Happy_Dingo Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I guess it isn't the best example but I'm not really good at pulling examples out of my head. I guess there's another one I'm really irritated by, though. For all I know while most Avenger fans I hang out with are women, I see Black Widow under fire by a lot of male fans for being "useless" even though she outsmarted a trickster god, has awesome martial arts moves, and figured out how to close the goddamn portal itself. She's also IMO the most logical and level-headed of the team. Sure, she's not as powerful as Thor or Hulk, but she got shit done and a lot of people make that judgement of uselessness based on the fact that she's an attractive woman (and attractive women are only there for eyecandy amirite) and ignore everything she actually did in the movie just because she can't punch a goddamn hole in a building and has boobs. It's sad. Not to debuff what you're saying, but Loki was pretty easily outsmarted by most of the characters in that movie because of his arrogance. Also that one guy that made the portal told her how to close it so I wouldn't say she did it by herself. Again not disagreeing with ya, but that was a bad example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Hmm, some of the best examples I can think of are probably Fire Emblem itself and maybe Naruto and Dragonball Z. In the case of the latter two, I think part of it MAY be due to the author. The women in Naruto and DBZ aren't - bad - per say, but they are less noticeable and less impressive than the men in the series who are in the foreground, always fighting and powering up. Hetalia might be an example where the problem may be the fans. Anyone who knows anything about Hetalia would know that it has a lot of fuel for yaoi fangirls, and that the majority of its characters are men. The few female characters that series have their own quirks and whatnot, but I've heard that some people bash on this one female character for "stealing" two of the most popular male characters. In my opinion, I think the problem is mostly an attitude towards women. I've read a lot of fanfics, and the way fanfiction writers (and especially the women) treat female characters is pretty shocking. Strong female characters turn into weepy flowers who need a strong man to save them from their situation, or suddenly become a more "dependent" character. And yet these same fans complain that a female character is less "interesting" or "a load" compared to the male characters. There's just no way to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy_Dingo Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 There's just no way to win. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 A lot of people have waaaaay high standards for female characters than males. Like, when a female character has x trait it's awful (because of said trait) but a male character have the same trait it's totally fine, wtf? Fucking double standards. Just a general observation, really. EPIC BROFIST! Lumi, stahp! yer being too awesome and sharing my brain! Are you observed this on mainly male audience? Or also female one? In a lot of fandoms I see it's usually the female characters under fire while even the least popular males don't generate as much hate around them. Granted, some writers are really awful at writing women, but I'd put the blame on the author and not the character. Many writers fail to understand that women are human and should be given the same depth as any other character and not some one-dimensional stereotype. Shengar's question: (quote tags fucking suck on this forum D:) Its usually a female audience whos lauding these complaints. In fact, its 98% of the time. "This girl isnt written right! A real woman wouldnt think this way!" or "Shes too objectified!" or "OMG SEXISM! A male character is involved!" And go on about the Bechdel Test as if that actually means something. (Spoiler: It doesnt. Things that pass that test can be just as goddamn sexist. Only in favor of women.) Its BS! Another one is when comparing female characters in the same story, these female fans scream about how pitting two characters against each other (you know..like talking about the flaws of each character in relation to each other?) is basically sexist because FEMALES. Wut. No one bats an eyelid when someone says "Yo, Kirby vs Metaknight." To Lumi's quote: Yeah. But its really bad when an author DOES write women well and in variety and it still gets that sort of treatment. See A Song Of Ice and Fire for example. This has one of the most irritating fandoms in regards to this issue. There are loads of varied female characters with all sorts of different qualities, flaws, actions, etc. But a portion of the female fanbase screams sexism at the drop of a hat. Oh hey, guess what ladies, this is a story that has some very gritty, real world themes. Of course things arent gonna be roses for the female characters! The characters of Sansa Stark, Catelyn Stark, Daenerys Targaryen, and Cersei Lannister are among the most touchy subjects. Some parts of the male fandom laud arguments at Daenerys and Cersei due to their in-universe love lives. Its not exactly common, but it happens. But the females like to yell about how badly these characters are written in favor of a male character. Thats RUBBISH. That story has a lot of feminist undertones in it and to claim the author is sexist is ridiculous and false. Now when it comes to like, anime or whatever, i dont really know because outside some games, i dont see a lot of that kind of fanbase. I understand the criticism about some movies and games or whatever when it comes to making a female character a stereotype. But stories like ASOIAF and HP dont really do that. (to be honest, other than shipping wars, i havent seen that sort of discussion in the HP fandom.) What ends up happening is that female audiences tend to think woman must be something completely special and treated as such in fiction. I find this ridiculous. It isnt that hard to write a good solid female character and many people succeed, but you wouldnt know that just by asking a female fan. Bonus