by a million other units.

What I would do is give credit to these million Marcias based on their potential to cut a turn when none of them are around. If one decides to ban all of them (which can absolutely happen in draft contexts), then their usefulness really seems apparent despite their being a million of them. So they still get credit for being able to cut turns regardless of their being a million of them.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Olwen

[Anouleth]

According to my definition of turns saved, Marcia actually saves no turns at all if there are a million other ones. Because she is replaceable by a million other units.

What I would do is give credit to these million Marcias based on their potential to cut a turn when none of them are around. If one decides to ban all of them (which can absolutely happen in draft contexts), then their usefulness really seems apparent despite their being a million of them. So they still get credit for being able to cut turns regardless of their being a million of them.

But then they're taking credit for each other's contributions. No doubt, Ricken's usefulness would be readily apparent, if every other unit in the game was banned, and he would save a stupendous number of turns, but it's not really what we would call being a good character if they're only useful under such a highly specific scenario. Why is it acceptable to consider the situation where 99% of the cast are arbitrarily prohibited from being used with regard to having a million Marcias?

Lowest possible turncount in what context? With everything allowed? In a certain draft context? The definition does not state what context this lowest possible turncount has to be.

Well, I see you've changed the original post, but you need to be more specific about what contexts are considered. For example, to take your Frederick example, you say that Frederick saves 5 turns in Chapter 2. But that's only considering an environment in which every character is being used. If we're only using Virion and Lissa, it is readily apparent that the number of turns that Frederick saves is far greater. Does this situation have equal weight to a situation where we use all available units?

I brought up this exact same problem in another thread but used a million Marcias instead. I don't know what my final answer is yet, but I think the contributions those million Marcias make is a lot greater than anyone except Titania, probably.

No doubt, the contributions of every single character other than Marcia put together is a lot greater than the contributions of Marcia, but we do not attach characters together into arbitrary bundles. No doubt, Marcia and Ena together contribute more than Titania, but that doesn't mean Ena should be above Titania. So even if together, those million Marcias contribute a lot, they have to be tiered individually, on their own merits. To analogise to a draft, you could not draft all one million Marcias at once.

[Chiki]

Before I reply to Anouleth:

(Not considering children yet, that will come once this is done):

Deity Tier

Female Avatar (with Galeforce)

Top Tier

Sumia (with Galeforce)

Cordelia (with Galeforce)

Male Avatar

Female Avatar (without Galeforce)

Olivia (with Rescue)

Frederick

[Narga_Rocks]

Stop it stop it stop it. Each time I come on this thread there's a bunch of fe9 talk, but the last two posts or so I see are usually on-topic so I don't say anything because I hope it's finally done. No more. 3 strikes and all. Even if you think it applies to this tier list, talk in terms of fe13 characters. I will be warning, and I will be moving stuff to the tier philosohy thread or to Olwen's fe9 tier list or somewhere. Please don't make me work.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[Redwall]

Hmm, I wonder if Sully and Panne could make top tier. In addition to their solid combat numbers, they are both capable of learning Deliverer, which can replicate most but not all of what Galeforce does in the lategame, even in a one-Rescue-per-turn drafting environment. If playing with Galeforce, the earliest they can take a Second Seal is Ch 12; if playing without Galeforce, they can take the Ch 8 Second Seal and learn Deliverer before too long...but then again, the Avatars can also do this.

Neither Sully nor Panne provides the unique earlygame contributions that Frederick does, but with few exceptions, the earlygame is not very complex. Sully also lays claim to saving one turn in Ch 3, one of the more complex earlygame chapters, assuming otherwise unrestricted deployment, while Panne doesn't have any unique contributions of mention. I could see them in either the lower part of Top or the upper part of the next highest tier.

What are you planning on doing with Anna and Libra?

[Hawk King]

Just start placing characters already! Start at the top and bottom, and work your way to the middle. Obviously Basilio, Flavia, Donnel, and Ricken are low tier material so put them there. If you ask for people's opinions on every character it will take weeks to finish the list.

As far as your complexity rating goes, I understand your definition for it, but I still have no idea how it is supposed to be applied to character vs character arguments. For FE 10 it works because of characters only being available on certain maps and the whole "1-P Edward God-tier connundrum", but for every other FE, assigning complexity to every map seems completely pointless.

I guess im asking, How does map complexity affect FE:A? And if it doesn't affect it at all, shouldn't you just drop it?

[Chiki]

It would be ad hoc to say complexity doesn't apply to every Fire Emblem game if it applies to one, because all games are pretty similar. It might seem pointless but we can't just say "well let's just use complexity where we need it!" That's irrational.

Complexity has its uses in every game regardless. Frederick gets a bit less credit for doing early game chapters well, and so on.

I don't know about Anna and Libra lol. What do you guys think?

