Is Armsthrift overrated?

[General Horace]

yeah, for some reason I thought Hammerne was buyable in Brady's Paralogue, turns out I was wrong!

[Chiki]

I'd actually say celica's gate > waste. Even forged, waste hit rate sucks

Yeah, it does.

[Thor Odinson]

yeah, for some reason I thought Hammerne was buyable in Brady's Paralogue, turns out I was wrong!

It is if you get lucky, but it's not dependable like the locations listed, where there's actually good chance of them spawning. I wouldn't count on it showing up in any given run, but hey, no reason to not take advantage of it on the off chance it happens.

Edit: Here's the item distribution in Anna shops. Hammerne is categorised as a rare item. There's around a 30% chance of it showing up in one of the places chapter 24 and on, but only a 3% chance otherwise.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Thor Odinson

[BlueFire]

4 skills with LB.

I know you mean 4 variable skills on all characters, but I meant that I'd rather have 5 skills that assist in combat for Apotheosis. It's the final battle in my mind, so I'm willing to throw away gold in it. You can always hit the convoy for more weapons.

[Renne]

Is it the best skill? No. Is it useful? Yes.

It's like Galeforce. Is it essential? Not by any stretch of imagination. Can it be helpful dependunnon play style? Yes.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts.

It's more useful for grinding or for rare weapons like Aversa's Night or even some Brave weapons, but not something completely necessary. I won't go benching units simply because they can't learn Armsthrift or something ridiculous like that. I'm also quite lazy so if I like a weapon, it's nice to save my gold for other weapons that I may want to buy... like for units that can't learn Armsthrift.

[Donnel]

I know you mean 4 variable skills on all characters, but I meant that I'd rather have 5 skills that assist in combat for Apotheosis. It's the final battle in my mind, so I'm willing to throw away gold in it. You can always hit the convoy for more weapons.

I have armsthift for the sake of having legendary weapons. Since even after maximizing the possible amount of children with armsthrift. You still have 6 without, granting Lucina, Yarne, Nah with their exclusive weapons, remaining 3 children as staves users.

Giving you the options because "you Can but choose not to" , rather than "you can't even if you want".

Nidhogg seems weak as a bow, but Noire still use it when I'm searching for Double Bow.

They should make legendary weapons STRONGER than brave weapons, not other way round.

[Blademaster!]

From a tactical perspective, it's a skill of pure convience really only worth using for a handful of regalia weapons or for people who don't have the golden gaffe. From the way I've seen people talk about the skill, it's IMO the most overrated skill in the game by far. Then again, I never forge when I play anyway. There are much better skills I'd rather use than Armsthrift, like any breaker, Pavise/Aegis, dual *+, vantage, deliverer, *faire, etc.

[Florete]

I love Armsthrift. The ability to freely use legendary weapons (by the time you get a lot you should have units with pretty high Luck) is a given since 1) not everyone has Infinite Regalia, 2) even if you do a lot of players don't use it for the main game, and 3) even if you do play it, what you get is random.

But I like it even for the rest of the game because it means I can have multiple weapons on a unit and not worry about any of them running out during the map or at a bad time on enemy phase. This is most useful in the later maps. Armsthrift + Hellswath on Lunatic is very nice to have.

[Meteor]

I love Armsthrift too. I would use it on every character if I could. It's such a great utility skill that I don't mind sacrificing a little extra damage for it.

In Apotheosis I'd rather have 5 skills and just grind in Golden Gaffe.

There are, like, 10 useful skills you could take, and you don't need all 5 dedicated to maximum attack.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Meteor

[BlueFire]

I love Armsthrift too. I would use it on every character if I could. It's such a great utility skill that I don't mind sacrificing a little extra damage for it.

There are, like, 10 useful skills you could take, and you don't need all 5 dedicated to maximum attack.

You don't need many things to complete the secret path and you certainly don't need to be optimized. I was just stating my preference of going all-in on using up my gold and using more combat-related skills, only because it's the hardest battle and have no need for gold on that save afterwards.

[Airship Canon]

Yes, and "Bad Skill All around".

In game:

It's on Gregor (Low LCK), Inigo (Child, not getting in game on anything above Hard), Severa (Child, not getting in game on anything above hard). If you're going to be grinding, skip this because essentially, you jump to postgame, unless you're counting for second-seal availability (I.E. you don't get many until Ch 14 Unlocked (and that's assuming you pile drive for Nah.), or Ch16 Cleared) if you're not grinding, those second seals have better places to go than Donnel (who doesn't exist on Lunatic/Lunatic+, due to insane recruitment and getting 1-shot) or Cordelia (who should be going DF or FK anyways), and MU has much more important classes to go thru than Merc. By time SS's are common, going to Merc is detrimental.