Points if the story was written by a man. These filthy double standards really piss me off if you didnt notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shengar Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I myself rarely heard anyone complain about how weak and stupid the a character is when they are male. And no, I never heard once about "dependent" male in my life though there are a lot of characters like this out there. But again, my observation might be not dependable since I'm usually stay and spend time in mostly male forum, and they usually went out rage, spreading hate only when provoked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) Man, while I'm not familiar with the ASOIAF characters (I've only read the first book since alas I don't have much time to read these days, will eventually get to the rest), I've heard about the vitriol these women face and I've heard some really nasty comments that are just unwarranted. I get pissed off even though I'm not even quite part of the fandom. I've heard Wonder Woman is notorious for being stuck with bad writers who can't writer her for shit, though. Dont quote me on this since I don't read DC (yet), but at least that's what I've been hearing when I was trying to find a good entry point into DCU since I'm quite interested in Diana. But yeah, shipping wars are awful. Edited July 3, 2013 by Thor Odinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Man, while I'm not familiar with the ASOIAF characters (I've only read the first book since alas I don't have much time to read these days, will eventually get to the rest), I've heard about the vitriol these women face and I've heard some really nasty comments that are just unwarranted. I get pissed off even though I'm not even quite part of the fandom. I've heard Wonder Woman is notorious for being stuck with bad writers who can't writer her for shit, though. Dont quote me on this since I don't read DC (yet), but at least that's what I've been hearing when I was trying to find a good entry point into DCU since I'm quite interested in Diana. But yeah, shipping wars are awful. The character of Sansa gets a lot of vitriol for being feminine, but at the same time, the character of Arya often gets hated on by some jerks because shes not feminine. UGH theres no pleasing anyone! Im not a fan of Daenerys but my criticism about her has nothing to do with her gender. You wouldnt know that if you asked some members of the forum i post at about the series, however. "MISOGYNY!" So what, if Jon Snow is my favorite character? Arya is also my favorite character. I dont look at characters or people by what lies between their legs. I find that really kind of crappy. No idea about Wonder Woman. I barely even remember the show from way back in the day. I havent read DC much (or comics in general) so i cant answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I've heard from sensible people who like the series that Sansa gets a lot of character development, which I look forward to reading once I get to the other books. I've very wary of her hatedom, though. It's pretty notorious. I don't even follow any blogs dedicated to asoiaf and I still hear about them. Poor girl. More on topic, I like Sumia and Sully's friendship. A lot. One of my brotps (sistp? I dunno it doesn't have the play on words of otp like brotp does sadly) of this game, certainly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I don't like a lot of the male characters in Awakening either, since they're overblown caricatures just like many of the women. Kellam comes to mind- a character who is rarely noticed could have been good, but the writers chose to exaggerate this into being completely invisible somehow. It just doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonMendez Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 If she marries Chrom its will be like Marth and Sheeda and i like it that way. I like Sumia because she is a good unit with a good personality. i understand that people don't like her support conversations with hrom being about pie, but if it's that bad i don't understand how people like Tharja's, Miriel's, Libra's or Frederick's support conversations. Every character has a unique personality that makes them stand out (Good or Bad). you can hate sumia but there are people who will like her no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I've heard from sensible people who like the series that Sansa gets a lot of character development, which I look forward to reading once I get to the other books. I've very wary of her hatedom, though. It's pretty notorious. I don't even follow any blogs dedicated to asoiaf and I still hear about them. Poor girl. More on topic, I like Sumia and Sully's friendship. A lot. One of my brotps (sistp? I dunno it doesn't have the play on words of otp like brotp does sadly) of this game, certainly. Sansa's rabid fans arent much better. They basically paint her as the best and greatest of all characters due to her Incorruptible Pure Pureness. (which is horseshit because Sansa, like everyone else in that universe, has real flaws.) Its like Boron said, No one can win. I love Sumia/Sully supports! Sully is so sweet to that girl! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I don't like a lot of the male characters in Awakening either, since they're overblown caricatures just like many of the women. Kellam comes to mind- a character who is rarely noticed could have been good, but the writers chose to exaggerate this into being completely invisible somehow. It just doesn't make sense. Oh yeah, I feel you there. Characterisation is handled poorly overall in Awakening overall, sadly. It has potential and certainly an excellent system in place to flesh out character depth with the number of supports in this game, but they blew it pretty hard. It's just that all the more vocal hatedom is centered around the female characters of this game. And in most other things I've seen, is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Oh yeah, I feel you there. Characterisation is handled poorly overall in Awakening overall, sadly. It has potential