gringe Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 (edited) I already said many times, there is a reason. The problem is that Miledy is still very close to Milady, which is the same as the word milady, which is used in the script fairly frequently. Milledi appears to be almost a common name. It brings up quite a few blogs and Facebook pages and also appears to be the name of a wine. It's a different spelling with the same pronunciation. Also I frankly don't really care what people are used to. If I did I would have left all the names the same, which I didn't. And yes, Bartre does appear to be a real name. Searching it brings up a few Facebook pages and a street in Washington called Bartre Ct. Edited July 22, 2013 by gringe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) And yes, Bartre does appear to be a real name. Searching it brings up a few Facebook pages and a street in Washington called Bartre Ct. Just in response to that evidential reasoning: And the difference between Miledy and My lady, or milady, is fairly obvious in both the scriptual context, the word's linguistic context, and in the spelling itself. I mean, you already have a precedent cause excusing a name similarity with a basic word, such as FE13's Nah (FE13's scripts actually exploit this similarity, much how FE6 does, as I mention next). Moreover, if there is a literary reference being made with her name (Three Muskateers, according to another member here), then that ought to be preserved, rather than castrated. Not to mention that the similarity helps push the characerization of Miledy as an eponymous servant to Guinevere. Edited July 23, 2013 by Celice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) Also I frankly don't really care what people are used to. you should. nothing wrong with keeping it simple. Edited July 23, 2013 by dondon151 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringe Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 And the difference between Miledy and My lady, or milady, is fairly obvious in both the scriptual context, the word's linguistic context, and in the spelling itself. I mean, you already have a precedent cause excusing a name similarity with a basic word, such as FE13's Nah (FE13's scripts actually exploit this similarity, much how FE6 does, as I mention next). Moreover, if there is a literary reference being made with her name (Three Muskateers, according to another member here), then that ought to be preserved, rather than castrated. Not to mention that the similarity helps push the characerization of Miledy as an eponymous servant to Guinevere. I feel no obligation personally to stick with Miledy. In the end, even with all things considered, I just don't like it very much. When you put it like that though, I'm fine with Milady if I can rewrite a line or two to account for potential confusion. Are people actually okay with this? With further thought, I don't mind taking this extra step personally. It would get old if it's constantly referenced all the time, but here's one idea for her first scene in chapter 2. Milady: All I want to know is what happened to Princess Guinivere! Ruud: Y-yes, milady... Milady: That's CAPTAIN Milady to you! Ruud: B-but, milady, I didn't mean-- Milady: CAPTAIN Milady! Ruud: Y-yes, Captain Milady. I'm certain the princess was in her room this morning, but she simply vanished... and then the dialogue goes as normal........ What do people think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 are you fixing up the translation or rewriting the script Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringe Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I need to account for certain things. At this point it's either Milady and maintain the original reference with some kind of explanation, or Milledi as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 You don't really need an explanation... Also what is it with translation patches having a hard on for changing the names that people are used to? I mean these names have been used by the FE community for over 9 years. Furthermore, these names were translated by a native Japanese speaker? Are people implying that FireLizard doesn't know his own fucking language? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringe Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Also what is it with translation patches having a hard on for changing the names that people are used to? I mean these names have been used by the FE community for over 9 years. I really don't think it needs any more explanation than I've already given. If you can't accept it then sorry. Furthermore, these names were translated by a native Japanese speaker? Are people implying that FireLizard doesn't know his own fucking language? No. All I'll say is that he/she doesn't (or didn't) know how to translate into English very well. Language ability and translation ability are two entirely different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) No. All I'll say is that he/she doesn't (or didn't) know how to translate into English very well. Language ability and translation ability are two entirely different things. From what I remember, FireLizard was fluent in English. And a pleasure to speak with, as a fellow English speaker. Edited July 23, 2013 by Celice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I really don't think it needs any more explanation than I've already given. If you can't accept it then sorry. i don't actually know what explanation you've already given. all that you've admitted to is that it's an arbitrary business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorena Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I just want to point out that anyone who supported official translations might want to reconsider. Originally, Marth is localized as Mars in an english translation, then it gets chagned later on to something as Marth. The Rutoga idea through SSBB might be something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 You know gringe, I'm inclined to go with the Pro Miledy side on this one, even if Shadow Dragon technically did the same thing. It's a chore having to mentally correct yourself, and since this patch is being aimed at an audience, I think it's probably best to go with their preferences if the name you have in mind isn't much different anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I reiterate my previous suggestion: "Fix the freaking script first, worry about names later." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringe Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 From what I remember, FireLizard was fluent in English. And a pleasure to speak with, as a fellow English speaker. That's fine. I said nothing about his English ability or intended to insult him. Translation, however, is a completely different field from language knowledge. I don't even really "blame" him (or anybody, really) for the state of the script. He was just translating the script accurately without attempting to adapt anything so I don't hold it against him. Then again, I wasn't the one who brought him up. I reiterate my previous suggestion: "Fix the freaking script first, worry about names later." You're right. Milady's the only main character I'm less than 100% positive on anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I guess the best way to avoid all controversy is just to name everyone Virgil. Well, the reason this thread was even created was so as to not get in the way of the main translating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeCrush980 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Also, what's wrong with Alucard? That's a real name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringe Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 It's Dracula backwards, first used in the film Son of Dracula and used since then in Castlevania and the manga/anime series Hellsing in direct reference to Dracula. Since he's not a vampire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 