SSB4: SSB for Wii U and 3DS, maybe the NX and also your toaster!

[Vashiane]

So by you guys' logic, if I disguise myself as, say, Bryan from my FE fic, that means he's female. Yeah, makes no sense. As I believe Nintendo's logic on it makes no sense.

No, that's not what we're trying to say Ana. If you - a female, dresses up as Bryan from your fic, that means you are still female. Just because you're dressing as a man doesn't change your gender. And if Bryan dressed up as you, he would still be male.

"Sheik" is basically a Halloween costume - you can dress up as anyone you want, but when you come home and take off the make-up and the outfit, underneath it, you'll still be you.

That's what we're trying to say, dear.

[Integrity]

(note: i have never given half a shit about the story to any zelda, let alone oot)

sheik only exists as a disguise of zelda, doesn't she? like, there isn't some historical figure 'sheik' who is not zelda in magic disguise who zelda idolizes and emulates for the 'sheik' costume? if sheik == zelda, then that should be that. i might be wrong on this.

with this base, the flaw in your analogy is that there exists a 'bryan' who you are dressing up as who is not 'anacybele'. therefore anacybele =!= bryan so it doesn't hold water at all. it's a hugely flawed analogy.

with regards to the multiple people calling sheik he: do any of them know it's zelda in magic disguise or are they all treating sheik as a different person entirely?

[Anacybele]

Bryan doesn't exist either though. He's just a figment of my imagination, a fictional character.

But this is getting pointless and off topic. And as I said, I'm tired of the debate. I just thought I'd explain it in a more civil manner.

EDIT: Vashaine: I realized that. I just felt that you all weren't quite getting what I was saying.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Anacybele

[Sunwoo]

Ana, let me try to explain the Sheik thing to you this way, by using myself as an example.

My username, Sangyul: it's a Korean name that I've only seen used FOR MEN. I got the name from a male character in a manhwa I was reading. I set my gender to male. I rarely correct people when they think I'm a dude. So, I guess "Sangyul" is male, right?

I'm not. I just happen to like the name more than most female Korean names, and I set my gender to male to avoid people hitting on me and/or so that they'll take me more seriously. But that still makes me female, and it still makes "Sangyul" female despite masquerading as a guy.

[ClevelandSteve]

Well, it's unrelated to the current discussion (for the record, I'd support Impa over Ghirahim and Groose or Midna over either of them, even though Midna has already been deconfirmed. And I personally don't believe we'll get another Zelda rep this time), but I have my own idea for a longshot pick.

Did you notice how (at least according to the SSBWiki) Kyogre has been revealed as Pokeball Pokemon but Groudon hasn't? I mean, I know Groudon isn't that likely, but, after the starters, it's probably the most likely Hoenn Pokemon AND it's body shape makes it one of the easiest legendaries to animate. Granted, there are some strong arguments against it:

1. Sakurai might not have known that the Gen III remakes were in the works at the time the roster was finalized, and Groudon can't really be a clone of any other character (then again, no one could have expected Ganondorf being a Captain Falcon clone) so the idea of it being a last-minute addition like Lucina is unlikely. Basically, if Sakurai was unaware of the remakes at the time he made the roster, there would have been no reason to add a Gen III rep.

2. It's two strongest points in favor are better filled by other Pokemon. Sceptile (or even Blaziken or Swampert, if Sakurai doesn't care about repeating types) would be a more likely Gen III rep, and Mewtwo would be a better choice for a legendary. Though Groudon ticks both boxes better than any Pokemon except Deoxys, and Deoxys is only available through special events while Groudon is plastered all over the Ruby/Omega Ruby side of the Gen III marketing.

3. Groudon is another "tough" Pokemon. Generally, Pokemon reps either strongly favor the more "cute" Pokemon (Between the first two Smash bros. games, the only "tough" Pokemon was Mewtwo), or have it be close to even (Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and Squirtle were the "cute" reps in Brawl, Charizard and Lucario were the "tough" reps, and Ivysaur could really count as either depending on your opinion). In Smash 4. we already have Greninja, Charizard, and Lucario representing the "tough side", with only Pikachu (and most likely Jigglypuff) representing the "cute" side.

4. It's too big. Groudon is called the "Continent" Pokemon for a reason. at 11'06" in height and weighing over a ton, Groudon is one of the biggest Pokemon in existence (and that's not even counting its even bigger Primal form, a likely Final Smash). Granted, Ridley fans have encountered and fought this argument for years, and Groudon being resized to slightly bigger than Bowser wouldn't be THAT weird... until you saw Kyogre come out of a Pokeball and Groudon looked tiny compared to its rival.