and certainly an excellent system in place to flesh out character depth with the number of supports in this game, but they blew it pretty hard. It's just that all the more vocal hatedom is centered around the female characters of this game. And in most other things I've seen, is all. Yeah. D: I actually dont care for Kellam or Vaike. I never use them much and i dont find their characters very fun. Stahl's averageness is actually funny. If Cordelia had the same sort of "averageness", id probably like her more. Say'ri, who has nothing special in the way of personality doesnt even bother me. Shes like in the background along with guys like Lon'qu. Lon'qu is someone who i hardly pay attention to outside as a unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I'm kind of weird in that I like the women from generation 1 much better than the men (I think Henry and Libra are the only dudes I like in gen 1, and there's a pretty wide margin between Henry and Libra) while I like most of the girls. It's the opposite for generation 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquakat Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I asked a friend of mine about this (as I happen to like Sumia) and her reply was: "less supports, so I only get to see two sides at most. The others, I can see at least 2 and a half. Also, random insertion in story line with nothing to hint why she's supposedly the canon choice outside of author preference. Not even something simple like Maribelle being Lissa's best friend, and therefore around Chrom a lot, or Sully being a childhood friend. She's just there, yet we're supposed to pair her with Chrom? The writers bungled her, and that translated as hate towards her, I guess. Meh, it could just be rabid fanpeople being especially loud too, but that's my two cents." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I'm kind of weird in that I like the women from generation 1 much better than the men (I think Henry and Libra are the only dudes I like in gen 1, and there's a pretty wide margin between Henry and Libra) while I like most of the girls. It's the opposite for generation 2. I actually liked Males more than Females in this game for the most part >_> Which is the reverse of practically everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Kamina Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) I actually liked Males more than Females in this game for the most part >_> Which is the reverse of practically everyone In general I feel that the males had more depth put into their characters. I still like most of the cast though. Edited July 3, 2013 by Virion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singularity Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Problem is, we can't convict those haters. Maybe some of them, who only hate a little, could understand, but what about those zealots who hate her with undying passion? About male/female, I like almost everyone so that's a bit irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faye Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 She annoyed me in the beginning, and I hate the Chrom/Sumia pairing with an undying passion, but Sumia herself is just a really great character. I see a lot of myself in her: clumsy, a bit ditzy, low self-esteem, but an excellent cook. It makes me sad when irrational hate is thrown in her way from untrue accusations (she's not a whiner, you know who you are :P). I think Sumia's best traits come out with her supports with Fred, showing how she tries so hard, but ends up making silly mistakes anyway. And my heart melted in their S Support, where Fred tells her "you are always beautiful to me". All my feels man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 She annoyed me in the beginning, and I hate the Chrom/Sumia pairing with an undying passion, but Sumia herself is just a really great character. I see a lot of myself in her: clumsy, a bit ditzy, low self-esteem, but an excellent cook. It makes me sad when irrational hate is thrown in her way from untrue accusations (she's not a whiner, you know who you are :P). I think Sumia's best traits come out with her supports with Fred, showing how she tries so hard, but ends up making silly mistakes anyway. And my heart melted in their S Support, where Fred tells her "you are always beautiful to me". All my feels man. Pega-Pony Princess that is all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 It makes me sad when irrational hate is thrown in her way from untrue accusations (she's not a whiner, you know who you are :P). So my hate for her is irrational just because you disagree that Sumia is whiny? I'm allowed to think she's whiny if I want to, thanks. You might not have interpreted her as whiny, but I did and it annoyed me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Kamina Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) So my hate for her is irrational just because you disagree that Sumia is whiny? I'm allowed to think she's whiny if I want to, thanks. You might not have interpreted her as whiny, but I did and it annoyed me. Would you mind giving an example of when you thought Sumia was whiny? Edited July 3, 2013 by Virion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted July 3, 2013 Author Share Posted July 3, 2013 It's called irony, my good sir. Ladies and gentlemen... it begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) Sumia sux, Cordelia and Cynthia da best #threadderail but seriously, Sumia's pretty decent, has a hilarious convo with Miriel and whatnot Edited July 3, 2013 by shadykid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZemZem Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) So my hate for her is irrational just because you disagree that Sumia is whiny? I'm allowed to think she's whiny if I want to, thanks. You might not have interpreted her as whiny, but I did and it annoyed me. I've never seen an instance where Sumia was whiny. and the above poster knows what's up, with the cynthia praise Edited July 3, 2013 by Zeem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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