It's Dracula backwards, first used in the film Son of Dracula and used since then in Castlevania and the manga/anime series Hellsing in direct reference to Dracula. Since he's not a vampire... So wait: with your rewrite of Hector and Zephiel, you argued that you were aware of the intention of the dialogue (whatever that means, and which itself is an impossibility), and that you rewrote the dialogue to emphasize your interpretation of it; that's fine, if you stick to trying to preserve the mythical intention of an author (which again is an impossible matter). But here, it's perfectly likely that the reference to Alucard, in the context you've outlined above, is an authorial intent, and now you're going to displace that? How are you going to remain consistent in your project, or is everything subject to alteration for the sake of alteration? I hope not; this project may be yours, but the game text is not. As a reasonable contrast: Titania isn't a fairy-queen in the localized versions of FE9, nor was she a primordial mythical monster when she was named Tiamat in her Japanese release. But she can have qualities in her character that are developed and enhanced by being referenced with either name--in fact, both become their own distinct, mutually exclusive identities because of a simple name change. Are you ready to divest Alucard of its characterization, and create a new replacement not present in the original text, simply because you don't agree with its referential history? The goal of translation, and even its subset of localization, is still to transpose one significant linguistic meaning into another, without losing the meaning in the process. How you feel about the act of translation is irrelevant, because you were never a part of the original text, nor its translation, each of which must remain, as closely as possible, mirrored singularities of meaning. As a translator, you are a facilitator, and you ought remain neutral and without footprint in the text. That is, unless you are not interested in translating the text at all, but in revising it to what you'd expect or want the text to be... in which, I'm not sure you should associate translation with your project in the first place. I mean, are you even looking at the original text, or are you looking at the Twilikitri translation patch, watching for when something displeases you or seems worth improving, and then altering it, either out-right or with reference to the original text? In the end, many Fire Emblem fans are interested in being entertained, than in reading an original text in all its unblemished, or malformed, context. Many won't care if you're willing to rewrite vast portions of the text along as it carries with it some sort of new or vibrant emotion, significance, or suggestion. Many won't even know there was a difference. But that doesn't negate the importance of remaining consistent and charitable in your translation of someone else's textual work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBCrazy Posted July 23, 2013 Author Share Posted July 23, 2013 The point being made there is that the name Alucard is predominantly associated with vampires, and that they are the first thing that would come to mind when you read that name. The name Arcard has no such connotation. As for the Miledy debate, since that seems to be our primary topic of discussion, our goals in retranslating FE6 to stay both accurate and interesting. 'Milady,' while the character's official Japanese name, would cause confusion, as has already been mentioned. The name Miledy was probably chosen to be as close as possible without causing that confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHEB Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) As my sig states, "Miledy" is the only reasonable option, "Milledi" and its variants sound different to other peoples' ears. Edit: And if the name was intended to be Millety, it would be spelled differently. Edited July 23, 2013 by GHEB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) Milady sounds better. Edited July 23, 2013 by Ranger Jack Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringe Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) tldr The "point" of the dialogue is clear to anyone who can read. If staying 100% "accurate" mattered, then all translations would be incredibly boring and stiff. I'm curious: have you ever translated anything before? It's easy to say "translation should be this way" but in practice liberties must be taken to render it naturally. I'm not referring directly to the Japanese text but I've played through the game in Japanese before. I feel like I'm tootin' my own horn here, but as I've said, I'm not inexperienced in translation. I've done manga translations for around 8 years, experimenting a lot here and there, discussing with other translators, and trying to improve myself over the years. Directly translating the text makes for very boring dialogue and rendering it naturally doesn't change the ultimate purpose or meaning. Author intent has to be interpreted, but let's face it, this isn't a great work of literature. It's a video game. It's really not that complicated or nuanced. Even if they intended to reference Alucard, Arcardo and Arcard are not uncommon names so in an English rendering it's more appropriate to lose the pop culture reference which players will associate with vampires. If all you want is absolute "accuracy," then I recommend sticking with the patch as it is. It's necessary to alter renderings to make it read naturally in English. Edited July 23, 2013 by gringe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Void Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 What's the problem with calling him Alucard? He's not a man who drinks the blood of the living, but he is a member of Etruia's state. "Vampire" has been used as a metaphor for landlords, etc. for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) I'm curious: have you ever translated anything before? Yes, as a graduated double major in Literature Studies and Philosophy, with a background in French, I've had my share of translating, interpreting, and utilizing texts from other languages, sometimes manually translated by myself for clarity or to ensure the ideas and text were accurately rendered from one language to another. I've also worked alongside other translators both in an academic setting and in the romhacking scene. However, the ideas are concerned with your project, not myself: It only seems that your goals for this project aren't to render a more valid or enjoyable translation, but to rewrite the text in a manner that you subjectively deem better, more accessible; but this seems to buckle when you start to explain how you use outside evidence as reasoning for one decision or another, such as staying in line with official localized name conventions, using "real world" references, and other sorts of things. My concern is that, if you somehow even finish this project and it somehow becomes more popular than the previous patch, then you are altering newer player's understanding of the text, creating a platform for misinformation and misunderstanding of the game's actual story and characters. Players will not be reading a Fire Emblem script, necessarily: they are reading your fiction. The member above makes a valid point which I'm to agree with; and one that you've actually, yourself, agreed with, in regards to Miredy, in conveying her servitude. Preservation ought to be the goal of a project such as yours, as long as you tagline it as a renovation translation. Edited July 23, 2013 by Celice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Void Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 (edited) Alucard is in charge of the Etrurian mining operations on Mt. Eburacum. Which happened to have slave labor. If his name has the player think of vampires, well, what's the problem? Edited July 24, 2013 by The Void Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts