SSB4: SSB for Wii U and 3DS, maybe the NX and also your toaster!

[BANRYU]

Some people will find any reason to believe anything. That just doesn't make sense. As I said earlier in the thread, Sakurai seems more interested in keeping potential new characters as secret as possible until the time of their reveal.

Even though I'm more on the end of the spectrum of people who actually respects Sakurai for his design choices and looks up to him rather than hating him for implementing tripping and whatnot, I'll be the first to admit that Sakurai shows a fair bit of bias when it comes to his own ideas and characters, whether or not he means to. He probably just wanted to show off a trophy for a character that he liked or something, and I suppose there's nothing wrong with that.

[Anacybele]

I agree, Sakurai does indeed have some bias. He seems to put Kirby in just about everything, whether it's actually related to the series or not, and he made all three Kirby reps default characters in Brawl. Yeah. xP

But I think the guy is cool and he actually faces a lot of stress and such from his work. He had some arm trouble awhile back because of it, in fact.

[BANRYU]

It's not even that so much as it was that all three were major characters in Brawl's Adventure mode lol.

Actually my problem with his opinionation is less with his own characters and more with his tendency to get overly attached to his ideas, even if they're not good-- a big no-no for game design. For instance: I haven't played Kid Icarus myself, but Jontron said about it something along the lines of 'it's the coolest unplayable game I've ever seen' or something, in reference to its control scheme. Apparently Sakurai had said that that was just the way he wanted players to experience it, even if it was a suboptimal setup.

I have a hunch that his view of whether or not Ridley should be playable is a similar situation... >___> Though perhaps that's MY bias talking.

Anyway, I know Sakurai must go through a lot of shit for his work, and I know that he definitely doesn't get as much appreciation as he deserves when he's actually pretty creative in a lot of respects. Plus, he seems to genuinely enjoy what he does, and I can definitely respect that.

[kingddd]

It's not even that so much as it was that all three were major characters in Brawl's Adventure mode lol.

Actually my problem with his opinionation is less with his own characters and more with his tendency to get overly attached to his ideas, even if they're not good-- a big no-no for game design.

Pretty much I mean I was expecting some neat Nintendo enemies to battle in subspace emissary. Unfortunately 80% of them were original characters do not steal kind of guys that I really don't give a hoot. King dedede was the main guy saviour who looked like an enemy but wasn't an enemy in the end thing scheme that was already done to death in the Kirby series.

[Jedi]

If you think Kid Icarus Uprising is unplayable you obviously haven't played it or messed with its control options.

You guys also do realize its because he was afraid of being called out on bias that Metaknight and Dedede weren't in Melee right?

[BANRYU]

Pretty much I mean I was expecting some neat Nintendo enemies to battle in subspace emissary. Unfortunately 80% of them were original characters do not steal kind of guys that I really don't give a hoot. King dedede was the main guy saviour who looked like an enemy but wasn't an enemy in the end thing scheme that was already done to death in the Kirby series.

Yeah, I definitely agree with you that there was a lot of lost enemy-fanservice and plot potential in SSE. As far as that stuff goes, I'm grateful that Sakurai saw fit to up the fanservice factor so highly with Ridley... Though for me it's bittersweet, since it also feels like he got shafted from being playable. But eh, that's another topic...

If you think Kid Icarus Uprising is unplayable you obviously haven't played it or messed with its control options.

For instance: I haven't played Kid Icarus myself, but Jontron said about it something along the lines of 'it's the coolest unplayable game I've ever seen' or something, in reference to its control scheme. Apparently Sakurai had said that that was just the way he wanted players to experience it, even if it was a suboptimal setup.

You've got me there, chief. (Incidentally, I actually really want to play it, but I haven't gotten the chance yet)

Anyway, if that's all you took away from what I said, then you've missed the point. The point isn't that I was dissing Kid Icarus, but that I was illustrating the principle of game design that says you have to look at your own ideas objectively, and not get too attached to them so that your own opinion affects the quality of something. Most of the time, I think Sakurai's pretty good about that, but nobody's perfect.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you're trying to sell me on being on Sakurai's side...? Seeing as I'm already there...?

(we can nitpick things or people we like, can't we? ._. )

You guys also do realize its because he was afraid of being called out on bias that Metaknight and Dedede weren't in Melee right?

