Randoman Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Ah, I get what you're saying, but Nintendo and IS aren't Square Enix in how they milk and promote the most popular leads (like Cloud and Lightning) and have little to no respect towards characters that started their series (poor Warrior of Light gets nowhere near as much promotion as Cloud and other FF leads). Nintendo always has a tradition of paying tribute to its origins, and since Marth is the very first FE lord, I'm sure he's staying. Sakurai didn't kick out Ness from Brawl just because Mother 3 was the best received game in the Mother series and Lucas was really popular. Besides, Smash Bros. caters to Japan the most regarding the character roster (hence, why Wolf got in over Krystal and Jigglypuff is still in), and Fire Emblem is far from niche there. It's always been mainstream there, and no matter how popular a new lord from Fire Emblem becomes, they're not going to go shafting Marth because Nintendo is all about tributes to their origins: Mario using flagpoles as the level end in a majority of the games, there always being a Pikachu equivalent in every Pokemon Generation (Pichu, Plusle & Minun, Pachisiru, Emolga), Star Fox always having the original four Star Fox members in the games in one way or another, the four original F-Zero racers always being starter characters in every F-Zero game they're featured in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 (edited) Besides, Smash Bros. caters to Japan the most regarding the character roster (hence, why Wolf got in over Krystal and Jigglypuff is still in), and Fire Emblem is far from niche there. Awakening sold a whooping 500k (maybe not even that) in Japan maybe niche is an exaggeration, but it isn't even Kirby level yet, let alone what one would consider "popular" and we all know it's the year of Luigi wait a sec, Krystal is more liked than Wolf in the west? not buying it Edited June 28, 2013 by shadykid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randoman Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Fair enough, I'll admit that Fire Emblem isn't one of Nintendo's biggest selling franchises, but seeing how Melee polls themselves showed that there was a lot of requests for Fire Emblem characters (moreso than any other unrepresented series in SSB64), that still shows that Fire Emblem is quite popular in Japan, despite the sales being rather low compared to other Nintendo series. I wish I had some proof or some links to share with you about Wolf being more popular than Krystal in Japan (I would've thought it was the opposite as well, since Japan fanbases are all about the attractive females), but I've got nothing about it in my stash of Smash Bros. roster development data. A lot of people on different sites say that Wolf was more popular than Krystal in Japan, though I haven't found the particular link for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 I wish I had some proof or some links to share with you about Wolf being more popular than Krystal in Japan (I would've thought it was the opposite as well, since Japan fanbases are all about the attractive females), but I've got nothing about it in my stash of Smash Bros. roster development data. A lot of people on different sites say that Wolf was more popular than Krystal in Japan, though I haven't found the particular link for it. nonono, you implied Krystal was more popular than Wolf in the west Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randoman Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Well, I meant that the Krystal to Wolf fanbase ratio in the west is bigger than the Krystal to Wolf fanbase ratio in the east. I don't really know the exact situation myself regarding the support for the two in Smash Bros. All I know from what a lot of people are saying is that Wolf was more wanted over Krystal in Smash Bros. in the east, and it was vice versa in the west (I do recall seeing a lot of Krystal support online back in the pre-Brawl days), and in the end Sakurai put Wolf in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Marth's moveset flows, he's one of the better designed characters in SSB. He also represents Fire Emblem too much. Japan adores him and a lot of Smash players use him. So yeah, he's not gonna get cut anytime soon. Yeah, Marth's moveset is really bro (although perhaps better in a faster game like Melee which is more conducive to his playstyle of Ken-comboing and spiking too and fro), not only from a "DURR MARTH ES GUD TWEWEER" standpoint, but also from a referential one. A lot of his moves and other stuff is actually from Fire Emblem, which I never actually noticed until I saw the "History Behind" video for Marth. Copying this from my Tumblr. Replacing Marth with Lucina is like replacing Pikachu with Pichu. Make it happen, Sakurai. Pichu is like 10 times the KAWAII. It's all in the removal of that "ka" syllable, that was excess baggage holding Pichu back from his/her/???