Alternate HM tier list

[Chiki]

This tier list is supposed to get rid of most subjective criteria, not all. No one is denying that the tier list is ultimately subjective.

You casually ignored my post. The only thing that matters is that the majority start with more than 0 Renown, not a few people. This tier list is supposed to apply to the major of people.

I'm going to be ignoring your posts from now on, because other people have already pointed out that you're in here for no reason other than to start fights.

Vaike's pair up bonuses are worth more, I think, than Gregor's taking a Master Seal. What do others think?

But then Anna doesn't cost turns in Paralogue 4. After all, the lowest possible clear of the chapter is the same whether you recruit her or not, surely?

Paralogues are optional. It affects your total turncount.

Units are tiered based on the number of turns they save overall from the game. Obviously.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Olwen

[Constable Reggie]

edited in last post:

The only thing that matters is if a decently sized majority doesn't start the game efficiently, because the rule would apply to the majority of people who look at this tier list.

This is pretty much the exact same argument applicable for the regular tier list that you hated oh so much. The majority of players don't play extreme ltc/efficiency.

If your tier list is supposed to be as objective as possible, then the blatantly obvious solution would be to establish baselines for sub 350 renown items (the second seal being incredibly important). You can objectively say that every person will have access to those items. Who cares if some people have access to even more of them. You can ignore my posts if your feelings are hurt or whatever, but that doesn't negate the fact that you're being hugely hypocritical in regard to the regular tier list.

You're pretty obviously being pedantic.

The renown second seal is potentially a huge game changer. Why should we ignore it because of some arbitrary restriction?

Edited May 19, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Chiki]

This tier list is for people who play efficiency playthroughs.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Olwen

[Constable Reggie]

So what? That excuses the easily-fixable subjective restrictions in this thread that were apparently unacceptable in the regular tier list?

Edited May 19, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Chiki]

This is my last post to you. I've no idea what you're talking about.

This has nothing to do with restrictions, such as saving turns and reliability. The audience of this tier list is people who want to play an efficiency playthrough. That's who I am writing this tier list for.

Anyway, baselines are by definition arbitrarily agreed upon limits. Lol. How is that objective?

The renown second seal is potentially a huge game changer. Why should we ignore it because of some arbitrary restriction?

It probably does nothing at all. Avatar takes the first Second Seal, and no one else cares much for it.

[Da Bear]

It probably does nothing at all. Avatar takes the first Second Seal, and no one else cares much for it.

Several people. Panne can get Deliverer, Sully can get Deliverer, Another person could potentially switch to a staff using class for Rescue...

[Constable Reggie]

Uh, no they're not. You get 10 renown per chapter. You get the glass sword after 5 chapters. You get the second seal after 10 chapters, etc. It can't get much simpler than that. Lol.

Panne would probably jump up a bit if she reclasses early to wyvern, for just one example.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Chiki]

Several people. Panne can get Deliverer, Sully can get Deliverer, Another person could potentially switch to a staff using class for Rescue...

Doesn't seem very significant though; Panne and Sully are ranked high tier, after all.

I suppose I can see Renown being allowed up to Celica's Gale for every playthrough. What do others think?

[Constable Reggie]

Panne's in mid tier.

Why not up to the longbow? After all, I doubt most people play an efficiency tier immediately after just one playthrough.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[charlie_]

Anna autorecruits for the record.

I dont think she'll cost like 7 turns depending on how late you put the thing off till.

[Chiki]

But if you put it off late, she won't have many chances to save turns and she'll be outclassed by Miriel / Ricken.

Does anyone know how long it takes off the bat? 7 turns seems a bit long. Maybe I'll try it out.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Olwen

[PKL]

Paralogue 4 can be done in 2 turns with Rescue chains, heck, Anna herself can contribute to the clear. Realistically, it's a 3 turn though, but Ive seen Horace pull a 2 turn though i don't know when he did it (I just know it was a bit later than when it appears on the map)

Edited May 19, 2013 by Peekayell

[Chiki]

I suppose I'll move Anna up to the bottom of high tier then.

[Anouleth]

Paralogues are optional. It affects your total turncount.

Units are tiered based on the number of turns they save overall from the game. Obviously.

Why is that obvious? Overall turncount is never mentioned in the definition of saving turns. Only chapter turncount. Edited May 19, 2013 by Anouleth

[Chiki]

It isn't mentioned in the criteria, because a tier list is by definition something that ranks units based on overall performance (contribution to reliability and turn count).

Edited May 19, 2013 by Olwen

[Redwall]

If you're going to allow Renown, assuming a baseline of 0 at the start of the game seems like the least arbitrary thing to do; if we make the rule by guessing how many playthroughs any given efficiency player has completed, it wouldn't be very precise since people might complete any number of playthroughs before deciding to do an efficiency run.

[Chiki]

The idea could be to presume that a person has completed at least one playthrough prior to their HM efficiency playthrough. I doubt there is any player in the world who would start right off the bat with a HM efficiency playthrough. It seems weird to me to ignore this fact because it is the reality that almost everyone will have a Second Seal available from the start of Chapter 4.

We could only allow the first few items on the Renown list.

I don't really have an opinion on this yet.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Olwen

[Redwall]

Perhaps you should just make a poll of some sort: do we allow Renown awards at all, and if so, what sort of ranges should we assumed for the baseline.

[Chiki]

http://serenesforest.net/fe13/fame.html

Which items should be allowed for the entire game / how much Renown should we start with? Other than the Second Seal, they don't seem to make any difference. The Energy Drop would help Sumia out, though.

[charlie_]

Uh, Large Bullion and below? 1000 seems fine.

[Redwall]

From a balance perspective, having an early Energy Drop is arguably bad for the tier list since it makes Sumia even more ridiculous; meanwhile, the Second Seal adds some spice in terms of making more characters usable. I feel like assuming a baseline of zero Renown is reasonably clean while making things a bit more balanced; OTOH, I'm sure others will disagree, hence my suggestion for a poll.

[Chiki]

I don't think the Energy Drop would change Sumia's position at all, or anyone else's really. Sumia can ORKO Knights and such earlygame without it...

And the poll would have a ridiculous number of options, so having people post their opinions should be okay.

[Florete]

It should be something relatively low but significant. The Celica's Gale mention before was a good one imo, since that's a pretty good weapon and nothing that comes for a while after it is too significant. 1000 for the Bullion (L) might also be fine, but it could be too high and I would definitely disagree with assuming any higher.

For the record, the idea that we should assume a baseline of 0 Renown or not use Renown at all is just laziness in my eyes. On the same note, are Bonus Box items and Spotpass team shopping going to be in consideration? They are, at the very least, non-random.

[Chiki]

Depends on if it's available without internet connection.

[Camilla]

When are you going to add the children to the tier list?

I'm curious to see a few of their rankings.