Don't get me wrong, I don't really care that he WAS showing favoritism in Brawl-- I mean, you gotta know with what you know, right? Who does he know better than his own characters? Anyway, that just seems like an instance of trying to prevent something in the wrong way. The fans outcried for more Kirby characters, and we got about the best choices we could ask for, there's nothing wrong with that-- some, though, might argue that he ended up being biased anyway in terms of how Meta Knight was balanced and about the SSE characters thing. Basically, the point is that it's okay to exercise that bias to an extent-- making them playable is an acceptable extent, but making them really really strong is going a bit overboard.

Anyway, I don't want to get too off-topic with this again. Sakurai has said that he's going to be getting outside input on the balance of the mechanics in Smash 3U, and I'm remaining cautiously optimistic that it will blend the best of Melee (fast-paced combat and good, balanced mechanics for the most part) and Brawl (diverse and fun character cast with a greater degree of competitive viability throughout).

Edited March 22, 2014 by BANRYU

[Anacybele]

What I personally don't get is why Luigi is still in the unlockable zone. He's actually been around longer than either Peach or Bowser and has had far more playable appearances and such, making him more recognizable, though only slightly. Imo, Peach should be the unlockable character while Luigi is default. Or keep Peach default, but make Rosalina the unlockable Mario rep since she's in now.

Also, I disagree that SSB4 should take Melee's fast-pacedness. Sakurai should do something more in-between. I had a much easier time with Brawl's slower pace than Melee's quickness.

[BANRYU]

Well... yeah, something in-between is what I was trying to get at. I prefer Brawl myself mainly because there are more characters that are more fun to use, (whereas in Melee tournaments you only ever see about 15% of the playable cast) but strictly speaking, Brawl has a worse mechanics and physics system than Melee does-- for me this is self-evident in things like the ridiculous movement and hitboxes of Giant/Tiny characters (hell, items will even grow and shrink with you for some reason) and the complete lack of momentum when you jump out of a dash; whereas in Melee these things were basically nonexistent, and the physics and mechanics were much more satisfying (although it was hardly perfect; I'm glad that Brawl allowed you to ledgegrab when you're not facing it and such, etc). It's just things like that, you know...?

So, for another discussion topic.. What sort of stages do y'all want to see in this game?

Personally, I'm happy to see Rainbow Road (I think it was confirmed as a stage, right?), but one Mario stage I've always wanted to see since Brawl was a Bowser's Castle level. As much as I love Luigi's Mansion, I was a little disappointed that the tracks like the Airship / Fortress themes from SMB didn't go to such a level, haha.

Edited March 22, 2014 by BANRYU

[PKL]

Anyway, I don't want to get too off-topic with this again. Sakurai has said that he's going to be getting outside input on the balance of the mechanics in Smash 3U, and I'm remaining cautiously optimistic that it will blend the best of Melee (fast-paced combat and good, balanced mechanics for the most part) and Brawl (diverse and fun character cast with a greater degree of competitive viability throughout).

Sorry, but that's wrong. Melee is better balanced than brawl too. Axe, a Pikachu player, gets pretty far into brackets of nationals, he once got Top 5 even! There's also Taj, with his ridiculous Mewtwo being a threat. Amsa, the Yoshi (so low tier), who placed 9th out of I think it was 600 in Apex 2014. While in Brawl the mechanics make the lower tiers unviable, period. And results are mostly Metaknights and Ice Climbers and insert some other high tier here.

EDIT: The better mechanics of Melee allow you to have limitless options even with low tiers. While Brawl's is too limited so bad characters cant really excel no matter how much you research.

Edited March 22, 2014 by PKL

[BANRYU]

I guess I was thinking about characters like Bowser or something; in Melee he feels really heavy and awkward, whereas in Brawl he still feels that way, but he also feels powerful and satisfying to balance it out.

...Maybe what I'm talking about is game feel instead of balance. Mewtwo is one of my favorite characters to use in Melee, but he still feels waayyyy more awkward than like 90% of Brawl characters. I guess that's what I mean.

[PKL]

I guess I was thinking about characters like Bowser or something; in Melee he feels really heavy and awkward, whereas in Brawl he still feels that way, but he also feels powerful and satisfying to balance it out.