/Cthulhu's maximum KAWAII potential. Akanea, the weakest link in the west? That's really only because people were expecting Shadow Dragon to add mechanics like rescuing and support conversations (rescuing would've really broke the game and made it too cheap and easy, almost like adding wall jumping to the original Super Mario Bros. trilogy). I'm sure that wouldn't be the case if FE 1-6 was released worldwide since people wouldn't have been so spoiled by FE7-10 before playing FE11. But they weren't...get over it. Besides, seeing how the west never got the first 6 games officially, their opinions should've even be worth considering regarding Fire Emblem, since Japan knows the whole series really well and have been familiar with it for a long time, while the west hasn't (thus, their opinions will be really skewed and their opinions of Fire Emblem won't take into account all the FEs). Yes, clearly every person in Japan has played the entire series and takes every single game into account when making an opinion regarding the inclusion of one video game franchise in another which do not share the exact same target market. Clearly. Ah, I get what you're saying, but Nintendo and IS aren't Square Enix in how they milk and promote the most popular leads (like Cloud and Lightning) and have little to no respect towards characters that started their series (poor Warrior of Light gets nowhere near as much promotion as Cloud and other FF leads). Probably because Nintendo games use the same characters from game to game while Final Fantasy switches it up... Besides, Smash Bros. caters to Japan the most regarding the character roster (hence, why Wolf got in over Krystal and Jigglypuff is still in), I was under the impression that America cared far more about the first generation of Pokemon than Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Probably because Nintendo games use the same characters from game to game while Final Fantasy switches it up... I don't know man, all those recent games with Lightning in them.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randoman Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 But they weren't...get over it. Yeah, I have. I'm just stating that America's view on Fire Emblem is quite skewed and not representative of the whole series compared to Japan because they didn't get a lot of the FE games. Yes, clearly every person in Japan has played the entire series and takes every single game into account when making an opinion regarding the inclusion of one video game franchise in another which do not share the exact same target market. Clearly. I never stated that, and I don't even know why you'd even assume I was talking about every single person in Japan (you honestly though I was talking about the entire Japanese population when I said "since Japan knows the whole series?"). I was talking about the Japan FE players knowing the series a lot better than western Japanese players in general and Japan having every single FE game released in their country, while the west didn't. Of course I know that not every Japanese FE player has played every single Fire Emblem, but the general Japanese FE fanbase is a better group to cater to than the western FE fanbase, since in general, it'd be a lot more representative of the series than the west, who didn't even get around half of the FE games. Probably because Nintendo games use the same characters from game to game while Final Fantasy switches it up... Yeah, but for series like Pokemon and Fire Emblem, the casts change or get added to from game to game (in most cases), yet Nintendo still promotes and has Pikachu and Marth as the mascots of their series. Companies like Square Enix just go promoting whatever lead is popular at the time, like Cloud or Lightning (I mean, look at the FFVII compilation and FFXIII Lightning Returns), and hardly promote the characters that started it all (Warrior of Light) compared to the popular ones. I was under the impression that America cared far more about the first generation of Pokemon than Japan. I know America is pretty biased and nostalgia over 1st Gen Pokemon quite heavily. I have no idea about how it compares to Japan, but Pikachu and 1st Gen is still heavily promoted in Japan (eg: the 1st Gen starter C Gear for Pokemon Black/White, the Charizard 3DS that got released a while ago only in Japan, etc.) to this day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Yeah, I have. I'm just stating that America's view on Fire Emblem is quite skewed and not representative of the whole series compared to Japan because they didn't get a lot of the FE games. ...Perhaps I shouldn't have snarked and made my point obvious. Sure, America's view is skewed, and perhaps not even the fairest view! But it's still rather important, perhaps even moreso than in Japan, because console games tend to sell better on the whole in America, at least ever since Monster Hunter hit the PSP. I