Postgame:

Takes 15 minutes tops to get 999999 Gold with Golden Gaffe + GF User Deployment + Iron Weapons + Autobattle + Skip Actions.

Silver Card trivializes costs

Grinding:

999999 Gold + Silver Card =

2,857 Javelins (71,425 Uses)

2,666 Hand Axes (66,650 Uses)

1,249 Levin Swords/Short Spears (31,225 Uses)

1,142 Short Axes (28,550 Uses)

2,040 Nosferatu/Elfire (Elfire: 71,400; Nosferatu: 40,800)

1,562 Rescue (AT doesn't affect Staves so this doesn't really matter) (7,810 Uses)

If you're wanting more power at that...

909 Thoron (22,725 Uses)

1,418 Silver Swords (42,540 Uses)

1,282 Silver Lances (Also, Silver Bows) (38,460 Uses)

1,149 Silver Axes (34,470 Uses)

637 Tomahawks (15,925 Uses)

1,041 Bolt Axes (31,230 Uses)

833 Spears (20,825 Uses)

It's very simple to use those weapons and clear anything- while grinding, ideally you're soloing either Risen Skirmishes on Normal, which tend to have very minor amounts of enemies or you're on a map with Chrom Force Deployed- so you're paired up with him so you don't have excuses. The hypothetical scenario of being on the last use of every weapon in your inventory does not exist.

Apotheosis Use:

We're looking at Braves, which is what you use in Apo/Future Past/Sometimes in RnR3:

15 Minutes of GG + Silver Card still caps your Gold.

What's that give:

Brave Swords: 952 (28,560 Uses)

Brave Axes: 833 (24,990 Uses)

Brave Lances: 900 (27,000 Uses)

Celica's Gale: 1,162 (23,240 Uses)

Waste: 925 (27,750 Uses)

Basically, the "Have to spend more time in GG" point is moot. Even for Apotheosis. Rather, actually it's especially moot there.

Special Weapons

Infinite Regalia Exists.

It takes a maximum of 4 turns... with Iron weapons in the postgame.

You have no excuse outside of "I don't DLC" but if you're not DLC, refer to the "In game".

Aversa's Night- it depends on what the slot it, but if that happens to be Tomefaire going there in place of AT, AN only has 2 MT on Nosferatu... it can also be sold by Streetpasses, which given the vast majority of the player base will think that because AN is a great weapon for actual use, it's great for Streetpass too-- makes it exceptionally common to find on them. If you've been to a con, you can get hundreds of the things with in an hour or so, then there's the whole "go to McDonalds get 50 Streetpasses" deal that's about to go into effect. AN will very soon become reliably farmable. And, yes, even Outrealm Orders carry the damn things-- often.

TL;DR: Armsthrift doesn't accomplish much.

As for combat/mission clearing ability (I.E. vs. Most other Skills, Galeforce, etc.): AT is nil.

Utility: Paragon, Vet, and Apti (...Apti doesn't exist in game, and Paragon is kinda hard to get in game unless you break LB3, but that's easy enough. (Summon Arvis, give pile of Nos. Let him go ape**** on it, and you'll get a reliable paragon right there, without throwing off the actual EXP curve too bad) and Vet kinda breaks the game) all actually improve your characters in game. AT... won't be activating enough to actually matter.

[euklyd]

-snip-

Apotheosis Use:

We're looking at Braves, which is what you use in Apo/Future Past/Sometimes in RnR3:

15 Minutes of GG + Silver Card still caps your Gold.

What's that give:

Brave Swords: 952 (28,560 Uses)

Brave Axes: 833 (24,990 Uses)

Brave Lances: 900 (27,000 Uses)

Celica's Gale: 1,162 (23,240 Uses)

Waste: 925 (27,750 Uses)

Basically, the "Have to spend more time in GG" point is moot. Even for Apotheosis. Rather, actually it's especially moot there.

Special Weapons

Infinite Regalia Exists.

It takes a maximum of 4 turns... with Iron weapons in the postgame.

You have no excuse outside of "I don't DLC" but if you're not DLC, refer to the "In game".

-snip-

While I like the fact that you made your point with hard numbers, you forgot a couple things...

Regarding Braves... forged Braves cost significantly more than that, and that's what most people were talking about conserving. Forging a Brave Sword to have +5 Might, +15 Hit would cost (7.5 + 3.0) * 2100 = 22050. Add the original cost to that and a forged Brave Sword is 24150 gold.

That's 41 forged Brave Swords, which is significantly less than 952.

More when you add in the Silver Card, though.

Regarding Infinite Regalia... 4 turns perhaps, but you have no guarantee of getting the weapon you're looking for. I only have so many Ragnells (for example), even after hours and hours of grinding IR, and they only have 25 uses. If I then grind R&R3, I'm gonna start running out of Ragnells pretty soon.