...Maybe what I'm talking about is game feel instead of balance. Mewtwo is one of my favorite characters to use in Melee, but he still feels waayyyy more awkward than like 90% of Brawl characters. I guess that's what I mean.

Yeah, the thing is, he balanced the characters decently well in Brawl, but the mechanics make a lot of them unviable. The mechanics (like shieldstun being nonexistent, powershielding being too easy, canceling hitstun with any non-B move, no movement options, no l-cancelling, auto ledge sweetspot, etc) are the ones to blame.

Edited March 22, 2014 by PKL

[Jedi]

Thing is I know you haven't played Kid Icarus I was making a general term to the fact that Jontron is an idiot. Unique gameplay schemes are when done right fun. You haven't played the game yet you nitpicked the fact based on the view of another that is a pet peeve of mine. You can't judge anything unless you play it yourself.

Also with what PKL was saying. Even Link players (he is mid tier in melee granted) can do well in tournament standings and I hope that comes back considering Link is one of my favorite fighters to use.

[Anacybele]

Stages? My most wanted stages are the Kauku Caves from RD for FE and Treacherous Mansion from Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon. The Kauku Caves is my favorite chapter in RD, without a doubt, and Treacherous Mansion would just be SO fun to beat up people in. :D

Edited March 22, 2014 by Anacybele

[BANRYU]

I'll agree with you there. In any case, I won't pretend to have enough knowhow on the mechanics to know what specifically needs to be changed/added/kept/fixed from the older titles, but the bottom line is that I'm hoping for a solid balance between Melee and Brawl, using what was good from both of them.

EDIT @ JediSS: Allright, that's a fair point. Jontron admittedly can be a bit dumb silly about certain things; maybe that wasn't the best example, but I stand by the point that I WAS trying to make (Jontron and KIU's control schemes being more or less beside the point).

Kauku Caves.... are those the ones that are all full of fire and lava and shit? That'd be pretty cool, although I doubt that Fire Emblem will have more than one stage repped, since it's one of the less popular Ninty franchises... the Luigi's Mansion thing would be pretty cool.

Oh, another one I just recalled that might be neat was a Nintendoland stage with like the tower thingy and obnok Monita and such.

Edited March 22, 2014 by BANRYU

[PKL]

Thing is I know you haven't played Kid Icarus I was making a general term to the fact that Jontron is an idiot. Unique gameplay schemes are when done right fun. You haven't played the game yet you nitpicked the fact based on the view of another that is a pet peeve of mine. You can't judge anything unless you play it yourself.

Also with what PKL was saying. Even Link players (he is mid tier in melee granted) can do well in tournament standings and I hope that comes back considering Link is one of my favorite fighters to use.

See, this reminds me of Zelda. A character he actually buffed from Melee to Brawl in various moves. In Melee she was Mid Tier even though most of her moves didnt work properly. But in Brawl she's Bottom Tier, 3rd worst character in the game (arguably 2nd worst) despite all the buffs she received. Lightning Kick being harder and unrealistic to sweetspot in Brawl aside (massive nerf to her best Melee move) she only got buffs in everything, yet the mechanics make her even worse off. What Im hoping of Smash 4 is that the mechanics are a lot better than Brawl's. I at least want proper hitstun to be back and more shieldstun.

[Anacybele]

Kauku Caves.... are those the ones that are all full of fire and lava and shit? That'd be pretty cool, although I doubt that Fire Emblem will have more than one stage repped, since it's one of the less popular Ninty franchises... the Luigi's Mansion thing would be pretty cool.

Yep, and I want the falling flame rocks to be a stage hazard! Oh, the fun! :D

If only handheld stages will be in Smash Bros. 3DS, FE should be getting more than one stage for sure. Arena Ferox is the only one we have right now, and it's from Awakening, a 3DS game. Ike's games are the most recent home console FEs, and Sakurai will most likely take stages from them because they're the most graphically detailed, they're in 3D, and thus probably the easiest to replicate in a Wii U game. This will also give him more reason to keep Ike in the roster, so he's there to represent said stages. Or stage, if he only goes with one Tellius setting.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Anacybele

[Jedi]

See, this reminds me of Zelda. A character he actually buffed from Melee to Brawl in various moves. In Melee she was Mid Tier even though most of her moves didnt work properly. But in Brawl she's Bottom Tier, 3rd worst character in the game (arguably 2nd worst) despite all the buffs she received. Lightning Kick being harder and unrealistic to sweetspot in Brawl aside (massive nerf to her best Melee move) she only got buffs in everything, yet the mechanics make her even worse off. What Im hoping of Smash 4 is that the mechanics are a lot better than Brawl's. I at least want proper hitstun to be back and more shieldstun.