5. Speaking of Kyogre, having Groudon be playable while Kyogre was just a Pokeball mon would be odd considering the two of them are kind of a "set" together. This is actually probably the weakest argument, since Sakurai made Rayquaza (the third member of the "weather trio") a boss while the other two were Pokeball Pokemon in Brawl (not to mention Rayquaza living in a lake instead of the atmosphere shows that Sakurai doesn't really care about the in-game story too much when it comes to Pokemon). And Groudon is the only member of the trio who could conceivably function as a playable character.

Anyway, it's a very unlikely shot, but I would be overjoyed if Groudon was a Pokemon newcomer. The weather trio were all already in my top ten favorite legendary Pokemon, and TwitchPlaysPokemon led me to appreciate Groudon even more. (Speaking of TPP, Omastar for Pokeball Mon? Admittedly even less likely than Groudon being playable, due to the fact that the Omanyte/Omastar line only became popular earlier this year and Sakurai probably never even heard of TwitchPlaysPokemon except maybe an offhand mention from a Game Freak employee about something weird that foreigners are doing. But with Helix all things are possible).

Edit: Wow. Nearly two pages of Sheik gender discussion while I was typing all that out. I personally view Sheik as female myself, because Zelda is female. I mean, if I changed my account name to "ClevelandStephanie" that wouldn't make me a girl in real life. But other people have been over that already.

Edited August 6, 2014 by ClevelandSteve

[Ein]

From what I recall in OoT Sheik's gender only comes up like once from Ruto who may have just assumed because Sheik is fairly androgynous.

It really doesn't though since Sheik is only a disguise for Zelda so that Ganondorf couldn't find her so easily or something. I doubt Sheik hung around people all that much anyway since trying to avoid capture and stuff.

[Vashiane]

(note: i have never given half a shit about the story to any zelda, let alone oot)

sheik only exists as a disguise of zelda, doesn't she? like, there isn't some historical figure 'sheik' who is not zelda in magic disguise who zelda idolizes and emulates for the 'sheik' costume? if sheik == zelda, then that should be that. i might be wrong on this.

with this base, the flaw in your analogy is that there exists a 'bryan' who you are dressing up as who is not 'anacybele'. therefore anacybele =!= bryan so it doesn't hold water at all. it's a hugely flawed analogy.

with regards to the multiple people calling sheik he: do any of them know it's zelda in magic disguise or are they all treating sheik as a different person entirely?

It varies, some people see it as a complex, magical transformation, some people see it has Sheik =/= Zelda.

Bryan doesn't exist either though. He's just a figment of my imagination, a fictional character.

But this is getting pointless and off topic. And as I said, I'm tired of the debate. I just thought I'd explain it in a more civil manner.

We know this. We're trying to explain it civilly too.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Vashiane

[Jave]

What I don't get is why the "Sheik is male" supporters get so... acidic when someone argues the opposite. Even with no room for doubt at this point (as Nintendo has confirmed it), they still take this ridiculously defensive stance like if they're covering their ears and going LALALALALA to everyone.

It's almost like if... they refuse to accept the fact that Ocarina of Time fooled them through the entire game with Sheik's identity.

[Integrity]

Bryan doesn't exist either though. He's just a figment of my imagination, a fictional character.

But this is getting pointless and off topic. And as I said, I'm tired of the debate. I just thought I'd explain it in a more civil manner.

EDIT: Vashaine: I realized that. I just felt that you all weren't quite getting what I was saying.

except that you've already defined bryan (whether as a figment of your imagination or not) as a distinct character with (presumably) his own lore and story and gender: male. you're not bryan, bryan is a thing you wrote about and whatever. your situation is the same as 'masked marth' - as far as anyone in ylisse knows marth is just a legendary figure who didn't exist but that doesn't make lucina a man regardless of what people thought about her before she took her mask off.

sheik is zelda. there is not a sheik who is not zelda. there aren't any writings in-game about a sheik, there isn't any in-game lore about a sheik, there's nothing about a sheik in the legend of zelda ocarina of time that is not also zelda. zelda is sheik, sheik is zelda, zelda is a woman, sheik is a woman. i cannot find any room for debate here, i'm being really honest.

EDIT:

It varies, some people see it as a complex, magical transformation, some people see it has Sheik =/= Zelda.

it is a complex magical transformation (i'm pretty sure i've said that? idk) but isn't the brain, the soul in sheik still the soul that was in zelda? that didn't undergo any changes, the changes were entirely physical. she could have grown a bigger penis than mine and she'd still be she unless the game says otherwise, no?

EDIT2: this is literally integrity trying to reason something out instead of being dismissive about 'you fucking nerds' and it's about fucking zelda lmao

Edited August 6, 2014 by Integrity

[Anacybele]

Ana, let me try to explain the Sheik thing to you this way, by using myself as an example.

