The Veteran and Aptitude Thread

[Interceptor]

No one is saying you have to do an Avatar solo.

Including me. I just told you to consider a world where one isn't soloing with Avatar.

But it still doesn't change the fact Veteran Lucina and Morgan can't allow you to break the earlygame, which is undoubtedly the hardest part as your units aren't trained. Once your units are trained, however, you'll find that the midgame and lategame aren't really as important as having Veteran earlygame.

None of this relevant to the point.

[Chiki]

Including me. I just told you to consider a world where one isn't soloing with Avatar.

None of this relevant to the point.

You're better at avoiding the argument than Earth support Oscar is at avoiding attacks. There's nothing left to say.

[Interceptor]

You're better at avoiding the argument than Earth support Oscar is at avoiding attacks.

Rather, you're not paying attention to the weapon triangle: I have WTA vs. tangents and non sequiturs.

There's nothing left to say.

I'll interpret this as meaning that you've now imagined a world without an Avatar solo. In this world, we are training other units. But along the same lines as a solo, we're able to concentrate resources. Do you see any potential of a pair of instantly-usable child units with Veteran, as compared to children without?

We'll be taking baby steps here, since I don't want to lose you along the way.

[Chiki]

Even without an Avatar solo, one's units will already be trained and more than able to take on Lunatic mode. Earlygame is the hardest part of the game, and that's where Veteran is needed most. Even without an Avatar solo, Veteran is needed more in the earlygame than in the midgame or lategame.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Olwen

[Interceptor]

Even without an Avatar solo, one's units will already be trained [...]

Not necessarily. And even in the case where they are, Veteran children offer an opportunity to significantly add to whatever fighting force you are fielding (as compared to those without).

[...] and more than able to take on Lunatic mode.

Incidentally, Veteran also exists on Normal, Hard, and Lunatic+.

Earlygame is the hardest part of the game, and that's where Veteran is needed most. Even without an Avatar solo, Veteran is needed more in the earlygame than in the midgame or lategame.

Yes, your banality about availability; one of those things that's technically true while being useless to the issue at hand. The more pertinent point here, is that Veteran allows late-joiners to be more or less immediately viable as primary combatants, something that's actually helpful.

[Robinigo]

Veteran for me, it make training me and my daughters so much easier. This morning, i went support/level grinding with gerome,.who doesn't have veteran, and it was almost painful getting eight exp each time. I went grinding for two and change hours and he only made it through a class and a half, I got pavise, aegis, and renewal on my avatar all in an afternoon. It's my favorite skill, next to armsthrift, which gerome also lacks... I get why I was so bored now, i was using bronze weapons and not hautcleres and gungnirs. Plus I don't have any DLC, so, yeah... Veteran

[Chiki]

Not necessarily. And even in the case where they are, Veteran children offer an opportunity to significantly add to whatever fighting force you are fielding (as compared to those without).

Yes necessarily. The vast majority of the chapters prior to Lucina and Morgan are rout. So your units necessarily have to be trained... lol.

Incidentally, Veteran also exists on Normal, Hard, and Lunatic+

Why bring up the former two? Those are too easy to even discuss. Lunatic+ is relatively poorly understood at this time (what's good, what's not) and is pretty different from the other modes, so it's preferable not to discuss it.

Yes, your banality about availability; one of those things that's technically true while being useless to the issue at hand. The more pertinent point here, is that Veteran allows late-joiners to be more or less immediately viable as primary combatants, something that's actually helpful.

Why does that matter when you already have primary combatants? Why have more?

Surely it'd be more helpful in earlygame? Why don't you just admit that Veteran is worth more in earlygame, which is my entire argument?

[Saint]

Galeforce, followed by aptitude, then veteran. I never really used the third, and it has a time limit. Once you advance farther into the game, it's no longer useful. It also has no direct effects in battle or on the map. Aptitude is somewhat better, but once you cap or raise stats far enough it's pretty useless. I don't really understand the people who don't say galeforce is good at all, it's great if you use it for the right people. I can get the ones who say It's good enough to break the game (but this is typically only true if you had super overpowered and heavily grinded units), but I can't say I relate to the people who say it isn't good at all; it is definitely good enough to be in most character's endgame skill list. All in all, they each have their uses, so I don't think any are bad.

Now that I think about it, these three skills are at their prime worth at different parts.

Veteran is best beggining-mid game

Aptitude works from beggining-a little after mid but before endgame

Galeforce is best mid-endgame

Edited May 24, 2013 by Saint

[Interceptor]

Yes necessarily. The vast majority of the chapters prior to Lucina and Morgan are rout. So your units necessarily have to be trained... lol.