We can hope, also I think Sonic would benefit from more Melee mechanics too, and being more finished considering Sakurai had 6 weeks to make him, so some of his moves don't work as properly as they should.

Also back to Link I honestly hope his boomerang is back to his standard one considering the Gale one while it can do some fun things. Overall was a very very nerfed rang

[Anacybele]

I'm hoping that Link doesn't even use a boomerang this time. Skyward Strike instead plz. :D

It would be similar to Ragnell's shockwave attack in FE, only it would take a little time to fire and move slower, yet be more powerful and have a wider hitbox. To keep it balanced.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Anacybele

[Jedi]

I'm hoping that Link doesn't even use a boomerang this time. Skyward Strike instead plz. :D

It would be similar to Ragnell's shockwave attack in FE, only it would take a little time to fire and move slower, yet be more powerful. To keep it balanced.

Yes because Link needs another slow attack >.> with no versatility

[Anacybele]

Yes because Link needs another slow attack >.> with no versatility

"Another slow attack?" Link hardly ever seemed slow to me. :/

His boomerang is weak and sucks. I think the Skyward Strike as a replacement would help buff him. It'd be MUCH stronger than the lame boomerang.

Also, I never said that he could only fire it in one direction. If he's airborne, he can send it diagonally as well as horizontally.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Anacybele

[BANRYU]

Incidentally, why DIDN'T Ike have any shockwave attacks with Ragnell, I can't help but wonder...?

EDIT: The Boomerang is useful as like a versatile projectile, and in Brawl it has the gusty effect that can be really useful if utilized effectively. It's a good move. I dunno, maybe Skyward Strike could be like a new F-smash or something? But given the Ike/Ragnell question I just asked, I'm not really expecting to see it.

Edited March 22, 2014 by BANRYU

[Anacybele]

Incidentally, why DIDN'T Ike have any shockwave attacks with Ragnell, I can't help but wonder...?

EDIT: The Boomerang is useful as like a versatile projectile, and in Brawl it has the gusty effect that can be really useful if utilized effectively. It's a good move. I dunno, maybe Skyward Strike could be like a new F-smash or something? But given the Ike/Ragnell question I just asked, I'm not really expecting to see it.

I heard Sakurai was originally going to have Ike use it, but he deemed it overpowered. Which is stupid, because Aether was far stronger, yet Ike has it. Sakurai should've just dumbed it down like he did with Aether.

[Jedi]

"Another slow attack?" Link hardly ever seemed slow to me. :/

His boomerang is weak and sucks. I think the Skyward Strike as a replacement would help buff him. It'd be MUCH stronger than the lame boomerang.

Also, I never said that he could only fire it in one direction. If he's airborne, he can send it diagonally as well as horizontally.

You never played N64 or Melee did you. Where the Boomerang was literally one of his best attacks it could be used as a distraction, an attack, a set up. It had so many uses.

The Skyward strike would be slow and predictable and easy to avoid. Making it pretty much null outside of certain situations

[Anacybele]

N64, no, but I have played Melee, thank you very much.

The boomerang is weak and easy to avoid. The Skyward Strike wouldn't be as fast, but it'd be way stronger and have a much better hitbox. Making it easier to hit people and do damage. It would deal even more damage with a direct hit, a la Luigi's Fire Jump Punch.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Anacybele

[Jedi]

The boomerang is also a distraction to get people to move into another attack of Links and makes them think because its small and it moves irregularly. Sometimes its easy to avoid on purpose to serve a Link players interests other times it will be in the mix of a flurry of other attacks serving a purpose. Its a versatile attack that keeps opponents guessing with mind games

And the shockwave thing. Ike was originally actually going to throw Ragnell not use its shockwaves as fitting as it would be. But Sakurai decided on Eruption instead