My username, Sangyul: it's a Korean name that I've only seen used FOR MEN. I got the name from a male character in a manhwa I was reading. I set my gender to male. I rarely correct people when they think I'm a dude. So, I guess "Sangyul" is male, right?

I'm not. I just happen to like the name more than most female Korean names, and I set my gender to male to avoid people hitting on me and/or so that they'll take me more seriously. But that still makes me female, and it still makes "Sangyul" female despite masquerading as a guy.

Exactly, you're masquerading as a guy. A guy named Sangyul. That's what I was trying to say.

Also, you just publically admitted your true gender. xP

[Vashiane]

Exactly, you're masquerading as a guy. A guy named Sangyul. That's what I was trying to say.

Also, you just publically admitted your true gender. xP

... ... I believe Sangyul told you she was female before hand. Unless I'm mistaken.

[charlie_]

But if Boron is Sangyul, then how is Sangyul a male?

[shadowofchaos]

Exactly, you're masquerading as a guy. A guy named Sangyul. That's what I was trying to say.

Also, you just publically admitted your true gender. xP

...Because she's frustrated at how you're taking this to a ridiculous level.

Whether or not her online persona is a guy, she is still female.

Whether or not Shiek is meant to be disguised as a guy, she is still Zelda. Zelda is female. There's no interpretation with Nintendo's stance. This is why everyone is getting on your case. Especially with how passionate you are about "canon". Nintendo saying it is about as canon as they can get.

Unless of course we take this to Evangelion levels of ridiculousness, ignoring the word of the official company.

Edited August 6, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[ClevelandSteve]

What I don't get is why the "Sheik is male" supporters get so... acidic when someone argues the opposite. Even with no room for doubt at this point (as Nintendo has confirmed it), they still take this ridiculously defensive stance like if they're covering their ears and going LALALALALA to everyone.

It's almost like if... they refuse to accept the fact that Ocarina of Time fooled them through the entire game with Sheik's identity.

I'm not saying that this is Ana's reason, but it's mostly because if Sheik is female then they can't use her for their Yaoi fanfiction.

[Integrity]

I'm not saying that this is Ana's reason, but it's mostly because if Sheik is female then they can't use her for their Yaoi fanfiction.

i'm gonna call that a touche, to be honest.

[Jave]

Exactly, you're masquerading as a guy. A guy named Sangyul. That's what I was trying to say.

But Sangyul is female. We all know that now.

[kingddd]

Groudon

Chances are, the masterball item isn't completely finished and the legendaries appearing in the demo are just temporary. The same thing did happen with a lot of things in the original Brawl demo that was later changed.

[Vashiane]

Bryan doesn't exist either though. He's just a figment of my imagination, a fictional character.

But this is getting pointless and off topic. And as I said, I'm tired of the debate. I just thought I'd explain it in a more civil manner.

EDIT: Vashaine: I realized that. I just felt that you all weren't quite getting what I was saying.

I missed this, sorry.

Well, if you ever want to talk about it again, you can always PM me so it doesn't clutter the main thread!

[Anacybele]

... ... I believe Sangyul told you she was female before hand. Unless I'm mistaken.

She did. I was pointing out that despite that she wanted to keep her gender secret, she just plublically revealed it. xP

But again, whatever. You guys obviously aren't going to change my mind, so why do we bother continuing this?

[Vashiane]

She did. I was pointing out that despite that she wanted to keep her gender secret, she just plublically revealed it. xP

But again, whatever. You guys obviously aren't going to change my mind, so why do we bother continuing this?

Most of the older forum members know anyway, so I doubt it matters that much. It's just a defense mechanism, since girls on the internet tend to run into... problems... with their gender.

[Jedi]

This argument is completely pointless.

Sheik is a disguise Zelda used due to her need to hide and her training in the arts of the sheika, she could have magically made herself more masculine yes, but st the end of the day. Sheik and Zelda are both she's and are one and the same.

Bickering about this is like saying when Cloud dressed up in drag in FF7 he became female during the mansion subplot

[Integrity]

thank you for that insightful comparison to further a discussion that was over

top stuff

[Anacybele]

Most of the older forum members know anyway, so I doubt it matters that much. It's just a defense mechanism, since girls on the internet tend to run into... problems... with their gender.

Oh, I see... I never had such problems, so I guess I wouldn't understand. I HAVE been mistaken for a guy a bunch of times though.

But to get the thread back on topic, whether or not there's a Zelda newcomer, I can see Sakurai revealing Ganondorf and/or a Zelda newcomer in September for Hyrule Warriors's release.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Anacybele

[Integrity]

ok now this is a derail lmao

at least sheik was tangentially related via zelda

consider this the end of that line of discussion please

[Anacybele]

Yeah... lol I edited my post to get back on topic, my bad.