Alternate HM tier list

[Chiki]

I actually put Maribelle and Lissa with Rescue in top tier. Though I'm open to dropping them to high.

Maribelle and Lissa without Rescue.. bottom sounds right to me.

I'll move Henry and Ricken up to mid, but where?

[Florete]

But Sumia doesn't have to wait for a second seal! She saves at least a turn from Chapter 5 and more in the future. Also once reclassed to gain flying Sully and Panne need a weapon rank to gain 1-2 range which is nice to have in rout maps.

Sully doesn't need to re-class but can if she wants and exists for longer than Sumia with better stats. Sully wins.

[Hawk King]

R!Anna and Libra should be above R!Mariabelle.

Sure, she has 7 movement but her base MAG is a 6. She needs to gain 6 MAG (or 4 + a tonic) to have more than a 5 rescue range. Based on this, I could see R!Lissa going above her too.

[Redwall]

I actually put Maribelle and Lissa with Rescue in top tier. Though I'm open to dropping them to high.

Maribelle and Lissa without Rescue.. bottom sounds right to me.

I'll move Henry and Ricken up to mid, but where?

Yeah, I noticed that Maribelle and Lissa with unrestricted Rescue were in top, but what I'm telling you now is that most drafts I've seen tend not to ban Rescue entirely--they instead allow one use of Rescue per player phase, and that for this reason, the bottom-tier Lissa and Maribelle should be re-evaluated assuming a single use of Rescue per PP if you want your tier list to be relevant for drafting.

I could see Henry in the upper part of mid just because mobility is so important and since if he needs to see combat, his Spd is the only thing that needs fixing. Can't see Ricken going above Miriel at best since he's kind of bad.

[Chiki]

I suppose I'll change the Rescue rules and say "full Rescue."

Will be posting again with a fully updated tier list.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Olwen

[Chiki]

Rules

1. Rescue is allowed once per map unless stated otherwise for the character.

2. Paralogues visited as soon as possible.

3. No Spotpass, Spotpass gifts or buying items from Spotpass.

4. No Renown items allowed.

5. No DLC chapters played.

Key Terms

With Galeforce = Galeforce allowed; unlimited uses.

Without Galeforce = Galeforce not allowed at all.

Full Rescue = Rescue allowed to be used an unlimited number of times.

Deity Tier

Female Avatar (with Galeforce)

Turnshaver Tier

Sumia (with Galeforce)

Cordelia (with Galeforce)

Male Avatar

Female Avatar (without Galeforce)

Olivia (full Rescue)

Frederick

Anna (full Rescue)

Libra (full Rescue)

Top Tier

Olivia

Sully

Stahl

Sumia

Cordelia

Lissa (full Rescue)

Maribelle (full Rescue)

Panne

High Tier

Anna

Chrom

Lon'qu

Nowi

Mid Tier

Lissa

Maribelle

Gaius

Tiki

Cherche

Tharja

Henry

Low Tier

Say'ri

Libra

Miriel

Vaike

Gregor

Ricken

Kellam

Bottom Tier

Basilio

Flavia

Virion

Donnel

How should I change the tiers assuming that the Avatar gets the first Second Seal?

I also might add a couple more tiers. It looks crowded.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Olwen

[Anouleth]

If sully or panne are reclassing I. Ch8, then Avatar isn't flying and working on Galeforce until ch12

This is without Galeforce. The matter at hand is whether Sully or Panne are better or worse than Sumia in an environment where Galeforce is banned. Obviously, in such an environment, denying Avatar the opportunity to get Galeforce is a non-issue.

LonQu costs a seal, which arguably caused Panne to drop straight off of the tier list.

Guess what; Panne also costs a seal.

How should I change the tiers assuming that the Avatar gets the first Second Seal?

Are we now assuming that 1. Avatar is always being used and 2. Avatar is always getting the second seal? So much for considering varying contexts. Edited May 14, 2013 by Anouleth

[Chiki]

Do drafts ban the Avatar? I only consider contexts which actually exist.