[spoiler=Mt pedantry]

-snip-

Aversa's Night- it depends on what the slot it, but if that happens to be Tomefaire going there in place of AT, AN only has 2 MT on Nosferatu...

-snip-

I hate to be pedantic, but Aversa's Night is 15 Mt; Nosferatu is 7.

7 + 5 = 12.

AN has 3 Mt on Nosferatu.

Anyways, I happen to like Armsthrift quite a bit, as I am often far too lazy to grind Golden Gaffe or summon Spotpass teams and re-forge all my weapons, let alone give my weapons names.

Let alone grind Infinite Regalia to get enough Ragnells for my army of Heroes.

I think that Armsthrift isn't overrated, simply because no one's saying that it does anything besides save you time and gold and effort/hassle. As great as the Merc tree is, for me its main draw is Sol, not Armsthrift.

[Raven]

It's useful not having weapons break on you mid-chapter. One of the reasons why my Donnel is amazing, he can solo a chapter with only two or three uses left of a single Hand Axe.

[Donnel]

While I like the fact that you made your point with hard numbers, you forgot a couple things...

Regarding Braves... forged Braves cost significantly more than that, and that's what most people were talking about conserving. Forging a Brave Sword to have +5 Might, +15 Hit would cost (7.5 + 3.0) * 2100 = 22050. Add the original cost to that and a forged Brave Sword is 24150 gold.

That's 41 forged Brave Swords, which is significantly less than 952.

More when you add in the Silver Card, though.

Regarding Infinite Regalia... 4 turns perhaps, but you have no guarantee of getting the weapon you're looking for. I only have so many Ragnells (for example), even after hours and hours of grinding IR, and they only have 25 uses. If I then grind R&R3, I'm gonna start running out of Ragnells pretty soon.

[spoiler=Mt pedantry]

I hate to be pedantic, but Aversa's Night is 15 Mt; Nosferatu is 7.

7 + 5 = 12.

AN has 3 Mt on Nosferatu.

Anyways, I happen to like Armsthrift quite a bit, as I am often far too lazy to grind Golden Gaffe or summon Spotpass teams and re-forge all my weapons, let alone give my weapons names.

Let alone grind Infinite Regalia to get enough Ragnells for my army of Heroes.

I think that Armsthrift isn't overrated, simply because no one's saying that it does anything besides save you time and gold and effort/hassle. As great as the Merc tree is, for me its main draw is Sol, not Armsthrift.

True, how is armsthrift overrated when nobody said it does beyond what it is used for.

Helwrath/Bolt Axe/Aversa's night/Ragnel/Double Bow/Goddess Staffs are those regalia items I like to have but is very random for my to grind for in IR, and

macDonalds in my country never implement the 'relay of streetpass' system since nDS is not popular here =(

[Florete]

Stuff

Great, you've shown that money is abundant. But you missed some key factors:

1. As stated above, forges.

2. As I stated earlier, long maps and having multiple weapons that won't break on you.

3. Legendary weapons, Infinite Regalia or no. All the extra uses one can get after acquiring them if the Spotpass Paralogues are taken is extremely helpful. Think of something like The Radiant Hero, especially when not grinding.

4.

It's on Gregor (Low LCK),

He'll grow, and by later when it starts to matter he'll be saving ~50% of his weapon uses.

Inigo (Child, not getting in game on anything above Hard), Severa (Child, not getting in game on anything above hard)

I got both on Lunatic Classic (and every other child). Inigo is one thing, but what's wrong with Severa? Her mother is good and she can turn out quite helpful as well.

Mercenary is a good choice for Avatar to switch to if you aren't going for Galeforce since s/he keeps the Sword rank and can go to Hero and get Sol. Maybe not optimal but definitely a worthy choice. Morgan and any other possible Avatar child may want to do the same thing, partially for Armsthrift and partially for whatever else you want from the class tree. Hero having Axes (and therefore Hellswath access) is just icing on the cake.

I think that Armsthrift isn't overrated, simply because no one's saying that it does anything besides save you time and gold and effort/hassle. As great as the Merc tree is, for me its main draw is Sol, not Armsthrift.

This. It's not "ZOMGAMAZING," but "bad skill all around"? No.

[Algalon]

Like an earlier poster said, very convenient to have, but not necessary. I guess only Apotheosis is long enough to make it properly worth having, so that your weapons last all the way through it, but other than that, you'll have chapters complete before your weapons break and can get new ones between chapters. Even then, Chrom is forced on Apotheosis so the convoy is always there...