never stated that, and I don't even know why you'd even assume I was talking about every single person in Japan (you honestly though I was talking about the entire Japanese population when I said "since Japan knows the whole series?"). ...MAYBE. Of course I know that not every Japanese FE player has played every single Fire Emblem, but the general Japanese FE fanbase is a better group to cater to than the western FE fanbase, since in general, it'd be a lot more representative of the series than the west, who didn't even get around half of the FE games. This kind of still irks me. I don't like the idea that one fanbase is better to cater too, especially since the Japanese fanbases (from what I've seen in my limited perspective) seem incredibly skewed towards nostalgia (Fire Emblem 3 is their favorite? Really??) rather than quality (aren't the Jugdral games not that popular)...also they don't appreciate Super Metroid enough. So if whatever company that designs Smash (the guys that made Lunar Silver Star Story?! fuck if I know) did decide to cater solely to the Japanese market, it certainly wouldn't be better or more indicative of the series, it would just be FE3 fanservice rather than FE13 fanservice. Yeah, but for series like Pokemon and Fire Emblem, the casts change or get added to from game to game (in most cases), yet Nintendo still promotes and has Pikachu and Marth as the mascots of their series. Companies like Square Enix just go promoting whatever lead is popular at the time, like Cloud or Lightning (I mean, look at the FFVII compilation and FFXIII Lightning Returns), and hardly promote the characters that started it all (Warrior of Light) compared to the popular ones. Warrior Of Light wasn't even in the game, man, I hate that guy so much. Forget promoting Cloud or Lightning, the thing that shows Square has little respect for how the series started is that they chose to promote the pontz who showed up on the front box despite not appearing in the game ANYWHERE over you know, the actual WARRIOR of Light...or the RED MAGE...or the MONK...or freaking GARLAND. I know America is pretty biased and nostalgia over 1st Gen Pokemon quite heavily. I have no idea about how it compares to Japan, but Pikachu and 1st Gen is still heavily promoted in Japan (eg: the 1st Gen starter C Gear for Pokemon Black/White, the Charizard 3DS that got released a while ago only in Japan, etc.) to this day. Huh...I never would've guessed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 oh yes, the catering to Japan part: becoming less viable every generation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randoman Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 This kind of still irks me. I don't like the idea that one fanbase is better to cater too, especially since the Japanese fanbases (from what I've seen in my limited perspective) seem incredibly skewed towards nostalgia (Fire Emblem 3 is their favorite? Really??) rather than quality (aren't the Jugdral games not that popular)...also they don't appreciate Super Metroid enough. So if whatever company that designs Smash (the guys that made Lunar Silver Star Story?! fuck if I know) did decide to cater solely to the Japanese market, it certainly wouldn't be better or more indicative of the series, it would just be FE3 fanservice rather than FE13 fanservice. Brawl had loads of Tellius fanservice (especially with the music and the trophies), FE representation in Brawl was heavily skewed to Tellius, and it had barely any Akanea fanservice (one song, three stickers, one playable character, and that's literally it. Even FE6-10 got more stickers), so I highly doubt SSB4 will be all Akanean fanservice (it'll likely be FE13 skewed). Besides, FE9 and 10 were the weakest selling FE games in Japan, yet they still represented Tellius the most in Brawl despite it having a lower amount of success and popularity compared to other FEs. Akanea's popularity had little to no bias implemented in the Smash Bros. series. Keep in mind, quite a lot of people don't view the Jugdral games as the best FE games, and they're pretty much the black sheep of the series (not as much as FE2, but it still sticks out compared to the majority of the FE games with elements like gigantic maps, escaping, capturing units, and other mechanics that were only used one time and never revisited again). Even so, FE4 gets plenty of love in Japan, seeing how FE4 got 7 official figurines of characters from that game, while Akanea has none whatsoever. The FE4 TCG cards also came first, before FE3, so it's not like FE4 is getting heavily shafted. As for why FE3 was so favoured in Japan, I don't have a definite answer. It's likely because the game series became more user friendly and easier to play from that game onward (with movement range finally being shown and the convoy finally becoming much easier to use instead of having to pay gold to use it), all the guides and other books that explained the