Chiki Posted May 19, 2013 Author Share Posted May 19, 2013 (edited) Uh, how? Costing turns and hurting reliability aren't even defined in the opening post. Ergo, costing turns is not a meaningful definition. If characters are going to be penalised for costing turns, this should be mentioned and clearly defined in the opening post, not left up to the reader's interpretation. If it's good to save turns, it's pretty clear that it would be bad to do the opposite. Lol. It just logically follows. Anyway, the definition for costing turns is pretty much identical with a key difference: a unit costs turns if and only if the next lowest possible clear of the chapter in varying contexts is higher. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. Edited May 19, 2013 by Olwen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 (edited) Nope. If we can consider transfers on the FE10 tier list, we can consider the infinitely easier to access logbook and spotpass I remember reading in the New Mystery tier list that initially, Rainbow Potion wasn't considered because it required you to be online. Once it became available in the base game, it drastically changed the list, whereas with the Fe10 tier list, both transfers and regulars are considered. I'm not sure if the former affects the latter's positions, though. This is something that should probably be discussed further. Banning renown items is stupid because they're available after certain points. Why are we setting up more pointless restrictions on resources that we can use within the vanilla game? Edited May 19, 2013 by Constable Reggie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 19, 2013 Author Share Posted May 19, 2013 Most people who play efficiency playthroughs don't have 0 renown to start off with. They have whatever they had in their previous playthrough added on. Efficiency playthroughs presuppose experience in the game. Allowing Renown is also going to allow the Supreme Emblem, an extra Boots and so on to a certain select of people like me who have 99999 or lower renown. That isn't an accurate representation of everyone. Either you ban Renown or you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK Gaming Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 (edited) Tier list update, I might have forgotten some characters and put them in some bad spots. Rules 1. No Spotpass, Spotpass gifts or buying items from Spotpass. 2. No Renown items allowed. 3. No DLC chapters played. 4. Galeforce and Rescue are allowed an unlimited number of times. Deity Tier Female Avatar Turnshaver Tier Sumia Cordelia Frederick Olivia Libra Top Tier Male Avatar Sully Stahl Lissa Maribelle Miriel Ricken High Tier Chrom Nowi Tharja Henry Mid Tier Gaius Cherche Panne Lon'qu Low Tier Anna Say'ri Vaike Gregor Kellam Tiki Bottom Tier Basilio Flavia Virion Donnel Male avatar is 2 tiers lower than female avatar, ricken is top tier and libra and anna are on opposite ends of the tier list you really are a joke character Edited May 19, 2013 by PK Gaming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Remember this is LTC PK Gaming. Rescuers are naturally better than most of the cast in this environment. Male Avatar sucks in comparison to Female Avatar. Not just in LTC, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Can Ricken actually promote early enough for the Rescue? Not to mention having the range to make it work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Can Ricken actually promote early enough for the Rescue? Not to mention having the range to make it work Ricken actually has one of the best magic as rescuer in the game...as for training him, yes, its more possible to promote him in time than miriel at the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK Gaming Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 (edited) Remember this is LTC PK Gaming. Rescuers are naturally better than most of the cast in this environment. Male Avatar sucks in comparison to Female Avatar. Not just in LTC, either. So Male avatar is worse than Turnshaver Tier. yeah that makes perfect sense. Edited May 19, 2013 by PK Gaming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 (edited) Chrom never shaves turns unless hes being paired with Frederick. Avatar male saves exactly like 1 turn or 2. (Prologue and Chapter 2) Edited May 19, 2013 by Peekayell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 19, 2013 Author Share Posted May 19, 2013 (edited) Male avatar is 2 tiers lower than female avatar, ricken is top tier and libra and anna are on opposite ends of the tier list you really are a joke character Ha ha haha. Male Avatar doesn't have Galeforce. Ricken gives Magic pair up bonuses and he himself can get Rescue upon promoting to Sage. Anna costs turns; otherwise she would be high up. Edited May 19, 2013 by Olwen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Most people who play efficiency playthroughs don't have 0 renown to start off with. They have whatever they had in their previous playthrough added on. Efficiency playthroughs presuppose experience in the game. Allowing Renown is also going to allow the Supreme Emblem, an extra Boots and so on to a certain select of people like me who have 99999 or lower renown. That isn't an accurate representation of everyone. Either you ban Renown or you don't. I understand the logic behind banning Renown, but instead of assuming all or nothing, you could assume a general baseline such as 350, which would be one full run that includes some Paralogues. It doesn't need to be specifically 350, but I think the idea is reasonable. Male avatar is 2 tiers lower than female avatar, ricken is top tier and libra and anna are on opposite ends of the tier list you really are a joke character If you're going to make such a post, at least elaborate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 19, 2013 Author Share Posted May 19, 2013 I understand the logic behind banning Renown, but instead of assuming all or nothing, you could assume a general baseline such as 350, which would be one full run that includes some Paralogues. It doesn't need to be specifically 350, but I think the idea is reasonable. I don't like to make those kinds of rules because it could start arguments about where the limit should be. But if I see a lot of people agreeing on one point then I can see it happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 (edited) Most people who play efficiency playthroughs don't have 0 renown to start off with. They have whatever they had in their previous playthrough added on. Efficiency playthroughs presuppose experience in the game. Allowing Renown is also going to allow the Supreme Emblem, an extra Boots and so on to a certain select of people like me who have 99999 or lower renown. That isn't an accurate representation of everyone. Either you ban Renown or you don't. Rofl no. It's common sense to assume that starting at 0 renown is the baseline. You get 10 per chapter, so it's pathetically easy to make specific points where you get the renown items. In fact, SDS has already done it for you. Everyone, including brand new players, will get these items at the same time. Who gives a shit if some people start off with more renown than others. Really, all you're doing is making more hypocritical guidelines akin to the ones in the regular tier list that you were complaining