Lunatic+ playlog/guide/walkthrough - COMPLETED

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Moreso the former. I'd like it to be reasonably repeatable. I realize that the run will need to be reset somewhat often just because of the nature of early crit skills like Gamble and Zeal and random level ups, but I really would like to minimize the amount of resetting. Of course, whether or not that's truly realistic will come to light as I work my way through the rest of the maps up to and including chapter 6 (and 9 and paralogue 4, if I decide I'm going not going to let them throw themselves under the bus).

[Knusperkeks]

Offense, defense, melee, range, it doesn't matter. Can't we just agree that speed is vital and try to work out a strategy from there? It has to start somewhere.

Even if you do not get good growths in speed, with an asset in it you won't get screwed over in speed. That has to be worth something, right?

I don't want to utilize a strategy which works perfectly under the right circumstances if I have to reset and do everything all over again when the circumstances are not favorable. That's like saying "it works always, 60% of the time".

Interceptor made his "reliable clear" strategy and chose his stat requirements under the assumption that all enemies have every single L+ skill in the game.

Obviously there are times when you get killed by a gamble crit, but that's unavoidable without a luck asset. If you go for a luck asset, even more things can go wrong. As I already said, it's about taking calculated risks. All we can do is find the path to reduce risks, or shift the risk factor to a point not long after the beginning of the chapter, so the strategy is viable in classic L+.

The worst that can happen is that you sit half an hour at paralogue x and suddenly your child character dies because that mother******* reinforcement came in with Aegis+, Counter and Zeal and crit you with his 1%, which you normally would have survived even with taking counter damage (surviving counter is easier when the enemy has pavise+/aegis+). I was furious lol.

Again, if taking lethal risks is unavoidable, shift the riskiest maneuvers to the beginning of a chapter so that it can be reset without losing too much time or progress.

A wise man once said that the best way to win is to prevent all outcomes which could lead to yourself losing, but L+ doesn't let you do that, at least not in the early chapters. Something's gotta give.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Yeah, Speed is looking like the optimal Asset with which to reduce risk. The theme around both mine and Interceptor's strats seems to be that there's certain Speed thresholds that make everything easier (that and Magic, but a non-Magic Asset has a lot less ground to cover when it comes to Magic thresholds than a non-Speed Asset trying to get to the Speed thresholds). And since a quite a few of the hits that kiting can't avoid can be tanked by the scrubs, Def thresholds aren't quite as imperative.

I should also add that early game is never quite safe from Gamble or Zeal, even with a Luck Asset. Those crit rates generally overtake Robin's Luck when not stacking up the +10 Dodge from supports (and it's not feasible to dedicate 3 extra characters to negating that crit for every engagement when these chapters are huge rushdowns). And even if Robin /were/ to be Luck Asset and pick up Luck every level and be immune to Gamble crit levels when off on her own, the others still need to take hits and will generally have listed crit against them (their Luck is usually even low enough for Zeal to have listed crit too). Non-Luna+ crits can sometimes be survived by beefy enough characters (usually Fred and Robin), but a Luna+ crit will insta-blick anyone, end of story. I've accepted that this can be a thing and that's why I've been looking at reducing risks elsewhere because the last thing I want to do is compound risks (especially when my goal is to beat the game without ever resetting a chapter, where small risks can clump together into a black Katamari of impending death).

[Vascela]

I find it odd that you think Def thresholds aren't as imperative as Spd. You need 11 Spd for chapter 2, which is 5 off non-asset base. You will probably be around level 10 entering chapter 2 (so that's 2 chapters of pretty intensive resetting). With 9 level up, you basically only need ~half of them to have Spd. Chapter 1 wants 11 Def for the archer without Luna+ to deal 0 damage to Avatar (which is incredibly good at reducing failure). Except 11 Def is hard to come by since it's a chapter shorter (with only 6 level ups just doing the prologue). It's my opinion that Spd asset is less forgiving than Def asset.

[Knusperkeks]

Because we want to reduce the amount of resets required to get a run going.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Except I have a strategy that doesn't rely on Fort tanking, which means not having to deal with repeated Archer hits. I'll try to get it all together for posting in my topic tonight, but I'd like to note that I got this strategy to work out when I entered the chapter with only 21 HP and 9 Def (yes, my +Def Robin gained an epic 2 HP and 1 Def over 6 levels), while the enemy brought Luna+ on 6 of their 8 units.

Since all my saves are in chapter 2 (where level 10 +Def Robin has a whole 10 Def and... I think it's 23 HP, yet Interceptor's strat still works), I'll have to replay up to that in order to get the screenies, though, so I can use that run as a test to double-check my strat when using +Spd.