Not necessarily to the point where adding them would be irrelevant.

Lunatic+ is relatively poorly understood at this time (what's good, what's not) and is pretty different from the other modes, so it's preferable not to discuss it.

Or in other words, it's devastating to your case. In reality, the midgame arrival of a pair of Veteran units with a huge suite of reclass options is a godsend in Lunatic+. You cannot Nosferatank your way through that meatgrinder.

Why does that matter when you already have primary combatants? Why have more?

Why not have more? It's entirely possible that Morgan is still better over the rest of the game than some of your trained units.

Surely it'd be more helpful in earlygame? Why don't you just admit that Veteran is worth more in earlygame, which is my entire argument?

This is adorable. Do you know what a "truism" is? It's in the dictionary, and there's no shame in cheating. After we're on the same page there, see if you can understand why I think your truism is irrelevant to the discussion.

[Chiki]

Not necessarily to the point where adding them would be irrelevant.

The exp gained for every team is going to be very similar for most Lunatic playthroughs, as the chapters are rout. So yes, it is necessarily. Most teams are likely to be near each other in strength.

Or in other words, it's devastating to your case. In reality, the midgame arrival of a pair of Veteran units with a huge suite of reclass options is a godsend in Lunatic+. You cannot Nosferatank your way through that meatgrinder.

Not once did I mention Lunatic+, meaning that I am not considering it. I do not understand it well yet, and if wrong, I am willing to admit that Veteran midgame may be broken there. That does not deny the fact that it is not broken in Lunatic.

Why not have more? It's entirely possible that Morgan is still better over the rest of the game than some of your trained units.

There's no need. Midgame and lategame are not difficult enough to warrant such overpowered units. Why add more powerful units to an easy part of the game?

This is adorable. Do you know what a "truism" is? It's in the dictionary, and there's no shame in cheating. After we're on the same page there, see if you can understand why I think your truism is irrelevant to the discussion.

Too bad you didn't admit it 5 pages ago, lol.

[Loki Laufeyson]

No "all of the above" option?

I like all three. I tend to favor Galeforce and Aptitude more but Veteran is really nice. Its like Paragon without the Paragon.

[Interceptor]

The exp gained for every team is going to be very similar for most Lunatic playthroughs, as the chapters are rout. So yes, it is necessarily. Most teams are likely to be near each other in strength.

For unlikely values of "likely". This is a pretty ludicrous assumption, when one has no answer to who, how many, and what.

Not once did I mention Lunatic+, meaning that I am not considering it. I do not understand it well yet, and if wrong, I am willing to admit that Veteran midgame may be broken there. That does not deny the fact that it is not broken in Lunatic.

It also doesn't make julienne fries. But what both of those "facts" have in common, is that each have nothing to do with anything that I'm talking about. It's a tangent, because your point was irrelevant to begin with, but Lunatic+ does happen to undermine it.

There's no need. Midgame and lategame are not difficult enough to warrant such overpowered units. Why add more powerful units to an easy part of the game?

Is this a rhetorical question, or is it actually the case that you can't think of a single reason?

Too bad you didn't admit it 5 pages ago, lol.

The real tragedy here is that you thought your obvious point was being disputed in the first place; it means you've been blissfully unaware of the point for going-on five pages now.

[Tables]

Veteran can get one more user than Aptitude. The being locked onto a small amount of units is a trivial concern.

Aptitude allows you to get the stats faster 1 Aptitude level is better than 1.5 Veteran levels. As time goes along it becomes 2 vs. 3 and so on but eventually the Veteran person is such a high level that they level at around the same rate.

They're pretty even imo.

No, 1 Aptitude level is not better than 1.5 Veteran levels. Most character growths in this tend to hover around 40-50%, and more for HP. 2 Aptitude levels is about 320% growth extra, 3 Veteran levels is about 400% growth extra. By the time the decreased EXP rate evens that out, you're past earlygame and don't care anymore, and you're also getting new skills more quickly, which arguably matters more than the stat benefit.

[shadykid]

Aptitude is by far the worst since loldonnel is the only one who starts with it

Veteran is obviously the most OP skill in the game, however this doesn't stop Galeforce from being great postgame (where Veteran obviously becomes worthless) or in the later third of LTCs

[The Fush]

Aptitude is by far the worst since loldonnel is the only one who starts with it

Veteran is obviously the most OP skill in the game, however this doesn't stop Galeforce from being great postgame (where Veteran obviously becomes worthless) or in the later third of LTCs

The same lolDonnel who doubles as a Fighter and has the highest luck ever to fit Armsthrift as a mercenary while also having stupidly high stats if you bothered to train him

It's not that hard to grab a random bonus team, stab them with a few lances and send Donnel on his way.

