So Ike really is the strongest Lord. Before Awakening anyway.

[Thor Odinson]

Heath's con's honestly fine for lances as long as you don't throw him steel

If Dracos had axes in this game, Then I'd consider throwing him that ring.

Raven and Guy's foot units, so Isa has more priority there at least with how I play

Not saving body ring for one chapter of durandal use. Especially when the game throws you easy bosskiller like Athos.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Ezio Auditore da Firenze

[shadykid]

I love how this has become a discussion about FE7 characters that aren't even lords

then again, better than the original topic

[Irysa]

^ this is like the second topic I've derailed this week :\

Raven would appreciate going down to 4/1 aspd penalty for using a steel axe or hand axe, and his 1-2 with hand axe is a lot better than Isadora's 1-2 with a javelin/short spear due to his higher str, skill, and spd. AND Isa has 3 penalty or worse even with Body Ring, don't even bother with axes on her. Heath would appreciate not getting a a 5/4 aspd penalty for a steel lance/javelin and being flying is pretty useful. Pegasus Knights don't really get a claim to it IMO because their con is so bad that the body ring only really opens up to like, Killer Lances, anything else is still a pretty blegh penalty considering that enemies they have priority in targeting (sword users/magc users) have higher spd than usual, raising doubling problems.

[dondon151]

raven doesn't need a body ring

Pegasus Knights don't really get a claim to it IMO because their con is so bad that the body ring only really opens up to like, Killer Lances,

and javelins, which are kind of the two best lances in the game

[PKL]

There are enemies wiith spd in FE7?

[shadykid]

There are enemies wiith spd in FE7?

enemy Harken

[PKL]

enemy Harken

Hawkeye is probably one of the speediest FE7 enemies too.

[Irysa]

A lot of the later promoted enemies, and some unpromted (in particular magic and sword users) have relatively high AS, which was basically why I was arguing that Pegasus Knights don't really want to be using heavier weapons vs those enemies, as those are their ideal targets. Even with a body ring they may have doubling problems if trying to use Steel Lances.

raven doesn't need a body ring

and javelins, which are kind of the two best lances in the game

I don't think Raven "needs" a body ring, it just makes axes better on him. I don't tend to use any other axe users aside from Hector, who is lagging behind in later levels, and Hawkeye once you get him. I just listed it as a possiblity/someone who would appreciate it, as Axes boost Ravens great offence even higher. He's honestly fine for Hand Axing without a Body Ring, but if you want to use Steel Axes then I think Body Ring is a great boon.

Also, with Javelins, Pegasus javelins tend to just amount to chipping because anything they're ideal for is usually just fine at 1 range with an Iron Lance anyway. I don't trust throwing them into the middle of a foray of enemies with hand axes or bows because even with a body ring they eat penalities for Javelin, making them a bit touch and go. Versus enemy groups with Javelins, there are better units (any paladin except isa, raven, hector) to be sending. That pretty much leaves magic users who are generally scattered and not often in condensed groups like other enemy types, so 1-2 is not usually as useful, and Sword users don't get 1-2 except on Magic Swords (which are basically nonexistant)

There are not many units that DON'T benefit from a Body Ring but in my view, Pegasus Knights in FE7 don't really get a significant benefit from it most of the time for how they are ideally used.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Irysa

[Thor Odinson]

I don't particularly like to use body rings on fliers in general because it fucks up their rescue stat

Also who the fuck thought it was a good idea to give female cav/pal and dracos the same rescue formula as pegasi

[shadykid]

28x: highest AS is one hero with 16

hmm

edit: funny, even FE9 HM stats kinda suck

MM is better though

Edited August 7, 2013 by shadykid

[Irysa]

Having even 8 or better is raising issues with Florina or Fiora doubling whilst using a Javelin or Steel (they are eating a 7 to 9 penalty), and that doesn't really get fixed with a Body Ring since the gap is so big. It isnt an issue with Iron Weapons (which are usually good enough), and I still don't think the PK's even should be using Javelins that much.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Irysa

[PKL]

I've never had problems with the PK wielding javelins after theyre out of their base. Fiora can benefit from it a lot because she can't rescue Hector anyway if she promotes. Eating a Body Ring means she's taking only a -3 spd penalty from javelins. Due to the huge spd buffer PKs have, they should never ever have trouble doubling barring when they are at base/close to base.

[Irysa]

Florina and Farina are both averaging 14 speed at 10/1, and are eating a 6/5 penalty from Javelins. If we gave them 5 more levels, its 17. This means they can't double anything whilst using a Javelin if it has more than 7/8 AS (worse without those extra levels), which is not uncommon later on. With Body Ring I'll concede that Fiora in particular would be doubling fine with a Javelin consistently, but I'm still not really convinced in it's use considering their str isn't hot, javelins have lower MT and PKs are not ideal to throw at a most unit groups that have 1-2 weapons anyway, meaning their Javelins are more often just for chipping if unsure of their safety or needing to preseve a spot for a 1 range attacker.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Irysa

[ZemZem]

*reads back* In drafts, I don't give Fiora, Florina (NEVER give her the body ring in drafts before 32x.), or Farina the body ring before Kenneth's map because then they can't ferry unpromoted Hector to the throne. XP

Heath doesn't need a body ring.

[Trickster]

Eh I prefer waiting for Farina out of prefrence since she seems to preform better, but Fiora's still good.

And while we're on the topic of body rings, Legault's high(er) con, and luck than matthew, because it makes him more durable.