[Vascela]

Because we want to reduce the amount of resets required to get a run going.

Let's take a look at +Def/-Skl vs +Spd/-Skl

Level 7 (+Def/-Skl)

Def - 11

Spd - 9

Level 10

Def - Survivability threshold reached by prologue

Spd - 11 (assuming you round at 10.5); Spd threshold reached

Level 7 (+Spd/-Skl)

Def - 8.1 (3 short of a nice benchmark)

Spd - 12 (when 8 used to be the old goal; +4 over recommendation; still great stat)

Level 10

Def - 9 (threshold reached)

Spd (already reached by prologue)

The only difference is that +Spd has chapter 1 that's slightly more reset intensive.

All that said, I am interested in your setup for chapter 1 (and all the benchmarks that you think you need).

[Knusperkeks]

What is this defense and speed threshold you're talking about, exactly?

[Vascela]

Chapter 1 11 def nullifies archer (no Luna+, else reset, but you should also reset if the boss has Luna+); 8 Spd means Mercs don't double you.

[Knusperkeks]

Enemy data: http://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Awakening_LM_Enemy_Data:_Chapter_1

Your strategy assumes Frederick pair-up on top of a fort.

My strategy was to kite enemies in a circle, using the leapfrogging trick to gain distance. I had Avatar paired with Chrom, which builds support and gives +3 speed. We need 13 speed to double the fighters in ch. 1. That means we need 10 total speed to double them. That's +2 over the base for +speed.

We can use Frederick independently, pair him up with Sully or Virion for example, they can tank shots if necessary, thanks to Frederick. Boss having Luna+ doesn't hurt as much if you have multiple characters taking hits every other turn.

This is not a fully developed strategy with all moves scripted, since the enemies move differently depending on your avatar's stats. It could be that they will suddenly jump on a different unit just because your avatar has 1 def more than the other unit.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Vascela]

It's worth noting that it doesn't matter whether or not you double certain enemies. I find chapter 1 to be more dependent on whether the Luna+ users have Vantage and/or Hawkeye. Non Luna+ is not a threat as long as you held 11 def (going 8 def makes non-Luna+ enemies a threat)

I want to work around different assets, but the first thing I should ask "what do I want to accomplish in chapter 1." Since the answer is very obvious for chapter 2 (as Interceptor has it outlined.

To live 2 Luna+ hits from fighters (20 AT), you would need ~31 HP, 10 Def (the ideal least), or 29 HP and 12 Def (something I'll have to settle for). I think I'll rig a +HP/-Luk Avatar in prologue and see what I can conjure up. If I'm assuming that I will use a Chrom pair up, then I'll see if I can get 10 Spd. 15 damage means 9 Mag + Thunder or 11 + Bronze Sword Str to ORKO. On the other hand, I could opt to not ORKO and simply have Frederick take the first hit, and have Robin clean the kill (as Frederick will not ORKO without a Dual Strike). Forest will give +1 Def, and it's worth noting that I can shuffle Lissa to give +2 Mag (and lowering the Mag requirement by 2). And I might be able to shuffle the other Str pair ups as there are more options ranging from +2-+4)

6 level ups puts me at +7(+5) HP (which is fine since SF is inaccurate and Robin's HP growth with asset is over 100%, still a pain), +4 Spd (to double 8 Spd fighters), and +4(+3 if I can plan forests) +6(+5 if I can plan forests)) Def. +4(+2) Mag and/or +5(+1 or +3) Str (so probably opting for Mag if I want to go a Chrom route)

I'll need at least +1 Spd in chapter 1 as well, but that's not my concern right now.

What's your (or anyone's) opinion on those marks before I even start? I don't know how I will tackle chapter 1 right now, but I think it's worth investigating to see if these seem like numbers solid enough to work with.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Vascela

[Knusperkeks]

+HP, -Luck Avatar base at lv 1:

24 HP @105%

6 Str @50%

5 Mag @45%

6 Spd @50%

6 Def @45%

I fail to understand what all these numbers mean, exactly. Especially this part:

+4(+3 if I can plan forests) +6(+5 if I can plan forests))

[Czar_Yoshi]

You're getting in on this too? Awesome.

At the moment this is mostly trial and error- with Pro going so well with the new bottom strat (check KTT's topic if you haven't seen it), reaching Cht.1-2 for testing is very quick, so it'll be better at this point just to rush in before much more theorycrafting and see what happens.

When I've used +HP in the past, though, the place it shone the most was in Cht.3 while holding chokepoints, since it usually gives Robin another turn even with Luna+ to take out the Archer so Lissa can safely stand behind him. I don't remember what happened in Cht.1.