about. Edited May 19, 2013 by Constable Reggie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 19, 2013 Author Share Posted May 19, 2013 Rofl no. It's common sense to assume that starting at 0 renown is the baseline. You get 10 per chapter, so it's pathetically easy to make specific points where you get the renown items. SDS has already done it for you. Who gives a shit if some people start off with more renown than others. Really, all you're doing is making more hypocritical guidelines akin to the ones in the regular tier list that you were complaining about. No one has 0 renown while starting an efficiency playthrough. We want this tier list to be practical, not hypothetical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 (edited) How the hell do you know that? You don't. You're only contradicting yourself, because that assumption itself is hypothetical. Edited May 19, 2013 by Constable Reggie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 19, 2013 Author Share Posted May 19, 2013 Because people don't buy the game and play efficiently right off the bat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 You don't know that for sure. You're hypothesizing. Huh. Could have sworn you were against that kind of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 19, 2013 Author Share Posted May 19, 2013 (edited) I think you come into all the threads I post into just to troll. Let's take a poll: Do you guys dive straight into HM efficiency after buying the game? I don't, so there's one person. Edited May 19, 2013 by Olwen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 "Wah wah wah I hate this tier list because of the seemingly abitrary restrictions it has, so I'm going to make my own tier list with its own arbitrary restrictions" I'm only calling out your bullshit. If I say that I have a friend who started off playing efficiently from the start, how are you going to prove me wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 19, 2013 Author Share Posted May 19, 2013 "Wah wah wah I hate this tier list because of the seemingly abitrary restrictions it has, so I'm going to make my own tier list with its own arbitrary restrictions" I'm only calling out your bullshit. If I say that I have a friend who started off playing efficiently from the start, how are you going to prove me wrong? The only thing that matters is if a decently sized majority doesn't start the game efficiently, because the rule would apply to the majority of people who look at this tier list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 You don't know that for sure. You're hypothesizing. Huh. Could have sworn you were against that kind of thing. You're pretty obviously being pedantic. People like us may have played the game semi-efficiently on their first run, but no one should be coming in and seriously arguing character positions if they haven't played through the game at least once. In addition, people that haven't played the game at all likely won't bother with or get anything from a tier list. That alone is reason enough to assume a baseline of Renown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 19, 2013 Author Share Posted May 19, 2013 Anyway, I attached this to the first post because of the number of people who keep complaining about the tier list being arbitrary: This tier list uses the least number of subjective criteria possible in an attempt to be logically rigorous. If you want to complain about the tier list being ultimately arbitrary, look at this post: As has been mentioned ad nauseam, tier list necessarily has subjective criteria, since a tier list ranks characters based on criteria we subjectively prefer; that doesn't mean we should add more criteria than we need. Although this set of criteria remains subjective, it at least makes some attempt to avoid such ill-defined guidelines as "you must play quickly, but not too quickly lest, gawds forbid, an actually-good unit eats Nowi's lunch." This tier list considers complexity-weighted turns and reliability. If a character costs turns and/or hurts reliability, and we tier rationally based on these criteria, he or she is a bad character under these criteria. Without adding more criteria, ignoring recruitment costs is inconsistent with the current set of criteria. I updated the list, as well. Deity Tier Female Avatar Turnshaver Tier Sumia Cordelia Frederick Olivia Top Tier Libra Male Avatar Sully Stahl Miriel Ricken High Tier Lissa Maribelle Chrom Nowi Tharja Henry Mid Tier Gaius Cherche Panne Lon'qu Low Tier Anna Say'ri Vaike Gregor Kellam Tiki Bottom Tier Basilio Flavia Virion Donnel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 (edited) You don't know for absolute sure that 100% of the people are not either a)playing Awakening for the first time and wanting to do it efficiently, or more likely, b) playing a new copy. Because you refuse to accept that there likely is at least one person that either of these two points apply to, you're essentially making an arbitrary restriction on renown items based on a hypothetical assumption. This wouldn't be a problem in itself, but then you go back to the whole idea of this tier list, which was to get rid of all seemingly arbitrary restrictions on usage of resources. The stupidly obvious fix would be to establish baselines for which renown items are available to every person. Everything past like 350 renown (this is just an estimate) wouldn't apply, because you can't assume that every player will have them in a playthrough. You know that every player will have the items before 350 renown. Outright banning all renown items is a lazy fix that contradicts the entire point of this tier list. The only thing that matters is if a decently sized majority doesn't start the game efficiently, because the rule would apply to the majority of people who look at this tier list. This is pretty much the exact same argument applicable for the regular tier list that you hated oh so much. The majority of players don't play extreme ltc/efficiency. Edited May 19, 2013 by Constable Reggie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Should Gregor move up? Instant Promotion for +1 Mov seems pretty decent, or at least put him above Vaike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 If it's good to save turns, it's pretty clear that it would be bad to do the opposite. Lol. It just logically follows. Anyway, the definition for costing turns is pretty much identical with a key difference: a unit costs turns if and only if the next lowest possible clear of the chapter in varying contexts is higher. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. But then Anna doesn't cost turns in Paralogue 4. After all, the lowest possible clear of the chapter is the same whether you recruit her or not, surely? Or if anything, it would be lower if you did use her? "A unit saves turns if and only if the lowest possible turncount in varying contexts for a chapter is lower without their presence." So... "A unit costs turns if and only if the lowest possible turncount in varying contexts for a chapter is higher with their presence." Anna doesn't cost turns, then. Neither does Donnel (since the lowest possible turncount in Paralogue 1 is the same whether he's there or not). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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