I can see Sully and Panne going to the bottom of top. Any more opinions?

I suppose I'll just finish the tiers myself.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Olwen

[Chiki]

Preliminary tier list: children will be added once we decide on these.

This is a very imperfect tier list! Please feel free to suggest things.

Deity Tier

Female Avatar (with Galeforce)

Top Tier

Sumia (with Galeforce)

Cordelia (with Galeforce)

Male Avatar

Female Avatar (without Galeforce)

Olivia (with Rescue)

Frederick

Maribelle (with Rescue)

Anna (with Rescue)

Libra (with Rescue)

Lissa (with Rescue)

High Tier

Olivia

Sully

Panne

Stahl

Sumia

Cordelia

Anna

Chrom

Lon'qu

Nowi

Mid Tier

Gaius

Tiki

Cherche

Say'ri

Tharja

Libra

Miriel

Vaike

Gregor

Kellam

Bottom Tier

Ricken

Maribelle

Lissa

Basilio

Flavia

Henry

Virion

Donnel

Edited May 14, 2013 by Olwen

[Da Bear]

I've been in enough drafts to know Sumia is still top tier without Galeforce. Early-game flight is just too good.

[Chiki]

Probably not above Sully and Panne, though? Those are in top tier too.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Olwen

[Da Bear]

Probably not above Sully and Panne, though? Those are in top tier too.

But Sumia doesn't have to wait for a second seal! She saves at least a turn from Chapter 5 and more in the future. Also once reclassed to gain flying Sully and Panne need a weapon rank to gain 1-2 range which is nice to have in rout maps.

[Elieson]

So when is Panne reclassing to be useful again, Olwen?

Also, clarify R!Maribelle > R!Lissa. Lissa has an exclusive rescue before Maribelle ever will (Ch4), as well as heals that help conserve the Elixir preCh5

[Anouleth]

But Sumia doesn't have to wait for a second seal! She saves at least a turn from Chapter 5 and more in the future. Also once reclassed to gain flying Sully and Panne need a weapon rank to gain 1-2 range which is nice to have in rout maps.

If Sully/Panne are reclassing with the Chapter 8 Seal, that gives them two maps in which to build axe rank. Sully has Discipline which makes it very easy, Panne can probably do it without too much hassle either.

Lon'qu should be above Panne. He has vantage, which allows him to tank huge numbers of enemies once he reaches a certain level of strength (enough to ORKO enemies with a hand axe hit + dual strike). Panne merely has better stats, which are probably a lesser advantage. In situations where it is necessary to take on mages and archers on the enemy phase, Lon'qu is probably a better choice. If nothing else, they should be closer.

Miriel isn't on your tier list at all.

[Elieson]

If Sully/Panne are reclassing with the Chapter 8 Seal, that gives them two maps in which to build axe rank. Sully has Discipline which makes it very easy, Panne can probably do it without too much hassle either.

Lon'qu should be above Panne. He has vantage, which allows him to tank huge numbers of enemies once he reaches a certain level of strength (enough to ORKO enemies with a hand axe hit + dual strike). Panne merely has better stats, which are probably a lesser advantage. In situations where it is necessary to take on mages and archers on the enemy phase, Lon'qu is probably a better choice. If nothing else, they should be closer.

Miriel isn't on your tier list at all.

If sully or panne are reclassing I. Ch8, then Avatar isn't flying and working on Galeforce until ch12

LonQu costs a seal, which arguably caused Panne to drop straight off of the tier list.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Elieson

[Chiki]

Eh, shouldn't Avatar be the first one to class change under every circumstance? I mean, Tactician sucks doesn't it?

I put Miriel in.

What suggestions do you guys wanna make?

I put Maribelle > Lissa because she has a mount and I don't think Rescue has much use prior to 5. But I'm open to changing it.

Lon'qu above Panne?

Edited May 14, 2013 by Olwen

[General Horace]

vantage is a pretty minor advantage lon'qu has over panne, she's not ever dropping below half unless you throw her at a rexcalibur mage or something anyway, and Lon'qu himself actually takes reasonable damage from physical enemies in comparison and has worse offence, i don't know why it's even a comparison. They both require a second seal for wyvern too, so that's a moot point.

[Redwall]

Ricken, Maribelle, Lissa, and Henry are all mid-tier material, I think.

Ricken has use in drafts as a vaguely passable combat unit who can use Rescue, and can ferry people around in the desert chapters; Henry has use as a +Mag ferry for Anna since he can insta-promote to 8-move Dark Knight, and is also somewhat capable as a combat unit once his Spd is patched up; Maribelle and Lissa can be somewhat useful as your dedicated Rescuebot (the draft logs I've seen tend to allow one use of Rescue per player phase, so Rescue remains important in drafts without being game-breaking) in order to free up someone like Miriel to instead attack.