character's stories very deeply (like how Castor's family was poor and his sister actually became a prostitute to provide for their family), and it was two games in one. I don't know for sure why FE3 is so liked, but seeing how Japan FE players experienced the full evolution of FE as each game came out, while western people only started with FE7, we can't really say much about how good the previous games were for their time. Either way, I wouldn't say it's something to get angry over, especially since the only major "biased influence" that FE3 has in Smash Bros. is Marth being playable, and he's the first and most prominent FE lord in the series anyways, so it's not like he's a bad choice for an FE mascot. I'll agree that for series that have had all/most games released internationally (like Mario, Star Fox, Metroid, and Pokemon), they should try to cater to everyone. But for games like Fire Emblem that didn't have a good chunk of their entries released internationally, it makes sense to cater to the group that were able to play all the games, since otherwise the Japan only games would be banished to obscurity regarding representation. oh yes, the catering to Japan part: becoming less viable every generation Yeah, I know all about the Japan gaming market "losing their prevalence." But seeing how Nintendo is a mostly Japan company, it makes sense that Nintendo games like Smash Bros. should have more of a Japanese influence. Though I'll admit, it would be nice if for game series that were mostly released internationally, catering to everyone would be preferrable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 I'll agree that for series that have had all/most games released internationally (like Mario, Star Fox, Metroid, and Pokemon), they should try to cater to everyone. But for games like Fire Emblem that didn't have a good chunk of their entries released internationally, it makes sense to cater to the group that were able to play all the games, since otherwise the Japan only games would be banished to obscurity regarding representation. Yeah, I know all about the Japan gaming market "losing their prevalence." But seeing how Nintendo is a mostly Japan company, it makes sense that Nintendo games like Smash Bros. should have more of a Japanese influence. Though I'll admit, it would be nice if for game series that were mostly released internationally, catering to everyone would be preferrable. spoilers: they already are Nintendo attempting to cater to Japan specifically has also backfired hard in the console space still would buy a Wii U if Mario Kart 8 came out in 2013 instead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randoman Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 They had Marth and Lucas as Japan Only reps back in the Brawl days, so I wouldn't call that being banished into obscurity. I'll admit, that Melee and Brawl shaft Japan Only game representation a lot, but they still have quite a few trophies and stickers, more than what they would have if they were trying to cater to the worldwide fanbase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 They had Marth and Lucas as Japan Only reps back in the Brawl days, so I wouldn't call that being banished into obscurity. I'll admit, that Melee and Brawl shaft Japan Only game representation a lot, but they still have quite a few trophies and stickers, more than what they would have if they were trying to cater to the worldwide fanbase. not anymore like I said, it's dwindling quickly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randoman Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 not anymore They had Marth and Lucas as Japan Only reps back in the Brawl days, so I wouldn't call that being banished into obscurity. I'll admit, that Melee and Brawl shaft Japan Only game representation a lot, but they still have quite a few trophies and stickers, more than what they would have if they were trying to cater to the worldwide fanbase. See bolded. And this topic is about Marth and his return to SSB4, I don't want to derail it with talk of "Japanese Gaming influence dwindling." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 See bolded. yes I'm aware of that, in SSB4 it won't be though (and Lucas may not even be around, though I don't think he's getting the boot) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. FalKoopa Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Eh, I think Marth is a shoe-in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Eh, I think Marth is a shoe-in. As do I. Also hi Fal! [Jedisupersonic from SmashBoards here xD] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. FalKoopa Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 As do I. Also hi Fal! [Jedisupersonic from SmashBoards here xD] Hi! :D Doing a bit of lurking, Habanero, SSB Fan and Shinpichu are here as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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