[eclipse]

Drafts usually make Avatar free (I think).

[Anouleth]

Do drafts ban the Avatar? I only consider contexts which actually exist.

So, you're saying that it's impossible to play FE13 without using the Avatar and giving him or her the first Second Seal?

[Chiki]

It's possible to play the game in a swastika formation, but why should we play like that?

Only contexts which are commonly used by others should be considered. If you can find examples of drafts wherein the Avatar isn't used, then I will grant your argument.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Olwen

[Da Bear]

Sully doesn't need to re-class but can if she wants and exists for longer than Sumia with better stats. Sully wins.

Not really, Sumia has Galeforce and flying. Sully doesn't (unless she takes a second seal).

Sumia wins.

[Chiki]

Uh, we're talking about Sumia without Galeforce.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

IMO Sully wins

Sumia's biggest contribution before Wyvern Sully at chapter 8 is like chapter 7(Cord joined) and Paralogue 3

After that Sully gained Flying alongside easier stats growth because she reclassed. While Sumia is stuck breaking the game as a knight

Edited May 15, 2013 by JSND

[Da Bear]

IMO Sully wins

Sumia's biggest contribution before Wyvern Sully at chapter 8 is like chapter 7(Cord joined) and Paralogue 3

After that Sully gained Flying alongside easier stats growth because she reclassed. While Sumia is stuck breaking the game as a knight

Sully going WR requires Panne not going WR and Avatar not going into a flying class.

Also sorry forgot that this was Galeforceless Sumia, still think she should be higher.

Also reclassing Sumia into knight is stupid.

Edited May 15, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Chiki]

Tier list updated with 3 new tiers.

[Da Bear]

Is Lon'qu really doing enough to be high tier?

[Chiki]

Personally I think he's mid tier material, but we'll see what others have to say.

[Da Bear]

Personally I think he's mid tier material, but we'll see what others have to say.

He lacks a mount is his main problem, the game gives you three or four great mounts early on and between them and the avatar most of your team gets left behind barring specific situations.

[Redwall]

Maybe we should establish a set of complexity ratings before further discussing character rankings.

[Da Bear]

Maybe we should establish a set of complexity ratings before further discussing character rankings.

The problem with doing that is that saving turns is saving turns. Having something like that in RD is a good base but in this game everyone shows up and stays the entire game, so saying that the chapters that character x is great in aren't as important as the chapters character y is in doesn't work.

[Redwall]

The goal of this tier list is ostensibly the same as the goal of Olwen's other tier lists: we want to minimize complexity-weighted turncounts while getting decent reliability. So if Sully saves a turn in a chapter with 4/5 complexity, then that would correspond to her saving 0.8 complexity-weighted turns. If Gregor saves two turns in a chapter with 1/5 complexity (0.4 CW turns), then Sully would have the advantage (0.8 > 0.4) if they had no other opportunities to save CW turns.

[Chiki]

I was avoiding doing the complexity ratings because they're hard. >_>

Or at least the chapters are all pretty much the same with little variation (apart from the first few chapters).

They still need to be done though.

[Da Bear]

I was avoiding doing the complexity ratings because they're hard. >_>

Or at least the chapters are all pretty much the same with little variation (apart from the first few chapters).

They still need to be done though.

I'm not sure... I mean in absolute LTC isn't a turn saved in one map just as important as one in any other?

[Chiki]

I'm not sure... I mean in absolute LTC isn't a turn saved in one map just as important as one in any other?

Should FE10 Edward be top of top tier for saving 50 turns or so from Chapter 1-P?

My argument is that if it applies to one FE game, it applies to all of them. This is definitely a relevant, on-topic discussion. I can't even think of any FE13 examples for this since complexity is kinda irrelevant here. But it applies regardless.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Olwen