[Tamanoir]

Well, I don't know if it had been answered yet, but can Veteran stack with Paragon ?

[Meteor]

It stacks. You get 3x experience when both are active.

[Wake]

Lulz. Lulz so hard. Stop the ad hominem, please! It hurts so badly!

I believe that this thread is beyond ridiculous. Both skills are incredibly useful in their own right, and I use them both with extreme prejudice. Honestly, I voted for Galeforce, just because I use it more. Of course, I didn't read the topic before I voted, an now I'm afraid for my life, but hey, that's what anonymity is for.

My final opinion: I voted for Galeforce, but all of the above would be the best answer.

[Tables]

The same lolDonnel who doubles as a Fighter and has the highest luck ever to fit Armsthrift as a mercenary while also having stupidly high stats if you bothered to train him

It's not that hard to grab a random bonus team, stab them with a few lances and send Donnel on his way.

If you're grinding, all you can really consider is caps (because why not grind everyone to caps if you're grinding?). And Donnel has terrible caps and only two worthwhile classes. In game, he's tough to train - not impossible, but his slow start early game (the hardest part) makes him really not worth it.

...My final opinion: I voted for Galeforce, but all of the above would be the best answer.

You should really check the definition of best. If three things are good it doesn't make them all best. Unless you genuinely think all three are perfectly equally useful?

[nflchamp]

Wait, wait, wait. Am I reading this topic right? There's an argument in here that Veteran is worthless mid-game because Veteran Avatar has already trivialized the game by that point. I feel like there needs to be an argument in here about how Veteran is clearly the best skill in the game because it can apparently trivialize everything, including itself.

But going to the Int-Olwen/Chiki discussion about Veteran mid-game, I feel Chiki has a point that the actual effect on completing the game is important when comparing the skills from that point forward. At the same time I feel his reason why Veteran is pointless is based on a ridiculous and extreme playthrough. If I'm not galeforcing over to the boss (for example, because I don't have a unit with galeforce yet), Veteran has obviously powerful effects by giving me a pair of extra units that can not only keep up with but flat out overpower the rest of the army.

[Chiki]

Ignoring his rhetoric, I think where Interceptor and I disagree is on the importance of midgame + lategame vs. earlygame. I think Lunatic midgame/lategame is not important compared to earlygame, because it's where the game is hardest (no well-trained units available to you). But once you do have well-trained units after earlygame, it seems that midgame + lategame can be cleared easily (at least in my opinion).

You don't need to agree with me that the Avatar is soloing Lunatic mode, though he can. Is it not a mathematical fact that teams, when played normally, will have similar strength in all Lunatic playthroughs, as the chapters prior to 14 are all rout with the exception of two?

Midgame/lategame is trivial anyway, because the vast majority of the chapters are boss rushes. Rout chapters are far worse. Maybe this is just my opinion, but do you guys not agree with this? That earlygame is a lot harder?

Edited May 25, 2013 by Chiki

[shadykid]

The same lolDonnel who doubles as a Fighter and has the highest luck ever to fit Armsthrift as a mercenary while also having stupidly high stats if you bothered to train him

It's not that hard to grab a random bonus team, stab them with a few lances and send Donnel on his way.

you go champ, spend 15 minutes grinding Donnel up to be decent while I spend 10 minutes grinding Avatar+someone else to be a god

[Scarlet]

It's not that hard to grab a random bonus team, stab them with a few lances and send Donnel on his way.

Doesn't work on Lunatic or Lunatic+, though. Anti abuse measures ahoy!

@Chiki: I had a grand total of three usable units until Lucina showed up - Chrom, Avatar and Lon'qu, although the latter didn't do all that great either (and ended up getting dropped a few chapters later). Everyone else was either dead, or so weak that the second they dared to enter the battlefield they would have been dead.

I assume I'm just an outlier?

[Chiki]

Doesn't work on Lunatic or Lunatic+, though. Anti abuse measures ahoy!

@Chiki: I had a grand total of three usable units until Lucina showed up - Chrom, Avatar and Lon'qu, although the latter didn't do all that great either (and ended up getting dropped a few chapters later). Everyone else was either dead, or so weak that the second they dared to enter the battlefield they would have been dead.

I assume I'm just an outlier?

One can solo Lunatic with the Avatar easily.

[Scarlet]

One can solo Lunatic with the Avatar easily.

That's not the point. The point is that a team of two or three units quite certainly has a different strength than a team of four, a team of eight, or a full team.

Unless you're saying that all players use exactly the same amount of units, your argument of "all teams will be similar in strength" doesn't make sense.