[Zerker]

Maximum Forged Alm's Blade, which has the most damage per swing out of all the swords in the game, HAS ONLY 10 DURABILITY.

I'd rather not have it break in the middle of R&R3 or Apotheosis.

[Interceptor]

Is Armsthrift overrated? This is a brain-dead question. It could be, and probably has been, but how does one even answer this particular phrasing?

I personally think it's only good for grinding. Postgame, you only have to worry about the Brave weapons anyway.

Well, you're wrong here -- to nobody's great surprise -- though it's mostly by omission. Armsthrift is useful any time that money is a factor, which includes a large number of no-DLC and/or no-grind runs that you'll see. And that is by no means an exhaustive list of runs where Armsthrift is good, just a couple obvious ones. Edited June 17, 2013 by Interceptor

[1% critted]

Is Armsthrift overrated? This is a brain-dead question. It could be, and probably has been, but how does one even answer this particular phrasing?

Well, you're wrong here -- to nobody's great surprise -- though it's mostly by omission. Armsthrift is useful any time that money is a factor, which includes a large number of no-DLC and/or no-grind runs that you'll see. And that is by no means an exhaustive list of runs where Armsthrift is good, just a couple obvious ones.

Being overrated is overrated.

[Thor Odinson]

There is the fact that GG and IR cost money to have even if we don't count grinding time. Granted, it's not a lot of money, but since it costs additional IRL money it shouldn't be assumed that everyone has it.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Maximum Forged Alm's Blade, which has the most damage per swing out of all the swords in the game, HAS ONLY 10 DURABILITY.

I'd rather not have it break in the middle of R&R3 or Apotheosis.

Alm Blade are much less powerful than Braves

Let alone Braves, its much weaker than Eirika's

[The Fush]

I love armsthrift because it makes it so I don't have to spend as much money on weapons, so I can buy things that are more in my pursuit. It also makes forges really damn powerful, especially on weapons like the Imposing Axe and Seliph's/Alm's Blade, which I usually find at least one of per playthrough. It's incredibly easy to obtain, aswell, is availible to a lot of characters and makes Legendary Weapons and Braves last forever too.

It's not vital, but I still find it really awesome. I've never actually used Hammerne in-game because of it.

EDIT: It's also one of the reasons why I bother using Donnel.

Edited June 17, 2013 by The Fush

[Chiki]

Is Armsthrift overrated? This is a brain-dead question. It could be, and probably has been, but how does one even answer this particular phrasing?

Well, you're wrong here -- to nobody's great surprise -- though it's mostly by omission. Armsthrift is useful any time that money is a factor, which includes a large number of no-DLC and/or no-grind runs that you'll see. And that is by no means an exhaustive list of runs where Armsthrift is good, just a couple obvious ones.

Your argument is clearly not well-thought out. I suggest thinking more deeply before posting next time.

1. Only Gregor has Armsthrift naturally. Why class change your units into Mercenaries? Solely for Armsthrift? It's a waste. By the time 16 comes up, depromoting to Mercenary would be quite stupid as it's a bad class--5 move and swords? No thanks.

2. Your luck will never be high enough to make Armsthrift useful, especially in no grind runs.

3. If you want Sol, you can instead class change at level 10 promoted to a level 1 Hero instead.

4. Not everyone can become a Mercenary. In fact, only Donnel and Cordelia can, not counting Basilio and the Avatar. Who cares about a piece of shit like Donnel? And Cordelia already has two 8 move classes, so why bother with Hero?

5. Gregor isn't even a good unit.

6. Gregor has 8 luck base and a 45% growth. No promotion bonuses.

7. Cordelia only has one luck above Gregor and the same growth. No promotion bonuses.

8. It takes 30 levels or so for luck to go up by 13.5, and that's only a 45% chance or so of activating Armsthrift for both of them!

The game throws money at you and there's a large amount of bullions and etc. that you can get. I doubt many people have an issue with money.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Chiki

[Redwall]

Mercenary is fairly practical in Lunatic+ as a pathway to either Sol or Bow Knight. Reclassing as a promoted unit imposes a high penalty on the internal level, so it's preferable to instead get to the Hero class by means of a Master Seal rather than a Second Seal.

Veterans make good use of Armsthrift to preserve +5 Mt forges since they will flirt with the Luck cap before too long. Preserving these forges isn't anything special during maingame campaigns on the lower difficulty settings, but dealing with the rather strong L+ enemies can be a bit easier with abundant +5 Mt forges. A max-forged Longbow has 14 Mt and 85 Hit, and is nice for avoiding counterattacks from any non-Longbow enemy.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Redwall

[Nobody]

Hero is one of the best classes in the game, so reclassing to mercenary is very valid option, even for the mu. Whenever i'm doing a no noferatu run i reclass the mu to that.