[dondon151]

Florina and Farina are both averaging 14 speed at 10/1, and are eating a 6/5 penalty from Javelins. If we gave them 5 more levels, its 17. This means they can't double anything whilst using a Javelin if it has more than 7/8 AS (worse without those extra levels), which is not uncommon later on. With Body Ring I'll concede that Fiora in particular would be doubling fine with a Javelin consistently, but I'm still not really convinced in it's use considering their str isn't hot, javelins have lower MT and PKs are not ideal to throw at a most unit groups that have 1-2 weapons anyway, meaning their Javelins are more often just for chipping if unsure of their safety or needing to preseve a spot for a 1 range attacker.

sounds like scrub johns to me

but if you want to use Steel Axes then I think Body Ring is a great boon.

nope; you only need 14 AS to double the vast majority of enemies in the game, and raven reaches 20 spd by 12/1 or equivalent

Edited August 7, 2013 by dondon151

[Irysa]

sounds like scrub johns to me

I have no idea what that means sorry. Scrub excuse? I guess I couldn't lie that their avd is fine enough to manage those 1-2 situations most of the time, I just don't feel it's always that consistent while being weighed down.

nope; you only need 14 AS to double the vast majority of enemies in the game, and raven reaches 20 spd by 12/1 or equivalent

Hmm, thats true. I guess I've been overstating the Steel Axe penalty considering his speed bases are ridiculous, and he gets good speed from promo. Raven really doesn't need it. Although I could argue that the times that Steel Axe is useful is usually on the stronger, faster enemies with more HP, where the Body Ring could help (could just use a Killing Edge though)

Edited August 7, 2013 by Irysa

[dondon151]

if fliers are taking a part of the map solo, "oh but they can't always kill stuff" is a bad excuse to sandbag them with less effective weapons.

[Irysa]

My reasoning isn't "they can't always kill stuff" so much as that PKs just don't consistently double with Javelins, don't hit as hard with them anyway, and are a bit more risky to throw into the kind of situations where Javelins would be favourable (group of enemies with some mixed 1/2's that would exploit it if only 1 range). Most of the situations I can think of you could throw a foot unit with a hand axe or any one of your Paladins and they'd generally do it safer and faster. If you give a PK a body ring, then they're still going to have problems anyway, so what was the point of the Body Ring? I will admit that Fiora should eventually be able to make good use of it though.

I don't think Pegasus Knights are bad units, or that they cannot make any use out of a Body Ring. I just don't think that Body Ring really does much to improve them because Steel is still a bit too heavy to use most of the time, and I don't think they get that much milage out of Javelins. IE, any situation where I throw them with a Javelin at a group of units and it isn't particularly risky or unfavorable, their doubling prowess isn't very good even with the Body Ring. People made decent points about how it hinders their rescue/drop capability due to the way Aid is calculated for female mounted units.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Irysa

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Dunno about you, but most of the time, I basically ignored PK's STR because I don't use them for combat anyway >_>

[ZemZem]

I give Eliwood a body ring so he can double the dragon. 8)

[dondon151]

My reasoning isn't "they can't always kill stuff" so much as that PKs just don't consistently double with Javelins, don't hit as hard with them anyway, and are a bit more risky to throw into the kind of situations where Javelins would be favourable (group of enemies with some mixed 1/2's that would exploit it if only 1 range).

let's rehash FE7 facts:

1. you only need 14 AS to double the vast majority of enemies by endgame, and many you can double with 13 AS.

2. fiora and farina need 19 spd to reach 14 AS with a javelin when promoted

3. pegasus knights don't gain spd on promotion

therefore an automatic +2 AS is a pretty big deal.

4. FE7 enemies are super weak. 17 atk 2HKOs every unpromoted enemy (except for the brigand) in cog of destiny. enemy PKs are also a joke, but you take what you can get.

not ORKOing an enemy doesn't equate to uselessness, since most enemy types take 60-80% HP damage from 2 javelin attacks.

Most of the situations I can think of you could throw a foot unit with a hand axe or any one of your Paladins and they'd generally do it safer and faster.

get back to me when you figure out how to make your heroes and paladins grow wings

If you give a PK a body ring, then they're still going to have problems anyway, so what was the point of the Body Ring?

if you give vaida a speedwings, then there will still be enemies that she can't double, so what was the point of the speedwings?

I don't think Pegasus Knights are bad units, or that they cannot make any use out of a Body Ring. I just don't think that Body Ring really does much to improve them because Steel is still a bit too heavy to use most of the time, and I don't think they get that much milage out of Javelins.

and yet you think that raven is a good recipient of a body ring when i showed quite conclusively that he has no trouble hitting 14 AS without one.

People made decent points about how it hinders their rescue/drop capability due to the way Aid is calculated for female mounted units.

that's because these people don't bother doing their research. here's a list of units in FE7 with 13 or 14 con to whom the body ring would make a difference:

dorcas (unpromo)

bartre (unpromo)

hector (unpromo)

oswin (unpromo)

dart (promo)

geitz (obv. promo)

big fuckin' whoop.

edit: here's another reason to give isadora the body ring - she doubles and ORKOs all unequipped enemies in genesis with a silver sword.

Edited August 7, 2013 by dondon151

[shadykid]

edit: here's another reason to give isadora the body ring - she doubles and ORKOs all unequipped enemies in genesis with a silver sword.

er.......ok

yes I know you meant unpromoted

[dondon151]

no, i meant unequipped.

[shadykid]

no, i meant unequipped.

oh, Genesis is 22x

heh didn't pay attention