[Vascela]

@K

+4 Def to reach that desired survivability threshold. +3 + forest gives the same survivability (as forests give +1).

@Czar

I use the old, old prologue strat of having Lissa pair into Chrom into an empty space; Fred + Robin (unequip Robin) kill top merc. Enemy phase other merc kills himself on Fred and he weakens both Barbs. T2 Move back and unequip Fred if bottom mage doesn't have Luna+, keep it equipped if he does), switch Robin equips bronze sword. Enemy phase double KO, robin equips thunder (trade for vuln if necessary). *Trade Lissa both Vulns and heal Robin (if necessary).

I give Lissa both Vulns because I want to say it has some ties to RNG whether or not the mage attacks. He usually attacks Robin. He will never attack Robin a second time if Robin gets +1 Res after the first hit (and first level up). That being said, the worst possible scenario ends up with level 2 + 35 Exp Robin. Then it's a matter of dumping Chrom + Fred into bottom right corner and Robin + Lissa in the top right.

edit: just did KTTs thing (with marginal changes) and got to 3 + 48 exp on Robin the Kreygasm is real

Edited February 27, 2015 by Vascela

[Knusperkeks]

+HP, -Luck Avatar base at lv 1:

24 HP @105%

6 Str @50%

5 Mag @45%

6 Spd @50%

6 Def @45%

Probability:

+7 HP: 26.5%

+5 Str: 11%, +3 Str: 66%, +1 Str: 89%

+4 Mag: 26%, +2 Mag: 84%

+4 Spd: 34%

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Hmmmm, durability thresholds are actually a bit tight with +Spd because Robin needs 25 HP and 8 Def or 23 HP and 9 Def by level 8 (my Prologue strat leaves her at 7 and a high amount of change and she should pick up two kills before engaging the boss) for route A, in order to take on a Luna+ boss twice with healing from Lissa (either 10 or 11, depending if she gets +1 Mag) in between, a +2 Def support on both engagements and a Woods tile on the second engagement. Technically, this only comes up if the boss has both Luna+ and Vantage+ (8% chance if all abilities have an equal chance to spawn?), but still. Otherwise, the answer to everything else is kiting.

[Vascela]

I'm gonna tackle this a different way: 1 Luna and 1 Vanilla enemy. This would certainly lower the required survivability while still giving the opportunity to fell two foes in a sitting. Let's say it's 29 (even though +HP secures 30) HP, 8 Def vs 20 AT. First does 16, second does 12 so that's definitely something I can deal with. Especially now that def is certainly out of the question to deal with (if +HP secures a benchmark, then it's just getting +2 Def off base). On top of that, it's only +1 off base on a forest (which is what I want to deal with). Right now I'm just perfecting your prologue right now (very subtle, but simple changes).

Looking at RNG for level ups, I want to rig 10 Spd (so +4 off base if I'm using HP asset).

On average, it might be worth considering +Spd since HP growth is already really high. Although HP asset completely removes any RNG revolving around HP.

For prologue, here's my thoughts one what I've added:

Lissa can pair into Robin and attack the right Myrmidon for 15 exp, but if you keep Lissa at the far left unpaired, then Robin just gets the consistent 10 without dealing with Bandit movement RNG. If bandit moves too far east, Fred can outrun back to starting position (and then later tally back to the right side of the map). Either way, the biggest change is to hand Frederick to MU--not Lissa. This lowers MU's AT stat to milk exp better.

I also leave Chrom and Frederick down in the bottom right instead of bringing them up top. MU and Lissa can deal with the mage up top (preferably without Luna, but it just takes up Vuln uses). In the far right two tiles, you can drop Lissa on either side of the river to heal MU for a turn (then hop back onto MU's back). If you have at least 8 Spd, then you won't get doubled by Myrmidons (this is after you blast the Barbs for levels). It's pretty simple to follow too. Once the enemies line up from 2 range, it's safe execution with thunder.

edit: I also leave the supporting unit unequipped always. It's a reset at the 2nd barb, but it's better exp in case you get an extra DS when you don't want one anyway.

edit2:

Terrible, terrible miscalculations. Idk where I got the math to think 9 Mag + Thunder ORKO the 29 HP (potentially 34 with HP+5) Barbs lol. I definitely need at least 12 Mag (which is 7 off base and not happening). The Str route is different: I look at Frederick vs Chrom pair up (which means a knock down to Spd). Going Spd asset and hitting 12 Spd (4 off base w/ asset) and 10 Str (4 off base) deals with non-HP+5. So getting +6 Str secures even HP+5, so I'm not very encouraged to look at that.

In the situation they don't have Hp+5, I can also consider virion/sully pair up (whichever one Robin gets, Frederick will get the other since +2 Str pair up from Frederick base OHKOs Mercs w/ silver lance. This seems much more plausible. I'm leaning towards Sully for Robin since she provides +1 Spd, while Virion just gives the AT values for Fred. When dealing with Archer, I would need 13 Str and Chrom support (giving me Spd to double @ 12 as well). Maybe just play around HP+5 with Fred support (toggled on and off if necessary).

Final notes/desired stats before restarting the prologue:

+Spd/-Luk or +Str/-Luk

Hp - 29

Str - 10

Spd - 12

Def - 8

Edited February 27, 2015 by Vascela

[Knusperkeks]

This whole concept is flawed, you will never get to 29 HP when you start with 19 at base and have 6 level ups time.

[Vascela]

This whole concept is flawed, you will never get to 29 HP when you start with 19 at base and have 6 level ups time.

duhfsdhfds

Never do math at 1am. Maybe ditch 2 HP life, and just toy with one Luna+ hit (which base can live)

[Knusperkeks]

Update for Chapter 16: Naga's Voice

I'm starting to consider making Lucina's final class Assassin, for Sword and Bow access. What do you think?

Edited February 27, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

The Silver Lance only 1HKOs if the Merc isn't on a Woods tile (I actually take advantage of this in my guide to eliminate one and save the other for feeding to Robin; my guide is now up in my Resetless topic if you want to see it). The same goes for the Archer (I have to utilize this in route B because even though I'd rather Robin duel him for EXP, the movement of the Boss doesn't allow for it).

It's also worth noting that if base Fred is standing on a Woods tile and has a Virion support (or Sully, but Virion is preferred, because it just takes one more engagement to get to C support with him), he can face tank both Mercs and a Fighter, even if all three have Luna+, in which case he'll live with 1 HP.

Funny moment when taking my screenshots: being perfectly accurate to the guide was ruined by being too Spd blessed. With Sully support, my Robin was doubling the Boss. Ended up going through the movement motions without attacking with Fred because he would have killed the Boss at that point.

EDIT: Lucina as Assassin makes sense bow-centric run. I'd say swords are 'meh' and that another Sniper could be considered when running a +Spd, (because tankier), but Parallel access can actually be pretty important if Lucy is gonna be the one helping to take down Grima. Just keep in mind for any point where she's leading that Assassin has really bad Def when it comes to fighting late-game enemies (enemies who, if they don't have Hawkeye, have uncomfortably high levels of hit, thanks to all those free +hit skills and hacked forges; it seriously messes with dodge tanking).

Edited February 27, 2015 by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi

[Czar_Yoshi]

I prefer BK to Assassin for Bows+Swords because it's got extra Mov/Def (and isn't bound to Robin!Lucina), but it's an idea that might be worth trying. P.Falchion access is primarily useful against Grima and as a free Concoction- 20 HP recovery is pretty weak lategame but there are still times when it can save you.

One possible idea though is to pack Hit+20 on a Bow/Swd class and try to hit the Swordbreaker Wyverns in Cht.24 with it while leading. With +15 from WTA, +15 from S rank and +20 from Hit+20, you actually break even against SB. The Hit (and probably damage too) would still pale against Bows but you'd be able to hit Pavise instead of Aegis and fight on EP if Counter isn't present.

[Interceptor]

I feel like Assassin is only really useful if you have enough time to get Pass (which is great). I don't think you'll get there in time for it to be handy though, not even with Veteran. I also like BK's Pair-up bonuses better for Laurent.

You can always reclass Lucina back to Great Lord or something for the Grima fight, assuming that you gave yourself enoguh headroom with levels to allow reclassing to promoted.

[Knusperkeks]

You can always reclass Lucina back to Great Lord or something for the Grima fight, assuming that you gave yourself enoguh headroom with levels to allow reclassing to promoted.

That's what I was planning to do. Have her pair up with A-support Morgan. I can also make Chrom a Great Lord and pair him up with Morgan. Grima isn't much of a concern to me.

I've just not really been sure about what to do with Lucina once she gets Bowbreaker. I was leaning towards sniper. Exalted Falchion is great, and Chrom is strong. He can easily Dual Strike Grima into oblivion as a Morgan support.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Just keep in mind that Grima has 110 modified Avo. Damage from DSes isn't a concern- even base Chrom can do damage when DSing. But if reliability is a concern, his RNG is legitimately threatening.